Marriage contract

[lostinlove228 0]

Him not taken a second wife is not haram. Therefore you are not asking him to do something haram by asking him not to take a second wife. whatever he agrees to before the marriage, he is obliged to follow through with or he is committing haram. Different marjahs have different opions. The marjah I follow agrees with this. Although I am shitte and not really sure where the Sunni marjahs fall into this. There are some differences. In the End man's law does not really matter, because we are responsible for the consequences of our actions to God only.

[Bosco 1]

Gupt quotes from there but you and others here are always quick to jump in and claim 'oh that is a salafi website... they are salafi like veiled princess and not real Islam' or something to that effect even though I have told you time and again that's not true and have openly disagreed with what that shaykh says. You also falsely claim the terrorists and al-qaida are salafis even though I have provided proof from true salafi sites that salafi scholars have frequently condemned acts of terror and all the groups that call for it or act on it.

Furthermore, just because someone is "Saudi" does not by default make them "Salafi".

Wahhabism is not a manhaj, Wahhab was a shaykh who called people to the worship of Allah based on the Quran and Sunnah the way the companions of the prohpet understood it. To learn about as-salafiyyah I suggest starting here http://www.salaf.com/ and follow the links to trustworthy sites. You might look for the link about salafiyyah being a 'new' thing. The salafi scholars call people back to the worship of Allah the way it was in our prophet's time so it's not 'new'.

Regarding the hadith you quoted... you should quote it correctly and not just the way you want it to read. What it says is "whoever calls his brother a kafir"... that means not to call other muslims non-believers. There is no prohibition against calling kufar... well kufar.

Kufr is something very important to warn against as it will lead a person to hell forever. I think it's something important to discuss. We should all be well aware of the various acts of kufr and what makes one a kafir to protect ourselves from those things.

We, as muslims, should call to Allah by making people aware of the favors of Allah and His rights to be worshipped alone as well as by warning the kufar that Allah has created hellfire for everyone who rejects Him and the only way to escape it is by la ilaha illa Allah. It is not wise to call to Allah by pretending that kufr does not exist and that everyone, kufar and muslimeen alike, will be together in jannah.

Allah says in the Quran:

"And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers."(Aal-e-Imran, Chapter 3, Verse 85)

You should know that there are not many paths that lead to Allah, there is only one... Islam. To claim that there are many paths is actually a very pagan thing to say and quite irresponsible.

I'm not trying to bash you and I'm by no means implying that you are a kafir... so we're clear. I'm just tired of being bashed and lied about on here by people who profess to be muslims when it's rather clear that some people here have little or no knowledge of Islam at all other than what their local imam feels about it.

There is a lot of misinformation concerning Islam that goes on here. Most of the time I stay out of it because anytime I comment (like this time) I get attacked by the kufar and the 'mods' alike

I mean I think it's sweet that some of you ladies here love Islam and want to talk about it and discuss things here but really Islam was not meant to be about what we 'feel' about it. It's sanctioned by Allah alone and we shouldn't let our personal feelings get in the way of worshipping Him the way He instructs us.

I have never said not "real Islam" and that is another lie. Islam as practiced in Saudi, Salafism and Wahhabism are not mainstream. There is a difference between saying something is not mainstream and saying something is not real. Where did I say Al-Qaeda and terrorists are Salafi?

Salafi scholars call people back to worship as they believe it was done VP. I know very well Wahhab was a person. You are completely missing the point. These "ideas" that this is a "return to Islam" were "new" ideas.

Again, you don't understand my receiving for putting that hadith out. Your posts routinely imply that only you and Salafis follow true Islam, thus implying the other Muslims (brothers) are not doing it right. Your post on about the contracts alone accuses fellow Muslims of wrongdoing.

Instead of tossing out a generalization, who are you talking about when you say "people who profess to be muslims when it's rather clear that some people here have little or no knowledge of Islam at all other than what their local imam feels about it.

You say "I mean I think it's sweet that some of you ladies here love Islam and want to talk about it and discuss things here but really Islam was not meant to be about what we 'feel' about it". Don't you realize that you do this as well? That your hellfire image of Islam is what you feel it should be about? Whether or not that is from your best understanding - it is just that your understanding.

And who are you calling (implying) is pagan here: "You should know that there are not many paths that lead to Allah, there is only one... Islam. To claim that there are many paths is actually a very pagan thing to say and quite irresponsible" Me? Where did I say that "pagan thing"?

