Superstition and religion

[Peikko 1,575]

You sound like one of those people who want to rehabilitate the public image of communism.

Ah, a leap of logic rather than faith. No, I don't believe that communism is an answer to anything. However, to suggest that what occurred in Russia and China was in fact communism (as envisioned by Karl Marx) is indeed a stretch I think one would be hard pressed to describe either regime as anything other than dictatorships.

[Captain Oates 911]

You sound like one of those people who want to rehabilitate the public image of communism.

Better than trying to refurbish the image of the inquisition as a mere wrong turn in the catholic church which has ruined so many people's lives

The church and communism both are beyond salvation and on the way out

Edited December 16, 2010 by Alan the Red

[Peikko 1,575]

Hey, I'm always good for a challenge. While I have severe doubts that this will happen, I promise to admit if I ended up in church on Sunday.

Many atheists end up in Church on sundays, that's no proof of anything

[_Simpson_ 250]

I don't accept the equivalence.

If MR A says that god is a giant hamster that is over 20 trillion times as large as the sun and eats only peanuts, and over 6 zillion galaxies are devoted only to the growing of those peanuts, and he has a girlfriend called Lulu who weighs 0.2 ounces and they have 'done it' every 12 seconds for the last z trillion years without getting bored, I am entitled to say that my non-belief in that is BETTER than MR A's belief - and I will get universal votes for my position.

I have no evidence, as he has no evidence, but the law of probability or stretched credulity says my position is BETTER than his and I win easily

So two people can assert different positions with neither of them having ANY evidence - and yet one of them can be the hands down winner. The other has not been proved wrong but is still delusional.

Or in law it's called circumstantial evidence and plenty of people have been executed on that.

Now about this old guy who sits on a cloud and makes married women virgins pregnant and watches us and gets his son from the married pregnant virgin nailed to a cross in the bronze age so that we will behave better....

He has clearly failed in that because 1400 years later we were burning humans alive if they didn't agree with the story and expressed doubt - which is a pointer because what's the point being god and a failure ?

I was not referring to your peanut loving hamster God or the the God they speak of in the bible. I'm talking in general terms. Was there a creator of the first particle that exploded or did this first particle explode without reason to how it got there. How does something come from nothing explain that to me and you might have grounds for telling people there isnt a God.

[Peikko 1,575]

Whether people want to accept it or not, Christians and other religious folks have been persecuted for having faith in places like China in the not too distant past. I'd say China's image has changed somewhat, but I knew people who actually taped bibles to their bodies several times to smuggle them into China (in the 80's and 90's) to give to churches who were illegally meeting in basements, who really wanted bibles. It's not made up. I'd say that is an oppressive atheistic rule.

China oppressed all kinds of people for all kinds of things, including for example being educated or cultured. Christians who were persecuted were numerically insignificant and certainly they were not singled out over and above others.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Man . . . four years of studying philosophy, just because I really desired so, and now I feel like this permeation prevents me from answering the initial question without getting lost in the universe.

Not sure why superstition and religion are being compared here, but I'll take the ball and run with it.

Superstition and religion have one thing in common: both are beliefs in a power whose source operates outside the scope of human conception and outside from what science can explain. We may witness events and credit those with said source, but that's as far as it goes. Religion often speaks from having faith, superstition warns about events that will take place by disobeying something.

Generalized, yes, superstition and religion are almost the same. Religion is based closer to scriptures, superstition to folk believes and powers of the darkness in a non-negative, yet more mysterious connotation.

Yet religion outreaches the cause-and-event structure of superstition in that it tries to explain the "why are we here" thingi. Law is based on religion and religion is based on ethics. Try to answer this: if there was no law prohibiting you to kill another human being, would you kill them, or, in case you wouldn't, wouldn't you do it because a religious scripture tells you it is sin or prohibited, or wouldn't you do it because you know, deep inside, that it would be wrong.

These issues were covered by Immanuel Kant in his categorical imperative (a "must read" for anyone on a certain intellectual level), which IMHO is still the nexus of morality.

Religion has a negative connotation among "reasonable" people, to a large extend because we think in term of organized religion which in today's form has been mutilated beyond belief. In terms of the Bible, just read up on the First Council of Nicaea (325AD) and the Second Council of Constantinople, and you'll understand why reincarnation has been eliminated from it, maliciously and purposely .

Yet religion goes further than that. The pure belief that we are not a product of chance is a religious belief. Or, in nihilistic terms, the belief that there's nothing to it, is religion as well. it's like trying to free the mind from everything and thinking about nothing, absolutely nothing. Good luck with that! Hence, anything transcending what science -- to this day -- can explain reaches into religion.

Don't mix this up with the term supernatural. I can believe that there's a God, and he, she, it, or, in case God is not a "Being" (which makes the most sense, really) the unspoken, would be part of nature nonetheless, nothing outside of it.

So show me a person who's not religious, and I'll prove to you he or she is.

Very interesting and well written reply.

[Peikko 1,575]

I was not referring to your peanut loving hamster God or the the God they speak of in the bible. I'm talking in general terms. Was there a creator of the first particle that exploded or did this first particle explode without reason to how it got there. How does something come from nothing explain that to me and you might have grounds for telling people there isnt a God.

Seriously, that is a nonsensical question. Something did not come out of nothing, the universe is everything, always.

[_Simpson_ 250]

As has already been pointed out, that's simply not true. Postulating that something must exist despite the absence of anything but anecdotal and unverifiable witness evidence is much more silly than postulating that something doesn't exist based on current verifiable scientific theory and evidence. Much of current scientific thinking relies on one having an incredibly sophisticated understanding of theoretical physics and math so it's not really surprising there are few who can actually speak authoritatively on the subject but nonetheless, the science is there.

These scientific theories bring to a point where we still have to wonder if there is a God or not. How does something come from nothing.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I'd say that is an oppressive atheistic rule.

So, certain Islamic countries that ban the bible are actually atheistic?

[Captain Oates 911]

I was not referring to your peanut loving hamster God or the the God they speak of in the bible. I'm talking in general terms. Was there a creator of the first particle that exploded or did this first particle explode without reason to how it got there. How does something come from nothing explain that to me and you might have grounds for telling people there isnt a God.

David Attenborough the famed naturalist is an aetheist

He gives several examples of disproving the whole thing but his example of the worm that is specialised in eating human eyes is convincing.

He saw many children who's eyes were being eaten

Why would god create that ? Would some religious person please explain that. At this point they usually cop out and say god moves in mysterious ways.

You know the conversation is over when they reach for that

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Many atheists end up in Church on sundays, that's no proof of anything

Good point. If Bob could make me go, I'd concede. Just trying not to hang the bar too high.

[chri'stina 190]

China oppressed all kinds of people for all kinds of things, including for example being educated or cultured. Christians who were persecuted were numerically insignificant and certainly they were not singled out over and above others.

For whatever reasons people have to live in fear of their government, it's an example of an oppressive atheistic government.

So, certain Islamic countries that ban the bible are actually atheistic?

I was talking about China, that was clear.

[웃 910]

I don't see how what Mao or hitler did had anything to do with atheism unless you want to say if they were religious they would have had better morals and the genocides wouldn't have occurred.

I can't say I don't see the religious connection to a suicide bomber however...

[Captain Oates 911]

For whatever reasons people have to live in fear of their government, it's an example of an oppressive atheistic government.

Saddam was religious

[chri'stina 190]

Saddam was religious

How are people jumping to all different rulers from me talking about China?? I am not talking about all oppressive governments that exist or existed.