Suicide bomber causes panic among Christmas shoppers in Stockholm Saturday over apparent silence by the Swedish government to condemn Mohamed cartoon

[Danno 1,228]

No Danno, that's not what I said and how anything I said is prejudicial belies logic. I said to call him a musilm terrorist and to speculate on his motivation based on pathetic and wrong interpretations of Koranic text is an exhibition of bigotry. I know you don't get it, I know you believe you are being fair and rational and you have separated the 'good muslims' from the 'bad' ones, but you are not and you have not - If I were to apply the same logic to the situation in Northern Ireland you would believe that members of the IRA are catholic terrorists and members of the INLA are protestant terrorists and both are christian terrorists, but you don't, do you?

You are in a very small minority of people who do not except that these Muslim terrorists are in fact, Muslim.

They may be wrong... they may way off the mainstream of Muslim thought but, they sincerely claim to be muslim, they justify their action from Muslim teaching (if not from the Quran its self) and so they are considered by nearly all as: Muslim.

Do Catholics get to divorce themselves from the infamous priests by claiming "No real Catholic Priest could do that"?

Do Baptist get to insulate themselves from the Westboro Church by claiming they are not "Real" baptists?

All Intelligence reports show these people in their most private communications and very lives are committed to Their concept of Islam.

One can't even say these folks have their own "denomination" as every time one comes to light (at least in the West) ... we find he has been active or attending in the local mainstream congregations.

The Catholic/ Protestant thing in Ireland is a weak example for you to use.... because it was so much about politics between two parties who happened to be of different faiths.

The David Koresh/ Wacco thing might have been a better choice.

In fact, thats a great example of my point.

Koresh held a twisted concept of Christianity but a Christian none the less.

Edited December 13, 2010 by Danno

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Sweden is not a "country of immigrants". There are two groups of people,

native Swedes and immigrants. All Muslims currently residing in Sweden

are either immigrants or descendants of recent immigrants.

Thank you, but, I asked Why_Ne what he meant. I believe he can post for himself. Besides, Muslims are not the only immigrants in Sweden.

[Peikko 1,575]

You are in a very small minority of people who do not except that these Muslim terrorists are in fact Muslim.

They may be wrong... they may way off the mainstream of Muslim thought but they sincerely claim to be muslim, they justify their action from Muslim teaching if not from the Quran its self and so they are considered by nearly all as Muslim.

Do Catholics get to divorce themselves from the infamous priests by claiming "No real Catholic Priest could do that"?

Do Baptist get to insulate themselves from the Westboro Church by claiming they are not "Real" baptists?

All Intelligence reports show these people in their most private communications and very lives are committed to Their concept of Islam.

One can't even say these folks have their own "denomination" as every time one comes to light... we find he has been active or attending in the local mainstream congregations.

The Catholic/ Protestant thing in Ireland is a weak example for you to use.... because it was so much about politics.

The David Koresh/ Wacco thing might have been better.

In fact, thats a great example of my point.

Koresh held a twisted concept of Christianity but a Christian none the less.

Once again, just because someone justifies an action to themselves does not in any way make it a rational or legitimate interpretation of a belief system.

Terrorism is always about politics Danno, never about religion.

If you believe Koresh was a christian, then I I don't know what to say. I would never consider him as such, but in your book if someone believes they are a christian then they are one, regardless of how twisted that interpretation of chrstianity they hold is right?. I find that totally illogical and prejudicial, in the same way that I find it illogical and prejudicial to describe a terrorist as a muslim terrorist because there is no interpretation of the Koran that justifies the actions terrorists take when they commit acts of mindless violence.

I'm not sure I understand at all why you have brought pedophiles into an argument about terrorists. Pedophiles do not justify their actions on the basis of a belief in anything at all period, so how is that relevant? .

[Sofiyya 1,687]

You are in a very small minority of people who do not except that these Muslim terrorists are in fact, Muslim.

In fact, she is the majority, at least, of people who are paying attention to far more than how they can exploit terrorism to advance their own prejudices. It's actually people who have no Muslim friends or acquaintances who believe that. Around the world, more people know Muslims than don't know Muslims.

They may be wrong... they may way off the mainstream of Muslim thought but, they sincerely claim to be muslim, they justify their action from Muslim teaching (if not from the Quran its self) and so they are considered by nearly all as: Muslim.

Where does Muslim teaching come from, if not the Quran? No, they are not considered Muslim by nearly all. In fact, one of the excuses that terrorists use to justify their killing of Muslims (their PRIMARY TARGET) is that their victims are not Muslim. That alone takes them out of Islam.