I also object to labeling VJ people kufar - but this is where you and I are different. You may consider it a warning, I don't. I consider it divisive.

[Veiled Princess 1]

Him not taken a second wife is not haram. Therefore you are not asking him to do something haram by asking him not to take a second wife. whatever he agrees to before the marriage, he is obliged to follow through with or he is committing haram. Different marjahs have different opions. The marjah I follow agrees with this. Although I am shitte and not really sure where the Sunni marjahs fall into this. There are some differences. In the End man's law does not really matter, because we are responsible for the consequences of our actions to God only.

OK, I see where you and I are crossing wires... I'm not saying it's haraam for him to decide not to marry another wife... I'm not saying there's anything haraam about it because it's just my opinion... the way I see it.

I agree with you. He does not have to take another wife and it's not haraam if he doesn't. What I was thinking about that stipulation, however, is that the woman is going an extra step and making it haraam for him to marry another woman later down the road. So she is in effect making something haraam for him that Allah has made halal. That is my only thought about that. Just doesn't seem right is all.

I mean if you two decide that he won't marry another that's COOL! I'm just saying to make a condition of the marriage contract that if he does then he'll be punished (you will divorce him) seems like the woman is making it haraam for him.

[Veiled Princess 1]

Again, you don't understand my receiving for putting that hadith out. Your posts routinely imply that only you and Salafis follow true Islam, thus implying the other Muslims (brothers) are not doing it right. Your post on about the contracts alone accuses fellow Muslims of wrongdoing.

Just because I believe that some muslims misunderstand or have been misinformed on some things about Islam does not mean I necessarily believe they are kufar because of it and I have never said/implied/thought such a thing!

You, however, are often quick to judge me because I ascibe to salafiyyah and feel you need to 'defend Islam against me' to all the VJ'ers out there. You and your little band of mod sisters bash the salafi manhaj and me at every opportunity.

I never said that everyone on VJ are kufar... however, if one does not believe in la ilaha illa Allah, I believe they are and feel no shame in that. You treat it like it's a dirty word when it's just a word. What is the difference if I said kafir or non-believer or non-muslim? Just because you feel that one way of saying it is more PC?

[lostinlove228 0]

Him not taken a second wife is not haram. Therefore you are not asking him to do something haram by asking him not to take a second wife. whatever he agrees to before the marriage, he is obliged to follow through with or he is committing haram. Different marjahs have different opions. The marjah I follow agrees with this. Although I am shitte and not really sure where the Sunni marjahs fall into this. There are some differences. In the End man's law does not really matter, because we are responsible for the consequences of our actions to God only.

I mean if you two decide that he won't marry another that's COOL! I'm just saying to make a condition of the marriage contract that if he does then he'll be punished (you will divorce him) seems like the woman is making it haraam for him.

if you make that stipulation in writing that if he marries a second wife, you have the right to obtain a divorce, you are not punishing or making it haram for him. He just cannot deny a divorce at that point and at that point that you right. You are not making it haram for him. He is making that choice and he making that choice at the point of marriage. In the end you have to check with you Marjah before making such choices.

[Bosco 1]

Again, you don't understand my receiving for putting that hadith out. Your posts routinely imply that only you and Salafis follow true Islam, thus implying the other Muslims (brothers) are not doing it right. Your post on about the contracts alone accuses fellow Muslims of wrongdoing.

Just because I believe that some muslims misunderstand or have been misinformed on some things about Islam does not mean I necessarily believe they are kufar because of it and I have never said/implied/thought such a thing!

You, however, are often quick to judge me because I ascibe to salafiyyah and feel you need to 'defend Islam against me' to all the VJ'ers out there. You and your little band of mod sisters bash the salafi manhaj and me at every opportunity.

I never said that everyone on VJ are kufar... however, if one does not believe in la ilaha illa Allah, I believe they are and feel no shame in that. You treat it like it's a dirty word when it's just a word. What is the difference if I said kafir or non-believer or non-muslim? Just because you feel that one way of saying it is more PC?

Kafir may not be a "dirty word" but why is there a need to throw it into your posts. When you label someone, you are judging them, putting them in a category, when you have no idea what they are, how they behave in their life, why they look the way they do, or speak the way they do, or why they believe as they do. People are just people and you go from there, otherwise you start a conversation already creating an divide that must be traversed before you can even get to the point of the conversation. In my opinion, this kind of divisiveness does not create a warm, accepting environment for others to learn more about Islam, and in fact, seems to be creating the opposite effect. Why do you think people react to you they way they do?

