When did Christianity stop being evil?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Nope, same God. And I didn't say the OT was irrelevant.

Here's something to consider. People could find a verse in the Bible and make it look like it's an angry religion. I'm sure people could find a verse in the holy books of every religion and do the same thing. How about, instead of just trying to pick apart each other's beliefs, we just talk to each other and learn from each other.

You'll notice that, in my first post to this thread, all I did was answer your question. I told you that Christianity is not evil; but the problem is the actions of people in the religion. Could the same be said of other religions? The question now is: Where do you want this discussion to go from here? Are we going to be civil? Or are we just trying to find fault with each other and our beliefs?

B.

I'm surprised that such a simple question lead you to believe that I'm being uncivil. First, here is your post, and, from there, I can explain why my question.

The answer to the question is simple. Christianity has NEVER been evil. There was no Christianity until there was Christ. And when he got here, he changed the message to one of peace. You know, "turn the other cheek", all of that. So, there has never, ever been a time that Christianity was not a religion of peace.

The real question is, "When will we Christians start being more Christ-like?"

The God of the first five books of the Bible, aka the OT, sent a message. Your inferred that His message was changed by Jesus, who is believed by orthodox Christians to be the human incarnate of God. We agree that Christianity as a distinct faith came about after Jesus, but my question dealt with what I saw in your post to say that the message of the God of the OT is not the same as the God of the NT. So, if they are the same God, why did His message change (which would make the message of the OT at least less relevant, if not irrelevant).

That caught my eye because a major reason why I posted this topic is to understand why some Christians I encounter here feel that they can dismiss edicts in their Bible as just stuff in the OT, and also dismiss two thousand years of worldwide bad acts in the name of Jesus as a bunch of old stuff they don't do anymore. The numerous atrocities that are attributed to Christian intolerance and prejudice against others don't seen to taint Christianity as evil, yet violent acts committed by Muslims easily taint Islam as evil.

That's where I'm coming from. I hope that helps.

[james&olya 1,121]

you are quite ignorant aren't you? You have no clue what I 'believe' but you can keep trying to guess. Until you actually figure it out, I would suggest not posting rubbish.

You know you aren't required to immediately prove my point don't you? :rofl:

[james&olya 1,121]

I'm surprised that such a simple question lead you to believe that I'm being uncivil. First, here is your post, and, from there, I can explain why my question.

The God of the first five books of the Bible, aka the OT, sent a message. Your inferred that His message was changed by Jesus, who is believed by orthodox Christians to be the human incarnate of God. We agree that Christianity as a distinct faith came about after Jesus, but my question dealt with what I saw in your post to say that the message of the God of the OT is not the same as the God of the NT. So, if they are the same God, why did His message change (which would make the message of the OT at least less relevant, if not irrelevant).

That caught my eye because a major reason why I posted this topic is to understand why some Christians I encounter here feel that they can dismiss edicts in their Bible as just stuff in the OT, and also dismiss two thousand years of worldwide bad acts in the name of Jesus as a bunch of old stuff they don't do anymore. The numerous atrocities that are attributed to Christian intolerance and prejudice against others don't seen to taint Christianity as evil, yet violent acts committed by Muslims easily taint Islam as evil.

That's where I'm coming from. I hope that helps.

Same issue with writing history books. If you look you may notice how the victors of major conflicts are the ones who get to write the books. If the history of christianity is written by christians it comes off a bit different than if that history is written from the perspective of the non-christian. This is true even when the writers are honestly trying to be objective and fair. It makes it rather difficult to solve some of these problems but we still need to try!

[Obama 2012 1,714]

You know you aren't required to immediately prove my point don't you? :rofl:

As I said, ignorant much? You prove my point, not the other way around. Nice try though. Typical liberal pull ####### out of my ####### post you have there.

Edited December 18, 2010 by Paul and Vanessa

[james&olya 1,121]

As I said, ignorant much? You prove my point, not the other way around. Nice try though. Typical liberal pull ####### out of my ####### post you have there.

:rofl: Nice try

[Sofiyya 1,687]

You know, the last line of your post really makes a solid point. I gave a sermon while I was visiting the Philippines, and I briefly touched on a similar point. Fair or not, people will tend to judge our religions based on our behavior. We can tell people what our religion teaches, but people will really judge us based on how we act. That is such an important observation you made.