Do Catholics get to divorce themselves from the infamous priests by claiming "No real Catholic Priest could do that"?

Yes, they do.

Do Baptist get to insulate themselves from the Westboro Church by claiming they are not "Real" baptists?

Yes, they do.

All Intelligence reports show these people in their most private communications and very lives are committed to Their concept of Islam.

The problem is that contradictory "versions" of Islam are not Islam. What you're doing by insisting that their "Islam" is equal to orthodox Islam is giving them support and legitimacy. Would you do the same for pedophile priests by claiming their acts were condoned by what they believe is Catholicism? Is a legitimate Christian one who rejects the concept of salvation and eternal life through the blood of the Lamb? I doubt you would encourage either deviation, so why encourage deviations from Islam and defend terrorists' beliefs.

One can't even say these folks have their own "denomination" as every time one comes to light (at least in the West) ... we find he has been active or attending in the local mainstream congregations.

So, they attend a mainstream masjid. Maybe that's because there is no radical masjid nearby. Attending masjid doesn't equal radicalism. First of all, most Muslims don't attend masjid, and most who have committed terrorism weren't regular attendees, nor particularly devout.

I wonder, have you ever been to a masjid? Do you know what commonly goes on there?

The Catholic/ Protestant thing in Ireland is a weak example for you to use.... because it was so much about politics between two parties who happened to be of different faiths.

The David Koresh/ Wacco thing might have been a better choice.

In fact, thats a great example of my point.

Koresh held a twisted concept of Christianity but a Christian none the less.

It's not a weak analogy. Terrorist beliefs are commonly referred to as "Political Islam" because it's agenda is about politics with a thin veneer of cherry-picked "religion."

What made Koresh a Christian? Just because he said he was one?

g]

Edited December 13, 2010 by Sofiyya

[Danno 1,228]

Once again, just because someone justifies an action to themselves does not in any way make it a rational or legitimate interpretation of a belief system.

Terrorism is always about politics Danno, never about religion.

If you believe Koresh was a christian, then I I don't know what to say. I would never consider him as such, but in your book if someone believes they are a christian then they are one, regardless of how twisted that interpretation of chrstianity they hold is right?. I find that totally illogical and prejudicial, in the same way that I find it illogical and prejudicial to describe a terrorist as a muslim terrorist because there is no interpretation of the Koran that justifies the actions terrorists take when they commit acts of mindless violence.

I'm not sure I understand at all why you have brought pedophiles into an argument about terrorists. Pedophiles do not justify their actions on the basis of a belief in anything at all period, so how is that relevant? .

I brought koresh into the conversation, you brought in his sex life (and then diagnosed him) ....How was that relevant?

But since you brought it up, would taking under age girls as wives disqualify Muslims from Being Ligit Muslims..... or does that only work with Christians?

I'm not sure I said Koresh "was a Christian"..... just that he had a "twisted Christian Concept".... but thanks again for your lame attempt to put words in my mouth.

Just curious..... how is it you decide when someone is... or isn't a real follower?

Is there a check-off sheet you go by?

[Peikko 1,575]

I brought koresh into the conversation, you brought in his sex life (and then diagnosed him) ....How was that relevant?

But since you brought it up, would taking under age girls as wives disqualify Muslims from Being Ligit Muslims..... or does that only work with Christians?

I'm not sure I said Koresh "was a Christian"..... just that he had a "twisted Christian Concept".... but thanks again for your lame attempt to put words in my mouth.

Just curious..... how is it you decide when someone is... or isn't a real follower?

Is there a check-off sheet you go by?

What are you talking about? I am talking about how people justify their actions, you seem to be talking nonsense. If a terrorist justifies his actions via an interpretation of a belief system that is irrational and illogical then that justification can't qualify as a valid interpretation of that belief system. That's all there is to it, it really isn't that complicated

Other than that, I don't give two hoots what belief system someone wants to claim to believe in, nor do I bother to try to decide how good at it they are.

Edited December 13, 2010 by Madame Cleo

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I brought koresh into the conversation, you brought in his sex life (and then diagnosed him) ....How was that relevant?

But since you brought it up, would taking under age girls as wives disqualify Muslims from Being Ligit Muslims..... or does that only work with Christians?

I'm not sure I said Koresh "was a Christian"..... just that he had a "twisted Christian Concept".... but thanks again for your lame attempt to put words in my mouth.

Just curious..... how is it you decide when someone is... or isn't a real follower?

Is there a check-off sheet you go by?

