If Jesus is God . . .

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

And which is more Godlike? The unspoiled mind of the child, or the jaded mind of the adult?

1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them 3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 18, 1-4

Edited December 27, 2010 by Some Old Guy

[HeatDeath 430]

An analogy I've found helpful for the relationship between God and Jesus is this.

Imagine that you're writing a book, and you want yourself, the author, to enter the book and interact with the characters. Obviously, you can't do that yourself. You're a human, and the book is a sequence of words. You won't fit.

What you can do, however, is to create an avatar - a character in the book that represents you. While this character is not you [being a sequence of sentences in a novel and not made of atoms and molecules], this character is, in a very real sense, one with you: it knows what you know, remembers what you remember, and responds in every situation the way you would respond. It is you, in a very real sense, even though it is also a different kind of being from you and is separate from you. This author-character is wholly and completely human, but also wholly and completely a character. It inherits your human free will, but is also completely deterministically controlled, being a character in a novel.

It seems to me that the relationship between an author-character in a novel, and the author outside the novel, captures exactly what Jesus said about His relationship with God - that He and His Father are one, but that His Father is and remains in Heaven, and that Jesus was both fully human and fully divine. Also, from the point of view of any other character in the novel, only the author-character can be said to have existed outside time, prior to the creation of the novel, the way Jesus was said by John to have been eternally preexistent.

Obviously the analogy breaks down in the corner cases, since human beings are obviously more complex than deterministic characters in a novel, but I think this captures a big part of the relationship between God and Jesus. I don't quite understand how the remaining part of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, fits into this, but I think this captures a big part of the relationship between God and Jesus Christ.

Edited December 27, 2010 by HeatDeath

[HeatDeath 430]

I'd rather not create a new post to ask another bible question so here goes: when God said that he created man in his own image, what does that mean?

I have a friend that is constantly saying that since he isn't so good and since God created him in his own image then God can't be so good either.

People never seem to remember that the "created in God's image ... and it was good" bit appears in Genesis 2. There's a big plot twist in Genesis 3 that kind of changes that.

As a result of the Fall, people, all people, even the best of us, and dark twisted shadows of what we were created to be. Your friend's "not-so-goodness", and mine for that matter, no more implies that God is not-so-good, than a madman in an asylum screaming that it is dark outside can dim the midday sun.

I've often wondered exactly what "created in God's image" did imply. It clearly can't apply to height, weight, gender or race, because all people are created in God's image. Even the mentally retarded carry God's image, often more clearly than "normal" people. There is no injury or mutilation you can do to a person that will eliminate their resemblance to God, in that sense, short of killing them.

If human beings still have any resemblance to God [and I think we do. The Fall did not utterly destroy our resemblance to God - we are still capable of some goodness], I believe it is our neural and mental architecture - the way our souls interact with our brains and the way subjective conscious experience works. We experience the present in a way that materialistic cognitive neuroscience can't even describe, let alone explain. There is clearly something supernatural going on in our moment-to-moment experience of the world around us.

Edited December 27, 2010 by HeatDeath

[DEDixon 39]

Hey Brother DEDixon,

I have to admit that when I read your friends quote that "since he isn't so good and since God created him in his own image then God can't be so good either", that it gave me a lighthearted chuckle! In my mind I picture (rightly or wrongly!) that your friend is quite good natured, and probably pretty clever! I may have to steal his line the next time I dig myself into another hole!

Anyways, I remember when I was taking a class on Genesis in college way back when...I had to write a brief summary on this same question which you've asked in your post. I still have that paper and I've posted it below, for whatever it is worth, in its entirety below... ... I don't know if I would answer the same question today as I answered at the time of this paper, but, I gave it a shot!

"As a young child I often wondered why God created the earth, and specifically why he created mankind. I often thought that God created mankind because he was lonely in Heaven, all by himself. I also believed he made the world for us to have a place to live with him. In my childhood home we also had a picture of Michelangelo’s ‘Creation of Man’ from the Sistine Chapel. I often wondered why Michelangelo painted God to look like an older man and why Adam looked so young. Truly, a child’s mind is wondrous! Now that I’m an adult who studies the bible, when I read Genesis 1:26, “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness…” I realize that God did not make us because he was lonely. Likewise when I read Genesis 1:27, “God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him…” I realize that God didn’t create mankind in his physical image, but rather in his spiritual image.