A very good point made by you and Danno. People do judge religion by the acts of their adherents. How many adherents need be bad or good to make a proper judgment, though? For how long must they be good? And, how good or how bad?

I was born in 1953. As a Muslim child in VA, I was exposed to Christian prejudice on a daily basis. We were ruled by laws based on Christian norms; most stores were closed on Sundays because that was the day of worship. Liquor could not be sold on Sundays. Christian prayers opened the day at school; there was no tolerance for sharing my prayers with my classmates. Working class neighborhoods were segregated, as we most schools, and there were many venues where Blacks could not go because they were White only.

Sometimes, we were considered to be White, sometimes Black, depending on who was making the determination. That made life even more precarious for Black men, whose lives were considered to be cheap and easy taking by lynching or life in prison for something that a White would be slapped on the hand for. At least we weren't living in South Africa, or on Indian reservations, where Indian children were routinely taken from parents to be raised by White Christian families, "for their own good". The history of taming the Natives of this country was based on a doctrine intended to turn them into White Christians.

These rules and their application were based on beliefs that Christianity was superior to other faiths, and that God had given Whites dominance over non-Whites, who were the cursed descendents of Ham. That went hand in hand with the idea that lands full of heathens were meant for Christian conquest, colonialism and conversion. Discussions of Third World liberation from European domination were a daily occurance in most Muslim households.

I didn't much like Christians when I was a kid. In my life, they had not proven themselves to be very good people or respectful of people unlike themselves. Even though I was related to a few, and had married one, I still didn't think much of them, as a whole. A nasty incident in my early twenties sealed that impression for quite a while.

A close relative was abandoned by her husband for a woman closely involved with the Catholic Church. She ran off to another country with him, where they took up house together. His family sent him back to his wife, and during the time he remained in the US, she sent scores of letters imploring him to leave his pregnant wife and return to her. The letters spoke graphically of their sexual relationship, drug use and their deception re their adultery with her co-workers at the Catholic Relief Service (CRS).

After he left her again, my aunt copied her rival's letters, many written on CRS letterhead, and sent them to the CRS office in NY, prompting visit from the priest in charge of the area she served. He told her there was no offense in her acts since she and my uncle had not married in the Catholic Church, so were not really married. He defended her as a wonderful person, great employee and a fine example of a good Catholic. He implored my aunt to convert to Catholicism so that the true God could give her comfort. Then, he left and did nothing.

My aunt, being a very resourceful woman, make more copies of the letters and sent them to the CRS office overseas, addressing them to all the co-workers mentioned in the letters. The b!tch soon resigned; the priest who thought so highly of her called my aunt to complain that she had cost him a valued employee.

Not so much. The women, who last wrote to my aunt to express remorse that my uncle has subsequently cheated on her, is to this day, employed by the CRS in Dallas, ironically, in the area of immigration counseling. Some of you may know her, but she will remain unnamed here.

Judge them by their deeds, yes. I know without a doubt that there are millions of good Christians. Yet, I have seen the worst of them. So, I can easily ask, when did Christianity stop being evil because Christians have been evil, uncaring, intolerant and oppressive in my lifetime, even as others have lived up to the Word. Which of the two should define the faith to those that don't share it?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

So I think the obvious point has been made here that most religions are not evil. Obviously in the history of the world you could say a few have been, such as MesoAmerican ones.

I'm guessing Soffiya is asking more along the lines, when did society consider Christianity good and Islam evil. I'd probably have to point to the breakdown of the strangle hold Catholic doctrine had on the religion. That period was actually quite similar to the Middle East and Persia of today. You have a group of power holders using the religion to retain power. Once the "Church" lost control of the state there was a clear difference (with the exception of N. Ireland).

So when will Society stop viewing Islam as evil? When governments like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Hamas, Iran no longer misuse the religion to control the people.

I understand your very valid point. But, why should the approximately 45 countries with a majority Muslim population be defined by a few who have a shaky relationship with the US and other western nations? The west needs to come to grips with the fact that what they believe doesn't drive the agenda of the rest of the world.

[Danno 1,228]

A very good point made by you and Danno. People do judge religion by the acts of their adherents. How many adherents need be bad or good to make a proper judgment, though? For how long must they be good? And, how good or how bad?