Taking underage girls as wives has nothing to do with Islam, which doesn't condone the practice, nor is doing so exclusive to Muslims. It has more to do with the hubris of the male species.

You really have no credibility to determine who is Muslim, Danno, but I am curious as to where the line is crossed for you to decide someone isn't Christian by belief or practice.

[Danno 1,228]

Soffiya:

The problem is that contradictory "versions" of Islam are not Islam. What you're doing by insisting that their "Islam" is equal to orthodox Islam is giving them support and legitimacy. Would you do the same for pedophile priests by claiming their acts were condoned by what they believe is Catholicism? Is a legitimate Christian one who rejects the concept of salvation and eternal life through the blood of the Lamb? I doubt you would encourage either deviation, so why encourage deviations from Islam and defend terrorists' beliefs.

Soffiya, it is not my place to debate the religous aspects of Islam because like most people, I don't know enough about it.

And even among those who are well versed... there is no shortage of debate.

From what Little we have seen on the world stage there are division in Islam, there is no one gate-keeper over who is... and who isn't a Muslim.

I in no way mean to suggest, that I have determined that the Jihadists are on equaL FOOTING...... how would anyone who has not done serious study of the Koran, Islamic history and other relevant things?

Many of us hope it's not, we, by habit, expect religion to be free from violence but history and our books of faith tell another more realist story.

I think it's fair to say, I and most others take the terrorists at their word and consider them somehow connected to Islam... though I can understand you wish it weren't so.

I agree, one who rejects the concept of salvation and a few other essentials is not a real Christian.

So my honest question is: What are the essential -Bullet point- type things to determine if one is a "true Muslim"?

[ready4ONE 5,400]

If Allah gives them virgins in paradise for blowing themselves up then they are/were good Muslims.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Thank you, but, I asked Why_Ne what he meant. I believe he can post for himself. Besides, Muslims are not the only immigrants in Sweden.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Sweden

The largest minority languages are those spoken by immigrants, the most popular of which are Turkish, Finnish, Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian, Arabic, Neo-Aramaic, Persian, Spanish, Kurdish, English and Somali.

[Peikko 1,575]

Soffiya:

The problem is that contradictory "versions" of Islam are not Islam. What you're doing by insisting that their "Islam" is equal to orthodox Islam is giving them support and legitimacy. Would you do the same for pedophile priests by claiming their acts were condoned by what they believe is Catholicism? Is a legitimate Christian one who rejects the concept of salvation and eternal life through the blood of the Lamb? I doubt you would encourage either deviation, so why encourage deviations from Islam and defend terrorists' beliefs.

Soffiya, it is not my place to debate the religous aspects of Islam because like most people, I don't know enough about it.

And even among those who are well versed... there is no shortage of debate.

From what Little we have seen on the world stage there are division in Islam, there is no one gate-keeper over who is... and who isn't a Muslim.

I in no way mean to suggest, that I have determined that the Jihadists are on equaL FOOTING...... how would anyone who has not done serious study of the Koran, Islamic history and other relevant things?

Many of us hope it's not, we, by habit, expect religion to be free from violence but history and our books of faith tell another more realist story.

I think it's fair to say, I and most others take the terrorists at their word and consider them somehow connected to Islam... though I can understand you wish it weren't so.

I agree, one who rejects the concept of salvation and a few other essentials is not a real Christian.

So my honest question is: What are the essential -Bullet point- type things to determine if one is a "true Muslim"?

It's not a question of deciding who is and who isn't a muslim, or a christian or an adherent to any faith or to none, that's completely irrelevant and yes, not your place or mine to decide. It's a question of whether someone using religion to justify their actions is doing so legitimately or not. Terrorists are not, period. If in every other aspect of their lives a terrorist meets the demands placed on them by their religion than you can rightly claim that they are practicing that religion but the minute they justify an action that is unjustifiable that action is not in the name of, representative of or characteristic of any religion. How is this concept so difficult to grasp?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Soffiya:

The problem is that contradictory "versions" of Islam are not Islam. What you're doing by insisting that their "Islam" is equal to orthodox Islam is giving them support and legitimacy. Would you do the same for pedophile priests by claiming their acts were condoned by what they believe is Catholicism? Is a legitimate Christian one who rejects the concept of salvation and eternal life through the blood of the Lamb? I doubt you would encourage either deviation, so why encourage deviations from Islam and defend terrorists' beliefs.

Soffiya, it is not my place to debate the religous aspects of Islam because like most people, I don't know enough about it.

And even among those who are well versed... there is no shortage of debate.

