Big Government, Big Business Both Evil: Nassim Taleb

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Yes, if life were so simple as to always be a good judge of that.

It actually is, but too many laws and "entitlements" (i/e taking liberty away from others for your benefit) have blinded people these days.

[^_^ 5,021]

I define Big Government as the amount of money spent by the government annually expressed a percentage of GDP.

Anything greater than 20 percent is Big Government. Right now we're close to 45. France is close to 60.

We can all argue over the percentage value, but I think it's unarguable that this is the right approach to defining 'big government'.

[james&olya 1,121]

I have not read the book, maybe it is good, but while agreeing about the potential dangers from big government and big business, I think he may be missing the point. Power abhors a vacuum and if government does not control then corporations will. The issue then is accountability. Who does the government serve, who does the corporation serve? While obviously not guaranteed, there is a much greater chance that government can be held accountable to its citizens than corporations. It is the responsibility of the citizen to demand that accountability from his government. Yes, government can be evil!! But we have an opportunity in our country to demand better. I fear that the trend is away from accountability and I see the eagerness of the tea party to bash government and turn over control of our lives to corporations as only accelerating that process. But so many people are SO ignorant of the facts it makes it difficult to stop. (Tea party protesters carrying signs saying "Keep your government hands off my medicare"!!)

[Obama 2012 1,714]

I have not read the book, maybe it is good, but while agreeing about the potential dangers from big government and big business, I think he may be missing the point. Power abhors a vacuum and if government does not control then corporations will. The issue then is accountability. Who does the government serve, who does the corporation serve? While obviously not guaranteed, there is a much greater chance that government can be held accountable to its citizens than corporations. It is the responsibility of the citizen to demand that accountability from his government. Yes, government can be evil!! But we have an opportunity in our country to demand better. I fear that the trend is away from accountability and I see the eagerness of the tea party to bash government and turn over control of our lives to corporations as only accelerating that process. But so many people are SO ignorant of the facts it makes it difficult to stop. (Tea party protesters carrying signs saying "Keep your government hands off my medicare"!!)

This government stopped being held accountable long ago. This is not a government of the people and far from it.

We have a constitutional item that protects us from the Federal Government. The key is finding a group with the balls to use it. It's a scary idea, but one that the founders of this country deemed a necessary evil in case the government did get out of control once again.

[^_^ 5,021]

Power abhors a vacuum. That's sounds like you're making a powerful point, but are you?

Let's say government gives up on one of its current 'powers'. Let's say starting Jan 1 your state government no longer requires that you carry auto insurance. So do we have a power vacuum that will now be filled by some evil and malevolent corporate force of darkness? Tell us how that works because I'd love to hear. No private corporation can step in and enforce a mandate because... they don't have the authority.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Power abhors a vacuum. That's sounds like you're making a powerful point, but are you?

Let's say government gives up on one of its current 'powers'. Let's say starting Jan 1 your state government no longer requires that you carry auto insurance. So do we have a power vacuum that will now be filled by some evil and malevolent corporate force of darkness? Tell us how that works because I'd love to hear. No private corporation can step in and enforce a mandate because... they don't have the authority.

Corporations have financial power which can influence govenment officials.

At the end of the day, the government becomes the dangerous force no matter what.

Government is influenced these days by whomever has the biggest check book. That's not the American poeple, that's corporate America. As has been pointed out before, look how many senators come in of modest means and become millionaires.

[james&olya 1,121]

Power abhors a vacuum. That's sounds like you're making a powerful point, but are you?

Let's say government gives up on one of its current 'powers'. Let's say starting Jan 1 your state government no longer requires that you carry auto insurance. So do we have a power vacuum that will now be filled by some evil and malevolent corporate force of darkness? Tell us how that works because I'd love to hear. No private corporation can step in and enforce a mandate because... they don't have the authority.

You want to surrender your right to know that if you are injured by another person in an auto accident that now the other person is free to deprive you of compensation? Of course it is more complicated than that and varies in every state, but be assured, the consequences of government (collective action of society) giving up this 'power' may not be to your liking. Of course, corporations will be only too happy to charge you much higher insurance to protct you.

Corporations have financial power which can influence govenment officials.

At the end of the day, the government becomes the dangerous force no matter what.

Government is influenced these days by whomever has the biggest check book. That's not the American poeple, that's corporate America. As has been pointed out before, look how many senators come in of modest means and become millionaires.

Paul, we don't often agree but I am with you on this. I think the recent scotus decision giving corporations almost unlimited influence in our electoral process guarantees this will get much worse.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Paul, we don't often agree but I am with you on this. I think the recent scotus decision giving corporations almost unlimited influence in our electoral process guarantees this will get much worse.

That decision is meaningless. That's just regarding advertising. I'm not influenced by political ads.... I know many sheep are, but meh.