I was born in 1953. As a Muslim child in VA, I was exposed to Christian prejudice on a daily basis. We were ruled by laws based on Christian norms; most stores were closed on Sundays because that was the day of worship. Liquor could not be sold on Sundays. Christian prayers opened the day at school; there was no tolerance for sharing my prayers with my classmates. Working class neighborhoods were segregated, as we most schools, and there were many venues where Blacks could not go because they were White only.

Sometimes, we were considered to be White, sometimes Black, depending on who was making the determination. That made life even more precarious for Black men, whose lives were considered to be cheap and easy taking by lynching or life in prison for something that a White would be slapped on the hand for. At least we weren't living in South Africa, or on Indian reservations, where Indian children were routinely taken from parents to be raised by White Christian families, "for their own good". The history of taming the Natives of this country was based on a doctrine intended to turn them into White Christians.

These rules and their application were based on beliefs that Christianity was superior to other faiths, and that God had given Whites dominance over non-Whites, who were the cursed descendents of Ham. That went hand in hand with the idea that lands full of heathens were meant for Christian conquest, colonialism and conversion. Discussions of Third World liberation from European domination were a daily occurance in most Muslim households.

I didn't much like Christians when I was a kid. In my life, they had not proven themselves to be very good people or respectful of people unlike themselves. Even though I was related to a few, and had married one, I still didn't think much of them, as a whole. A nasty incident in my early twenties sealed that impression for quite a while.

A close relative was abandoned by her husband for a woman closely involved with the Catholic Church. She ran off to another country with him, where they took up house together. His family sent him back to his wife, and during the time he remained in the US, she sent scores of letters imploring him to leave his pregnant wife and return to her. The letters spoke graphically of their sexual relationship, drug use and their deception re their adultery with her co-workers at the Catholic Relief Service (CRS).

After he left her again, my aunt copied her rival's letters, many written on CRS letterhead, and sent them to the CRS office in NY, prompting visit from the priest in charge of the area she served. He told her there was no offense in her acts since she and my uncle had not married in the Catholic Church, so were not really married. He defended her as a wonderful person, great employee and a fine example of a good Catholic. He implored my aunt to convert to Catholicism so that the true God could give her comfort. Then, he left and did nothing.

My aunt, being a very resourceful woman, make more copies of the letters and sent them to the CRS office overseas, addressing them to all the co-workers mentioned in the letters. The b!tch soon resigned; the priest who thought so highly of her called my aunt to complain that she had cost him a valued employee.

Not so much. The women, who last wrote to my aunt to express remorse that my uncle has subsequently cheated on her, is to this day, employed by the CRS in Dallas, ironically, in the area of immigration counseling. Some of you may know her, but she will remain unnamed here.

Judge them by their deeds, yes. I know without a doubt that there are millions of good Christians. Yet, I have seen the worst of them. So, I can easily ask, when did Christianity stop being evil because Christians have been evil, uncaring, intolerant and oppressive in my lifetime, even as others have lived up to the Word. Which of the two should define the faith to those that don't share it?

Thanks for giving that personal insight, unfortunately you have most Americans at a disadvantage.

you have the experience of, a AMuslim growing up in a somewhat Christian culture while few Americans who are Christian have the experience of growing up in a heavily Muslim Culture.

I'm wondering if their -School prayer time is so diverse?

and how embracing Muslim cultures would have been of Christians today or back in the 1950's?

As you relayed the Story of the Catholic woman who ran off with your Uncle...... Do you credit her actions to her Christian background or to her failed Character?

I think when most people see these actions in others (as well as ourselves)... we know the person is not living up to their faith..... and even unbelievers will call them a hypocrite.

... which kinda makes my point.

Edited December 19, 2010 by Danno

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Thanks for giving that personal insight, unfortunately you have most Americans at a disadvantage.

you have the experience of, a AMuslim growing up in a somewhat Christian culture while few Americans who are Christian have the experience of growing up in a heavily Muslim Culture.

My first husband (pbuh) was a Christian raised in a predominantly Muslim country. He married a Muslim and became an American. Our shared experence of being the Other was one of the things that kept us close.

I'm wondering if their -School prayer time is so diverse?

Perhaps you would be surprised at how many MENA Muslim children attend Christian schools. I did for a while. One of my best friends is a teacher at a Christian school in Morocco. She is Muslim and so are most of her students. Diversity in the Muslim community is more common than many are lead to believe.

and how embracing Muslim cultures would have been of Christians today or back in the 1950's?