I'm curious as to whom you consider to be well-versed and where that info comes from. I know that among right-wing anti-Muslim types, Ayan Hirsi Ali is considered to be an expert, but any knowledgeable Muslim can easily discern that she is a fake, as are so many others who received "authority" from their proximity to a single event or merely by proclaiming themselves an authority. Among the right, there are many frauds. I believe you may have been mislead.

From what Little we have seen on the world stage there are division in Islam, there is no one gate-keeper over who is... and who isn't a Muslim.

I in no way mean to suggest, that I have determined that the Jihadists are on equaL FOOTING...... how would anyone who has not done serious study of the Koran, Islamic history and other relevant things?

I see that kind of equalizing here on an almost daily basis. It's refreshing to know you have rejected that kind of relativist thinking.

Many of us hope it's not, we, by habit, expect religion to be free from violence but history and our books of faith tell another more realist story.

True dat.

I think it's fair to say, I and most others take the terrorists at their word and consider them somehow connected to Islam... though I can understand you wish it weren't so.

Wishing has nothing to do with it; I know it's not so. Unlike Christianity, Islam is not merely about belief, it is about acts, and how we will be judged on the Last Day regarding what we do. Believing one is Muslim is not sufficient to be Muslim; that concept is not part of our theology. It is Christian perception brought into a realm that cannot be defined by Christian concepts.

Additionally, I wonder how rational people can truly believe that the second largest faith on the globe hold tenets so flexible, so lacking in absolutes, and without principle that any fool can twist them into something so negative and destructive. It seems to have more to do with a wish on the part of those who know little about Islam that they, not Muslims, imbue terrorists and terrorism with a legitimate connection to a faith they do not understand.

It is also a mystery to me that they will not do that to their own, but will actually disseminate the idea for us, doing us and Islam a grave disservice. It is a further insult to those who have been faithful that we are readily usurped in the minds of those who have a hunger for sensationalism and confusion at the expense of orthoproxy.

I agree, one who rejects the concept of salvation and a few other essentials is not a real Christian.

So my honest question is: What are the essential -Bullet point- type things to determine if one is a "true Muslim"?

Muslims are, by definitions, those who surrender their will to God. God tells us repeatedly that it is His Way we must follow, His Determination as to who will enter heaven or be doomed to hell, He is the one who decides who will follow Him and who will not. In fact, the Quran says that God made us believe differently on purpose, as a challenge for us to learn how to find our way toward Him together by what we have in common, our love for Him.

Terrorists do not do this. They assume God's Will and take it upon themselves to determine who please Him and who must be eliminated. God is about mercy; for every punishment, there is a way to repent and redeem. With terrorists, there is no mercy, no redemption. If the purpose of the Day of Judgement is for God to judge between us, what is the justification upon which terrorists rely to explain their evil? That they are doing God's work by ridding the world of those who offend Him and rewarding those who do, as they see it. For them, God is a means to amass power over others. But, Islam teaches humility, justice, modesty, learning, patience, security. Those are not the traits of a terrorist, but they are the very essence of being Muslim.

I hope that helps.

Who is the "they" you were referring to, Why_Ne?

[Danno 1,228]

What are you talking about? I am talking about how people justify their actions, you seem to be talking nonsense. If a terrorist justifies his actions via an interpretation of a belief system that is irrational and illogical then that justification can't qualify as a valid interpretation of that belief system. That's all there is to it, it really isn't that complicated

Other than that, I don't give two hoots what belief system someone wants to claim to believe in, nor do I bother to try to decide how good at it they are.

Awwe come now MC, you are too long in the tooth to play Doge-ball with Ole Danno.

Let's try again....

Q: How do you determine whether the interpretation of a "belief system" (religion).... is irrational and or illogical?

Have you really studied All these religions you comment on so deeply?

Or maybe you can't grasp that acts of evil are permitted by some faiths (not that I am referring to any one faith).

Edited December 13, 2010 by Danno

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

I'm a normal human being, you work it out genius.

No you're not. Normal human beings condemn terrorism and terrorists..... not dance around the subject.

[Danno 1,228]

Taking underage girls as wives has nothing to do with Islam, which doesn't condone the practice, nor is doing so exclusive to Muslims. It has more to do with the hubris of the male species.

You really have no credibility to determine who is Muslim, Danno, but I am curious as to where the line is crossed for you to decide someone isn't Christian by belief or practice.

You are right, I have no credibility to determine who is Muslim ...it's job enough to draw lines within my own general faith.... Moving forward on this assumption, why would anyone lacking this Credibility, be qualified to discount the Terrorists claims of being "Muslim"... at least in some form.