School: permission slip required to say pledge of allegiance.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

I say that about half the time you post. I don't see what the big deal is about saying the pledge of allegiance. Does it make one person a better American because he says it?

It is a funny thing that you must pledge allegiance to receive citizenship. But once you have it, you have the right to say whatever you like about your relationship with your country.

[james&olya 1,121]

It is a funny thing that you must pledge allegiance to receive citizenship. But once you have it, you have the right to say whatever you like about your relationship with your country.

Not funny at all. One of the best things about this country actually. The freedom to say what you actually believe.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Not funny at all. One of the best things about this country actually. The freedom to say what you actually believe.

When you said this Nixon and Lennon popped into my head. But at the end of the day Lennon won out so its still true.

[Danno 1,228]

Not funny at all. One of the best things about this country actually. The freedom to say what you actually believe.

But you didn't address his point that you MUST say it to get citizenship.

And it should also be noted, adults have a but more "rights" than children in school do.

[faust-yusov 103]

But you didn't address his point that you MUST say it to get citizenship.

And it should also be noted, adults have a but more "rights" than children in school do.

Ignoring its rather inocuous presence in the citizenship rites, and outside of government, adults need not say it. It is not the mandatory creed that initiates the working day.

To paraphrase Christopher Hitchens, it's that they want it in the schools that exposes the conceit of their agenda.

Edited December 23, 2010 by faust-yusov

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Fun fact for the day:

The pledge was written by a socialist.

[james&olya 1,121]

But you didn't address his point that you MUST say it to get citizenship.

I think that most of us that don't agree with requiring children or other citizens to recite the pledge are still OK with the words for us personally (I leave out the later addition of the under god thing) as long as it is voluntary. And I personally think maybe the one place it is appropriate for our country to require some sort of affirmation of loyalty is at the point of becoming a naturalized citizen. I would be interested to hear other opinions, maybe there is much I have yet to learn on this.

[luckytxn 2,265]

It is pretty moronic to even think that nowadays it has come to this. It is pledging allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. If someone doesn't want to pledge their allegiance then....don't

[Danno 1,228]

I think that most of us that don't agree with requiring children or other citizens to recite the pledge are still OK with the words for us personally (I leave out the later addition of the under god thing) as long as it is voluntary. And I personally think maybe the one place it is appropriate for our country to require some sort of affirmation of loyalty is at the point of becoming a naturalized citizen. I would be interested to hear other opinions, maybe there is much I have yet to learn on this.

And whats your hangup with acknowledging this is "one nation under God"?

[james&olya 1,121]

And whats your hangup with acknowledging this is "one nation under God"?

I don't personally believe in a cosmic super-daddy. I do respect the right of others to believe in whatever god they find makes sense or brings them comfort.

I have a problem with inserting this in the pledge. Particularly if this pledge becomes an official government statement. Our constitution is supposed to prevent the government from being involved in religion. What is even worse is the damage it does to the noble sentiment of the phrase into which it was dumped. "One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all". Putting this reference to (the presumably christian) God contradicts the preceding word in that it then divides us into believers and unbelievers. It makes the phrase an oxymoron! It also suggests that those who don't accept God may not expect liberty and justice either. It has absolutely no business being there!

[trillium13 84]

The Bellamy salute:

More on the pledge:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

[Danno 1,228]

I don't personally believe in a cosmic super-daddy. I do respect the right of others to believe in whatever god they find makes sense or brings them comfort.

I have a problem with inserting this in the pledge. Particularly if this pledge becomes an official government statement. Our constitution is supposed to prevent the government from being involved in religion. What is even worse is the damage it does to the noble sentiment of the phrase into which it was dumped. "One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all". Putting this reference to (the presumably christian) God contradicts the preceding word in that it then divides us into believers and unbelievers. It makes the phrase an oxymoron! It also suggests that those who don't accept God may not expect liberty and justice either. It has absolutely no business being there!

See your problem is.. you have a concept that God or anything close to it should have no place in our government..... I understand that concept, but it's not part of our history or documents.

For instance,

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights

If everyone had believed as you do, your rights would come from Govt.. and what Government gives, it can take.

Just for fun why don't you post the preamble to your states Constitution and see if you can do with without bumping into this same concept.

[james&olya 1,121]

See your problem is.. you have a concept that God or anything close to it should have no place in our government..... I understand that concept, but it's not part of our history or documents.

For instance,

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights

If everyone had believed as you do, your rights would come from Govt.. and what Government gives, it can take.

Just for fun why don't you post the preamble to your states Constitution and see if you can do with without bumping into this same concept.

Creator is not defined here. I accept that my 'creator' was a biological process that has ever more abundant objective, scientific evidence for its role in producing life. This does not define religion. 'Government shall make no law regarding an establishment of religion'!! This is in our constitution. Don't you believe in our constitution? Or maybe the only part you believe is a very ambiguous single sentence that talks about well-regulated militias and citizens having guns.

[Danno 1,228]

Creator is not defined here. I accept that my 'creator' was a biological process that has ever more abundant objective, scientific evidence for its role in producing life. This does not define religion. 'Government shall make no law regarding an establishment of religion'!! This is in our constitution. Don't you believe in our constitution? Or maybe the only part you believe is a very ambiguous single sentence that talks about well-regulated militias and citizens having guns.

Come on now... you are not having an honest conversation, do you really believe the founders intent was that your rights came from some biological swamp you evolved from?

Since you forgot to post your states preamble, allow me.

Michigan- We, the people of the State of Michigan, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom, and earnestly desiring to secure these blessings undiminished to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this constitution.

You have an interesting concept on these things, it's just not American.

Edited December 23, 2010 by Danno

[james&olya 1,121]

Come on now... you are not having an honest conversation, do you really believe the founders intent was that your rights came from some biological swamp you evolved from?

Since you forgot to post your states preamble, allow me.

Michigan- We, the people of the State of Michigan, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom, and earnestly desiring to secure these blessings undiminished to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this constitution.

You have an interesting concept on these things, it's just not American.

The US Constitution and bill of rights trumps state constitutions and especially their preambles! These statements aren't much more than ornamentation and do not carry force of law. And the founders of this country did not have the benefit of the science that has developed since they wrote the constitution. They did endorse the scientific method and sided with science when it was in conflict with religious views of their day. Regardless, they very clearly indicated that no laws were to be made regarding religion! This is officially a secular nation. You are free to believe in the god of your choice. We are not a christian nation, a buddhist, muslim, hindu, jewish, whatever nation! We are a free nation when it comes to religious belief. You are the one trying to revise history! And you are not the arbiter of whose beliefs are American!