See above.

As you relayed the Story of the Catholic woman who ran off with your Uncle...... Do you credit her actions to her Christian background or to her failed Character?

I was more shocked by the priest who defended her than I was by her trashy ways. He's expected to represent the faith in ways she was not, and he failed. But, all the while, he quoted the position of the Church as one that did not consider non-Catholics to be worthy of intervention when transgressed upon by a Catholic.

I think when most people see these actions in others (as well as ourselves)... we know the person is not living up to their faith..... and even unbelievers will call them a hypocrite.

... which kinda makes my point.

I didn't dispute your point, just made my own to show that bad Christians can leave a bad impression of Christianity, too.

Edited December 19, 2010 by Sofiyya

[B_J 2,752]

Wow, where to begin.......

In the simplest terms, I think Jesus changed the OT by making it more than just following rules. I guess you could say he made it even more complex. You're supposed to follow the rules and do it for the right reason; because he has changed your heart.

The Christian faith really is one of peace; but people tend to mess it up. However, like Danno brought up, is the problem the Christian faith or failed Christian character?

I don't blame the Muslim faith for the failed character of terrorists; all I ask is that the same courtesy is returned. We all have more in common than we realize and, to paraphrase one of my Theology Professors, "We should stop beating each other up with Scripture."

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

I understand your very valid point. But, why should the approximately 45 countries with a majority Muslim population be defined by a few who have a shaky relationship with the US and other western nations? The west needs to come to grips with the fact that what they believe doesn't drive the agenda of the rest of the world.

Its even hard to define the West. I would say only the majorities in the US, France, Netherlands, Switzerland and maybe Germany (with its large Turkish population) hold such a view. I might be a bit naive, but I would think that if you asked the average Canadian if Islam is evil, they would say no.

[chri'stina 190]

I've asked this question before of those here who attack and demonize Islam, but it's never received even an attempt at an answer. Since Christianity has a history of all the evil things Islam is accused of condoning, including justification of slavery, child brides, conversion by the sword, murder of infidels, warfare in the name of Jesus, homophobia, male supremacy, etc., exactly when did Christianity stop being evil, or has it stopped being evil?

An honest discussion would be appreciated, especially since open mockery of Islam and Muslims by non-Muslims is allowed here, but Muslims questioning Christianity have been accused of provocative baiting, exposing a serious double standard censorship among the mods and posters.

Open mockery of Christianity happens all the time here too. We know how things go around here.

I am not saying you don't have a valid point. You do have a point. Some people here can't seem to make a difference between one group doing evil acts in the name of religion vs another group. As a Christian, I openly admit that there are Christians doing things that I find to be against Jesus' teachings all the time, and even horrible things in the name of God, sadly, and I would like it to stop. The Christians who are mean or do wrong things make people think bad of all Christians, all you have to do is read some of the threads like religion vs superstition to find that out.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

And so terrorism and bombing of abortion clinic's isnt as "Radical" and Islamic terrorism. Rigggghhhhtttt.

And from a christian fundamentalist point of view, killing doctors are ok?

Im sorry but in my opinion, both islamic and christian religions (Abrahamic based) are the same.

Edited to remove what might be taken as a personal attack, grammar and spelling.

Well you misread my post or it wasn't clear due to brevity. There are some Christian groups that do rival Radical Islam and engage in terrorism. However I don't see the level of denial or knee jerk defensiveness from mainstream Christianity regarding those types of groups.

And there is the matter of scale. Mainstream Christians don't cheer abortion clinic bombers or have any problem condemning killers of abortion doctors.

[BishopM 114]

A very good point made by you and Danno. People do judge religion by the acts of their adherents. How many adherents need be bad or good to make a proper judgment, though? For how long must they be good? And, how good or how bad?

I was born in 1953. As a Muslim child in VA, I was exposed to Christian prejudice on a daily basis. We were ruled by laws based on Christian norms; most stores were closed on Sundays because that was the day of worship. Liquor could not be sold on Sundays. Christian prayers opened the day at school; there was no tolerance for sharing my prayers with my classmates. Working class neighborhoods were segregated, as we most schools, and there were many venues where Blacks could not go because they were White only.