As an adult, when I began reading the bible seriously I was amazed that God said, “Let Us make man in Our image.” Why did God not continue with the same pattern of thought He utilized during His first five days of creation, by simply saying, “Let there be…”? There is a definite change of language in the sixth day regarding the creation of man. God seems to be conferring with someone regarding the creation of man, whereas the first five days of creation God appears to work alone. There is a special somberness reflected biblically with the creation of man in God’s image, exhibited through this consultation with this assembly of celestial beings, or heavenly council. According to the Interpreter’s Bible Commentary, “What seems to be significant is the idea that for the creation of man it was fitting, if not necessary, that there should be something like cooperation on the part of the whole company of Heaven.” Obviously my boyhood thoughts were incorrect! God did not make man because He was lonely, for He was with the celestial beings which comprised the ‘whole company of Heaven.’ Specifically though, I considered this to be the first Biblical reference to our God of the Trinity; Father, Son and Holy Spirit, from whence we would receive mankind’s image. The Interpreters Bible Commentary agrees, “A further possibility should be considered: whether there is not here an attempt to give expression to the feeling that God could not be adequately expressed as a bare unity.” The Wesley Notes of the Bible also agrees that Genesis 1:26 points to the Trinity, “’Let Us make man in Our image’…the three persons of the Trinity consult about it, and concur in it; because man, when he was made was to be dedicated and devoted to the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.” It is this spirit of our Triune God which truly encapsulates the image of God which mankind will receive. The biblical evidence that God was not alone at the moment of man’s creation is further evidenced in Genesis 3:22. Following Adam and Eve’s betrayal, God spoke, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.” Clearly, God again refers to other celestial beings at this point. The fact that God is referencing other celestial beings is again proven two verses later in Genesis 3:24, “So He drove the man out; and at the east of the Garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.” This realization that the Triune God of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit did not create mankind out of his own loneliness, as I thought when I was a child, brought me great comfort.

As I continued to study the bible, I still wondered exactly why God created mankind in ‘His own image”. As Genesis 1:26 clearly states, after God conferred with the ‘Heavenly Council’ it was agreed that He will create man, “in Our image”. One might then determine that the other celestial beings were already made in the image of God as well, which mankind must share to some extent. Yet, in Genesis 1:27 God clearly states that He, God alone and only God, created mankind, “God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.” The New Jerome Biblical Commentary agrees that God communicated with other celestial beings prior to His own act of creating man, “The Bible accepts the picture of the assembly, but Yahweh alone makes the decision.” This exemplifies the sovereign nature of our Triune Lord, as he creates mankind through His own creative act and in His own image of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, endowing mankind with His nature and His image.

Like many youngsters, I also wanted to touch God. The Interpreters Bible Commentary states, “The early thinkers about God thought of him as corporeal. So does the child.” As an adult, I realized that God’s creation of mankind in His image means much more than corporeal identity. The Interpreters Bible commentary continues to elaborate, “The image included likeness to Him in spiritual powers – the powers of thought, the powers of communication, the power of self-transcendence.” Therefore my picture of God was expanded from my childhood vision; He created mankind in His image at the soul level, not simply corporeally. God created man’s body first to serve as the vessel for the soul which He would breathe into us as the breath of life. It is in this manner that we are able to holy, because we are endowed with His Image of holiness. The New Interpreters Bible Study elaborates on the thoughts of church father Augustine, “Augustine, for example, believed that the image of God referred to the rational soul, placed by God in the human body, which was created out of the ground.” Wesley’s Notes on the Bible concurs with Augustine’s thoughts, “’God’s image and After his likeness’ are two ways to express the same thing. God’s image upon man consists: 1) In his nature, not that of his body, for God has not a body, but that of his soul. The soul is a spirit, an intelligent, immortal spirit, an active spirit, herein resembling God the Father of the spirits and the soul of the world. 2) In his place and in his authority. Let us make man in our image and let him have dominion. As he has the government of the inferior creatures, he is as it were God’s representative on earth.”

As a child, I had a great heart for God. As an adult, I still have a great heart for God. However, as an adult I’ve now the ability to read God’s word and understand in a more faithful and intellectual manner. Truly, mankind has been blessed with the image of God. It is a responsibility we should joyfully accept!"

Bibliography

George Arthur Buttrick, Nolan B. Harmon. The Interpreters Bible, a Commentary in Twelve Volumes. Nashville, Tennessee: Abingdon Press, 1952.

John Wesley, G. Roger Schoenhals. Wesley's Notes on the Bible. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1987.