You, however, are often quick to judge me because I ascibe to salafiyyah and feel you need to 'defend Islam against me' to all the VJ'ers out there. You and your little band of mod sisters bash the salafi manhaj and me at every opportunity.

I don't care what you ascribe to, and I don't think anyone else does. The issue is you portraying Salafism as the authoritative, correct Islam. I think I can speak for others when I say this is what we object to. As others have pointed out, it is your choice of words. The continued implication that your beliefs are "correct" and others are "misguided". Would there be any harm in changing your wording in posts from "Islam is" to "I believe Islam is" and other similar modifications? So you speak for yourself rather than a faith we all share? Many people were under the impression that we all thought like you until I pointed out you were Salafi and there are differences. A simple change in wording would stop that impression. You are free to your beliefs, but represent them as such. That is all I am asking.

Edited August 29, 2006 by Bosco

[Veiled Princess 1]

I don't care what you ascribe to, and I don't think anyone else does. The issue is you portraying Salafism as the authoritative, correct Islam. I think I can speak for others when I say this is what we object to. As others have pointed out, it is your choice of words. The continued implication that your beliefs are "correct" and others are "misguided". Would there be any harm in changing your wording in posts from "Islam is" to "I believe Islam is"?

My God, you make it out like I come on VJ posting... 'you're a kafir, you're a kafir, you over there behind that screen--you kafir!'

I don't care how/why people react to me.

I have said ---IMO, or I believe until I am blue in the face and you still are accusing me of what you will.

I do believe my beliefs are correct--should I not?

[Ban Hammer 13,113]

[Together4ever 1]

I'm going to step in it because I'm grumpy anyway...

Islam is Islam. Your "way" is right and everyone who does not follow the particular brand of interpreting it as you do is wrong? Hardly.

I really have a problem with sects. They form their own interpretations and encourage followers. This does not encourage much of a deep individual relationship or finding one's understanding on a deep level. But then this is MY opinion.

You can keep the prideful attitude VP... go read what the quran teaches about pride.

It has nothing to do with pride and everything to do with truth. Allah warns about being extreme in the religion and everyone calls out the taliban and al-qaida claiming they are being extreme (I don't agree because I don't believe they follow the religion at all so it's not possible for them to be extreme in it) but that warning extends to extremities in the other direction as well. Everyone is not going to be in jannah. There will be many people in hell fire for eternity. To pretend otherwise is careless.

YOU my dear certainly overly prideful in yourself. Go back and read what others say. If you feel so righteous fine. But belittling another is done out of self pride and you're dripping with it. I do NOT appreciate your pompous attitude. If that's not what you intend, then perhaps look at the way you present yourself. Its offensive and hiding behind Allah doesn't make it right.

Again... I have said it several times... What counts is what is between me and Allah. Man's interpretations can easily be erroneous. This is again why I do not subscribe to this sect philosophy. It's just that... a PHILOSOPHY based on Islam. That does not make it THE ONLY RIGHT ONE. IF it works for you, great. But you are no such saint or prophet to waltz around claiming yourself the expert on what the correct interpretation is.

I'm sorry but I'm really fed up with rubbish like this.

Again, you don't understand my receiving for putting that hadith out. Your posts routinely imply that only you and Salafis follow true Islam, thus implying the other Muslims (brothers) are not doing it right. Your post on about the contracts alone accuses fellow Muslims of wrongdoing.

Just because I believe that some muslims misunderstand or have been misinformed on some things about Islam does not mean I necessarily believe they are kufar because of it and I have never said/implied/thought such a thing!

You, however, are often quick to judge me because I ascibe to salafiyyah and feel you need to 'defend Islam against me' to all the VJ'ers out there. You and your little band of mod sisters bash the salafi manhaj and me at every opportunity.

I never said that everyone on VJ are kufar... however, if one does not believe in la ilaha illa Allah, I believe they are and feel no shame in that. You treat it like it's a dirty word when it's just a word. What is the difference if I said kafir or non-believer or non-muslim? Just because you feel that one way of saying it is more PC?

Horse hockey.