The problem I have is when these senators/house members get under the table kickbacks from corporations/activist groups. That's the problem. It needs to be made criminal if not treasonous. Technically it is illegal, but it still happens because the oversight is done by the government themselves.

It's kind of ilke that big secret. Everyone does it, just no one talks about it... "What happens in Vegas....." Sucks for us though.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

You want to surrender your right to know that if you are injured by another person in an auto accident that now the other person is free to deprive you of compensation? Of course it is more complicated than that and varies in every state, but be assured, the consequences of government (collective action of society) giving up this 'power' may not be to your liking. Of course, corporations will be only too happy to charge you much higher insurance to protct you.

Corporations/insurance companies already charge out the butt in some areas.

I think liabilty insurance is silly to be honest. Insurance should be for you and you alone. We have civil lawsuits if you want to sue for additional damages. It's smarter to cover yourself than rely on someone else. It's why there's "uninsured motorist" policies even today. Where would insurance companies be without liability inurance? Think of that lost revenue for them...

Look at things like seatbelts... The excuse is for "safety" but that's an insurance influenced law. Insurance companies lobby for laws like that. The same with motorcycle helmet laws, etc. They win the day with studies that say what fits the bill.

Look at anti-smoking laws. Phillip Morris supports a lot of them and helps write a lot of them. Why? Because the laws are structured so that smaller companies will be shut down and they will reign supreme because of their size. The laws don't hurt them as much as they help them.

Many laws have a lobby and plenty more along the way have a lobby pushing an agenda. Hell look at the BIG Pharma and the health care law... Congress handed them a silver platter on that one...

[mawilson 2,133]

Look at things like seatbelts... The excuse is for "safety" but that's an insurance influenced law. Insurance companies lobby for laws like that. The same with motorcycle helmet laws, etc. They win the day with studies that say what fits the bill.

Look at anti-smoking laws. Phillip Morris supports a lot of them and helps write a lot of them. Why? Because the laws are structured so that smaller companies will be shut down and they will reign supreme because of their size. The laws don't hurt them as much as they help them.

Out of all the examples of governmental failures and abuses of power, you chose seatbelts and smoking?

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Out of all the examples of governmental failures and abuses of power, you chose seatbelts and smoking?

The point is who influenced the laws.

[mawilson 2,133]

The point is who influenced the laws.

I understand, but seatbelts really do save lives, and smoking really is bad for you. It's not some government conspiracy.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

I understand, but seatbelts really do save lives, and smoking really is bad for you. It's not some government conspiracy.

Seatbelts also cause preventable injuries and cause deaths as well....

Smoking isn't bad for everyone either. It harms those who are effected by what's in it, but not everyone is effected.

Just because it's bad for you however, doesn't mean you should be stopped from doing it. That's government overstepping its bounds into your life. You're not harming anyone else but yourself and anyone who's around you, makes a choice to be around you. People seem to forget those last details.

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

In all this discussion about the evils of Big Government, perhaps we should also consider Big Business. To whom is BB accountable? Nominally, to its shareholders, but when these shareholders are disengaged, passive, occasionally disenfranchised through poor regulatory mechanisms and overly complex proxy voting processes, or just plain ignorant, management is going to get its way. Did you know that majority voting is not yet mandated in this country for director elections? Although many large companies have now adopted majority voting (through the concerted effort of shareholders), there is still a plurality voting standard at some large companies. Under such a system, all it takes is one --ONE! -- vote in favour of a director to elect or re-elect (and it usually is re-elect) him to the board. Does that sound like shareholder democracy to you?

How can we hold Big Business accountable when there are not adequate tools to do so, and the owners of the company -- the shareholders -- don't give a f^ck because they can't see how engaging with a company is in their interests?

(Sorry, this is what I do for a living and I get hopping mad sometimes about it.)

[Obama 2012 1,714]

In all this discussion about the evils of Big Government, perhaps we should also consider Big Business. To whom is BB accountable? Nominally, to its shareholders, but when these shareholders are disengaged, passive, occasionally disenfranchised through poor regulatory mechanisms and overly complex proxy voting processes, or just plain ignorant, management is going to get its way. Did you know that majority voting is not yet mandated in this country for director elections? Although many large companies have now adopted majority voting (through the concerted effort of shareholders), there is still a plurality voting standard at some large companies. Under such a system, all it takes is one --ONE! -- vote in favour of a director to elect or re-elect (and it usually is re-elect) him to the board. Does that sound like shareholder democracy to you?

How can we hold Big Business accountable when there are not adequate tools to do so, and the owners of the company -- the shareholders -- don't give a f^ck because they can't see how engaging with a company is in their interests?

(Sorry, this is what I do for a living and I get hopping mad sometimes about it.)

people make a choice to invest in a particular company or not. It's up to those investors to jump on board or jump off the train if they don't like a way a company is run.