Sometimes, we were considered to be White, sometimes Black, depending on who was making the determination. That made life even more precarious for Black men, whose lives were considered to be cheap and easy taking by lynching or life in prison for something that a White would be slapped on the hand for. At least we weren't living in South Africa, or on Indian reservations, where Indian children were routinely taken from parents to be raised by White Christian families, "for their own good". The history of taming the Natives of this country was based on a doctrine intended to turn them into White Christians.

These rules and their application were based on beliefs that Christianity was superior to other faiths, and that God had given Whites dominance over non-Whites, who were the cursed descendents of Ham. That went hand in hand with the idea that lands full of heathens were meant for Christian conquest, colonialism and conversion. Discussions of Third World liberation from European domination were a daily occurance in most Muslim households.

I didn't much like Christians when I was a kid. In my life, they had not proven themselves to be very good people or respectful of people unlike themselves. Even though I was related to a few, and had married one, I still didn't think much of them, as a whole. A nasty incident in my early twenties sealed that impression for quite a while.

A close relative was abandoned by her husband for a woman closely involved with the Catholic Church. She ran off to another country with him, where they took up house together. His family sent him back to his wife, and during the time he remained in the US, she sent scores of letters imploring him to leave his pregnant wife and return to her. The letters spoke graphically of their sexual relationship, drug use and their deception re their adultery with her co-workers at the Catholic Relief Service (CRS).

After he left her again, my aunt copied her rival's letters, many written on CRS letterhead, and sent them to the CRS office in NY, prompting visit from the priest in charge of the area she served. He told her there was no offense in her acts since she and my uncle had not married in the Catholic Church, so were not really married. He defended her as a wonderful person, great employee and a fine example of a good Catholic. He implored my aunt to convert to Catholicism so that the true God could give her comfort. Then, he left and did nothing.

My aunt, being a very resourceful woman, make more copies of the letters and sent them to the CRS office overseas, addressing them to all the co-workers mentioned in the letters. The b!tch soon resigned; the priest who thought so highly of her called my aunt to complain that she had cost him a valued employee.

Not so much. The women, who last wrote to my aunt to express remorse that my uncle has subsequently cheated on her, is to this day, employed by the CRS in Dallas, ironically, in the area of immigration counseling. Some of you may know her, but she will remain unnamed here.

Judge them by their deeds, yes. I know without a doubt that there are millions of good Christians. Yet, I have seen the worst of them. So, I can easily ask, when did Christianity stop being evil because Christians have been evil, uncaring, intolerant and oppressive in my lifetime, even as others have lived up to the Word. Which of the two should define the faith to those that don't share it?

Thanks for sharing that Sister Sofiyya. +1

Unfortunately, it would seem that most Christians have a similar experience with their own sect (mine is Catholic, and certainly no exception) where their Priets/Pastors have acted inproperly accordinging to the tenets of their own faith. My own personal experiences of 'wrong' in the Church came when I was a young teen in the 70s and it certainly drove me away from the Church for the next 1.5 decades or so. Eventually though you have to judge the faith by its doctrines and not be its 'flock'.

However, when I think of religion (all religions) I do believe that they are all based upon civility and peace, not evil. While I am Catholic, I came to this conclusion through a study of the faith, and studies of other faiths. I don't doubt is that God exists, but as for religion, I believe that God speaks through them to individuals and individuals should align themselves with the faith that speaks to them in the clearest manner. Ya...I know...that can open a can of worms. But, I believe that faiths need to be questioned and held accountable for their teachings more than the way their teachings are distorted by individuals. So, to that end, I don't find one faith to be greater than the other, but I do find Catholicism to be greater for me personally. Again, I'm highly ecumenical, which unfortunately seems to be a trait that has fallen to the wayside in modern Christianity....

Blessings,

BishopM

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

I'm highly ecumenical, which unfortunately seems to be a trait that has fallen to the wayside in modern Christianity....

Blessings,

BishopM

What do you mean by this ambiguous word? One of my favorite theological writers, Joseph Campbell, would declare himself to be "ecumenical", without being religious. Once asked what was his "favorite" religion, he stated that he no longer has the naiveté to prefer any one religion, although he could find the similarity of mythology in all religions.

Peace and Love to you, Brother Mark

Edited December 19, 2010 by Some Old Guy