Edited August 29, 2006 by just_waiting

[Veiled Princess 1]

YOU my dear certainly overly prideful in yourself. Go back and read what others say. If you feel so righteous fine. But belittling another is done out of self pride and you're dripping with it. I do NOT appreciate your pompous attitude. If that's not what you intend, then perhaps look at the way you present yourself. Its offensive and hiding behind Allah doesn't make it right.

Again... I have said it several times... What counts is what is between me and Allah. Man's interpretations can easily be erroneous. This is again why I do not subscribe to this sect philosophy. It's just that... a PHILOSOPHY based on Islam. That does not make it THE ONLY RIGHT ONE. IF it works for you, great. But you are no such saint or prophet to waltz around claiming yourself the expert on what the correct interpretation is.

I'm sorry but I'm really fed up with rubbish like this.

So I am prideful because I defend what I believe in???

[Together4ever 1]

YOU my dear certainly overly prideful in yourself. Go back and read what others say. If you feel so righteous fine. But belittling another is done out of self pride and you're dripping with it. I do NOT appreciate your pompous attitude. If that's not what you intend, then perhaps look at the way you present yourself. Its offensive and hiding behind Allah doesn't make it right.

Again... I have said it several times... What counts is what is between me and Allah. Man's interpretations can easily be erroneous. This is again why I do not subscribe to this sect philosophy. It's just that... a PHILOSOPHY based on Islam. That does not make it THE ONLY RIGHT ONE. IF it works for you, great. But you are no such saint or prophet to waltz around claiming yourself the expert on what the correct interpretation is.

I'm sorry but I'm really fed up with rubbish like this.

So I am prideful because I defend what I believe in???

There is a difference between righteous and SELF righteous.

I feel I should somewhat apologize. Little things make me lose my temper these days. Comes from the feeling of hopelessness. I do not like it when people proclaim themselves better. I suppose it trips my ego. I have difficulties with the way you present yourself VP. Accept my apologies, but I will not agree with you and will most likely refrain from engaging in anymore conversations. Most likely, its best that way.

[Veiled Princess 1]

There is a difference between righteous and SELF righteous.

I feel I should somewhat apologize. Little things make me lose my temper these days. Comes from the feeling of hopelessness. I do not like it when people proclaim themselves better. I suppose it trips my ego. I have difficulties with the way you present yourself VP. Accept my apologies, but I will not agree with you and will most likely refrain from engaging in anymore conversations. Most likely, its best that way.

I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm trying to be self righteous. I also never claimed I was better than anyone else nor do I think of myslef in that light.

I understand about the little things setting you off... we're in the same boat there which is the purpose of this site.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I agree with you. He does not have to take another wife and it's not haraam if he doesn't. What I was thinking about that stipulation, however, is that the woman is going an extra step and making it haraam for him to marry another woman later down the road. So she is in effect making something haraam for him that Allah has made halal. That is my only thought about that. Just doesn't seem right is all.

I mean if you two decide that he won't marry another that's COOL! I'm just saying to make a condition of the marriage contract that if he does then he'll be punished (you will divorce him) seems like the woman is making it haraam for him.

Ok, let's get something straight. While it is ok to have your own opinion about something, there can be only one fact about it, and in this case, the fact is, Islam does not grant a Muslim man the RIGHT to have more than one wife just because he wants more than one. Because that is the fact, a wife has every right to prohibit taking what would amount to a mistress in the west and in several Muslim countries, btw. I have that stipulation in my contract, and it doesn't even include that I could divorce him for it, because it's illegal in the US and in Morocco he has to have my permission, which he won't get.

Since it is not a man's right nor a requirement, there's not a darn thing haram about putting a restriction on it in the nikah. If he agrees to it, it would be haram for him to break his word. But if he is a righteous man, he will follow the Prophet's Sunnah in his role as a husband, giving his wife no worries about other women. During a time when it was common for men to have dozens of wives, inherit women, suspend wives in limbo so that no one else could have them even if their husband didn't want them, our Nabi, a man of exceptional character, was married to an older widow for 25 years, nearly half his life. After she died, he married several widows and divorcees and only one virgin that he was instructed to marry in a dream. He married women who had no affiliation, sick women, working women, and strong women who proposed to him. These were not babes that he met and became enamored with, like so many modern men are apt to do before they claim their "right" to more than one wife.