Raymond Brown, Joseph Fitzmyer, Roland Murphy. The New Jerome Biblical Commentary. Upper Saddle River, New Jersey: Pearson Education Company, 1990.

Walter Harrison, Donald Senior, Abraham Smith. The New Interpreters Bible Study. Nashville, Tennessee: Abingdon Press, 2003.

Blessings!

Thank you. I didn't think the answer would be so complicated, but I'm glad it is complicated. It means that after I share this with my friend of 33 years, I can tell him that he can view this to mean anything he wants, however not to bet his paycheck (he lives in Reno) on his view.

[faust-yusov 103]

We experience the present in a way that materialistic cognitive neuroscience can't even describe, let alone explain. There is clearly something supernatural going on in our moment-to-moment experience of the world around us.

I'm not really sure what this means. Could you elaborate?

[DEDixon 39]

People never seem to remember that the "created in God's image ... and it was good" bit appears in Genesis 2. There's a big plot twist in Genesis 3 that kind of changes that.

As a result of the Fall, people, all people, even the best of us, and dark twisted shadows of what we were created to be. Your friend's "not-so-goodness", and mine for that matter, no more implies that God is not-so-good, than a madman in an asylum screaming that it is dark outside can dim the midday sun.

I've often wondered exactly what "created in God's image" did imply. It clearly can't apply to height, weight, gender or race, because all people are created in God's image. Even the mentally retarded carry God's image, often more clearly than "normal" people. There is no injury or mutilation you can do to a person that will eliminate their resemblance to God, in that sense, short of killing them.

If human beings still have any resemblance to God [and I think we do. The Fall did not utterly destroy our resemblance to God - we are still capable of some goodness], I believe it is our neural and mental architecture - the way our souls interact with our brains and the way subjective conscious experience works. We experience the present in a way that materialistic cognitive neuroscience can't even describe, let alone explain. There is clearly something supernatural going on in our moment-to-moment experience of the world around us.

Thanks, will send this one to him too... he'll be very dizzy before sundown.

[sandinista! 1,816]

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Who did "our" include?

it's a figure of speech, nothing more. it exists in other holy books as well, where the Oneness of God is established.

And in the Hebrew Bible (Tanach), in the verses Genesis 1:26 and 3:22 and 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, God spoke in the majestic plural, using the first person plural instead of the first person singular, to indicate His majesty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_we

[Danno 1,228]

it's a figure of speech, nothing more. it exists in other holy books as well, where the Oneness of God is established.

IS this another figure of speech?

<< John 1 >>

King James Version

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

[sandinista! 1,816]

IS this another figure of speech?

<< John 1 >>

King James Version

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

yr aware of the differences between the tanakh and the new testament, right, and the beliefs of the writers of those books? good grief.

the comma johanneum, btw, which is widely held to be one of the big "trinity reference" verses of the new testament, in the fifth chapter of 1 john, was not added until the 9th century. earlier texts don't include it.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

IS this another figure of speech?

<< John 1 >>

King James Version

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

Yes.

John (or rather the author that wrote in the style of John) was a Gnostic. So, here, the Word refers to the Messiah, the Word made flesh, Jesus.

John refers to John the Baptist, not the Apostle John.

Edited December 28, 2010 by Some Old Guy

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I appreciate the exchange, the very thoughtful contributions, and the civility from each of you Now, I have another question. If there is a God,even be He one of a nuanced trinity, why not just worship God in lieu of His human manifestation as Jesus on earth?

Edited December 28, 2010 by Sofiyya

[BishopM 114]

Yes.

John (or rather the author that wrote in the style of John) was a Gnostic. So, here, the Word refers to the Messiah, the Word made flesh, Jesus.

John refers to John the Baptist, not the Apostle John.

Ya, its pretty obvious when reading the Gospel of John that this beginning verse probably came from earlier prose not written by the disciple John (maybe it is from the Gnostic author), and that the ending of the Gospel of John is also a later addition. I think the 'middle' though was written by the disciple John.

Yep, agree 100% with your second point this this verse points to John the Baptist, not John the Apostle.

Blessings

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

We are all God.

[BishopM 114]

We are all God.

According to some faiths and some traditions...yes.

[mawilson 2,133]

If there is a God,even be He one of a nuanced trinity, why not just worship God in lieu of His human manifestation as Jesus on earth?

Because His human manifestation said so?

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

--John 14:6