The allowance for multiple marriage was sent after the Battle of Badr to accomplish two ends:

1. To devise a means of social and economic protection for women who were left with no male guardian after battles. The Surah Al-Nisa, repeatedly calls for justice, fairness and dignity for these women, that they are no taken advantage of. There is no dignity for the women, nor for the man, if the man is allowed to treat women as collectibles.

2. To limit the number of women allowed for marriage to one man under the conditions set forth.

There is only one ayah granting mutiple marriage, but there are many describing marriage as a state of harmony, love and respect between husband and wife. In the opening ayah of Al-Nisa, Allah says:

O mankind! Reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered like seeds countless men and women. Reverence God, through whom you demand your mutual rights, and reverence the wombs That bore you: For God ever watches over you.

A similar sentiment is repeated here:

2:187 Permitted to you, on the night of the fasts, is the approach to your wives. They are your garments and ye are their garments.

7:189 It is He Who created you from a single person, and made his mate of like nature, in order that he might dwell with her (in love).

16:72 And God has made for you mates (and companions) of your own nature, and made for you, out of them, sons and daughters and grandchildren, and provided for you sustenance of the best: will they then believe in vain things, and be ungrateful for God's favours?-

No God that instructs that men and women are of like nature and that the womb that bore you is to be revered intends to allow men to treat their like mate with such disrespect as claimed by those who believe that men are allowed, simply out of desire, to marry women as they may. Culture may allow this, and that is where the claim may arise, but Islam does not. It advises self-restraint:

4:129-130 Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire: But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self-restraint, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

It advises righteousness in the face of desire. Allah says:

3:14 Fair in the eyes of men is the love of things they covet: Women and sons; Heaped-up hoards of gold and silver; horses branded (for blood and excellence); and (wealth of) cattle and well-tilled land. Such are the possessions of this world's life ; but in nearness to God is the best of the goals (To return to).

So, the Quran and the Sunnah being the components of sharia, the sharia instructs:

Harmony, respect, dignity, and love between husband and wife. These are not achieved by a man trolling for new women to entertain for multiple marriage just because he wants to.

Justice and fairness, unavailable when one partner is not doing 100% of his duty as a husband to please his wife.

Protection for all parties, which is difficult to have when a husband has a wife and a mistress.

Monogamy is the desired state, one demonstrated by the Prophet and the passion he displayed for his favorite wife, and polygyny a limited option involving women in need of protection.

Do not fear the addition of such a provision denying multiple marriage to your husband. Insist on it, enforce it, and rely on it, for if he agrees and he is a man whose word is his bond, he will not dishonor you by treating women as toys, lusting after others, and expecting you to give up your elevated status to his dreams of a haram. We all pray for a man of exceptional character, which each Muslim man should aspire to. Help your husband to be that man; God intends for you to have what He has granted to you in love and harmony.

Edited August 30, 2006 by szsz

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Allah says in the Quran:

"And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers."(Aal-e-Imran, Chapter 3, Verse 85)

When someone says that they should post the quote the way it should be read and not the way they want it to read, this is a good example.

Allah says in the Quran:

"And whoever seeks a religion other than submission to God, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers."(Aal-e-Imran, Chapter 3, Verse 85)

The ayah doesn't refer to the institution of Islam, but to one's submission to God, which has existed since Adam, not since the salafis nor ven since the Prophet, who was the LAST prophet of Islam, not the first. That honor belongs to Adam.

Allah says that there will be Jews and Christians in heaven (2:62; 5:69; 22:17), so it is quite possible that there will Muslims who are not of the Salafi sect there too.

[babybunny 2]

YOU my dear certainly overly prideful in yourself. Go back and read what others say. If you feel so righteous fine. But belittling another is done out of self pride and you're dripping with it. I do NOT appreciate your pompous attitude. If that's not what you intend, then perhaps look at the way you present yourself. Its offensive and hiding behind Allah doesn't make it right.

Again... I have said it several times... What counts is what is between me and Allah. Man's interpretations can easily be erroneous. This is again why I do not subscribe to this sect philosophy. It's just that... a PHILOSOPHY based on Islam. That does not make it THE ONLY RIGHT ONE. IF it works for you, great. But you are no such saint or prophet to waltz around claiming yourself the expert on what the correct interpretation is.

I'm sorry but I'm really fed up with rubbish like this.

well said

I thought islam was also about humility.

whats cracking me up. are those that are freaking out over a second wife.

are you that insecure? he cant have a second wife in the USA anyways.