Marriage contract

[Veiled Princess 1]

Just out of curiousity, why do so many threads about Islam turn into a flame war? I know people disagree (haha, I know I do!) but this is a thread about a peaceful religion that has just turned into a train wreck like many others about Islam have.

VP, you mentioned to Sarah that it is disrespectful to joke about the quran. Well isn't this also a form of disrespect to your religion? I don't mean it in a way to say that it is your fault, but since you feel so passionate about your religion, I figured you would be the first to understand that your religion is not exactly being portrayed in the best light right now.

I rarely comment in the threads about Islam, but usually someone will start one for a good reason or to share some information, and they almost always turn into a train wreck. Just food for thought...

JP, not every thread about Islam turns into a flame war. The only time that really happens is when the grand mufti of VJ comes in throwing E-fatawa around like candy and insulting and stomping everyone who dares disagree.

I may speak with ferver about my beliefs but I do try not to make it a habit to start personally attacking people just because I don't agree. There is a difference between sticking to your guns and trying to force others to see things your way. By insulting reverts constantly and attacking the intelligence level of those who disagree, SZSZ is trying nothing more than to force or shame others into agreeing with her and being praised by the masses. She doesn't even seem to care that the main supporters she has most of the time are not even muslim.

I, for one, am a reactionary type... I should not be but that is my fitnah to deal with. Anytime I am attacked I react with vengence. It's not right but it's just how it is. I also should learn the art of overcoming temptation to hit that 'show this post' button

[Sofiyya 1,687]

JP, not every thread about Islam turns into a flame war. The only time that really happens is when the grand mufti of VJ comes in throwing E-fatawa around like candy and insulting and stomping everyone who dares disagree.

And that would be you, VP. When I came in, you were being lambasted by others for being on a high horse and calling anyone who disagreed with you kufr. I didn't know this was happening until others called me in to deal with you.

I may speak with ferver about my beliefs but I do try not to make it a habit to start personally attacking people just because I don't agree. There is a difference between sticking to your guns and trying to force others to see things your way. By insulting reverts constantly and attacking the intelligence level of those who disagree, SZSZ is trying nothing more than to force or shame others into agreeing with her and being praised by the masses. She doesn't even seem to care that the main supporters she has most of the time are not even muslim.

Honey, as I said, I was called in because you were being so insulting and beligerant to others here. I told you before that I received a lot of PMs from folks who are fed up with your self-centered and ignorant rants. Apparently, some here think I have the means to show you up. BTW, I'm not so much interested in agreement between you and I than I am in demonstrating to the readers that there is an Islam that isn't as sad, sorry, misogynist and separatist as the one you represent. You think more of yourself than most others here do. If they want you to tone it down, I would suggest that they stand up to you with conviction rather than depending on others to tell you to get over yourself.

I, for one, am a reactionary type... I should not be but that is my fitnah to deal with. Anytime I am attacked I react with vengence. It's not right but it's just how it is. I also should learn the art of overcoming temptation to hit that 'show this post' button

Do us all a favor and deal with your reactionary nature. I'm not so much interested in attacking you than I am confronting your attacks on our noble faith with your warped perceptions of it. Converting hasn't helped your disposition at all.

4.135 O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for God can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily God is well- acquainted with all that ye do.

Think of me in any way you wish. You call me Shaytan, call me out of Islam, say I'm an innovator, but I will not allow you to mislead others here unchallenged. If that keeps me busy defending God and man against you, it is my blessing!

BTW, I was called in by MUSLIMS

Edited September 2, 2006 by szsz

[Veiled Princess 1]

And that would be you, VP. When I came in, you were being lambasted by others for being on a high horse and calling anyone who disagreed with you kufr. I didn't know this was happening until others called me in to deal with you.

That is yet another in a long series of lies from you against me. I never called anyone a kafir on this board. I would ask for the proof but I know you avoid that like the plague.

I don't belittle those who don't agree with me... I will post the proof from scholars for why I believe that way but I don't call people out by name like you do unless they are calling me out first nor do I insult their intelligence like you.

I will continue posting here and there is not a darn thing you can do to stop me. I don't care how many imaginary unicorns PM you asking for your intercession.

I also will continue to speak out against any bidah you teach here.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

You can't stop lying or spreading bida. Take a look back at the early part of this thread, around the post 40s. You are already becoming "reactionary" because others are opposing you and complaining about how you reject any view of Islam other than Wahabi/salafi as correct and about how you throw "kufr" and "kafir" around in ignorance. And I am no where to be found. You are the one who is throwing out fatwas and not liking the response you're getting. You can start a polemic all by yourself, no denying it.

I don't care how many imaginary unicorns PM you asking for your intercession.

You can't afford to believe that your view of Islam is alienating to other Muslims. You are incapable of seeing yourself as others see you, but you leave evidence all around as to how you have little respect for the views of others. I will challenge you and any nonsense you post, for you and your made up neo-sect are the innovators, not the mainstream of Islam.

I am not a reactionary.

Edited September 2, 2006 by szsz

[Henia 11]

this thread is still up?

[Veiled Princess 1]

You can't stop lying either. Take a look back at the early part of this thread, around the post 40s. You are already becoming "reactionary" because others are opposing you and complaining about how you reject any view of Islam other than Wahabi/salafi as correct and about how you throw "kufr" and "kafir" around in ignorance. And I am no where to be found. You are the one who is throwing out fatwas and not liking the response you're getting. You can start a polemic all by yourself, no denying it.

You are incapable of seeing yourself as others see you, but you leave evidence all around as to how you have little respect for the views of others. I will challenge you and any nonsense you post, for you and your made up sect are the innovators, not the mainstream of Islam.

I am not a reactionary.

Mainstream Islam does not condone muslim women marrying non muslim women... mainstream Islam says that hijab is a requirement... mainstream Islam holds the opinion that people of the book today are not going to heaven if they die rejecting Islam... mainstream Islam does not call the nikah a 'sex contract'. Mainstream Islam says that men are allowed to marry more than one for one reason or another and does not ever call something that Allah has allowed a disgusting practice.

You, ma'am, are not mainstream anything.

You obviously lack reading skills as well, I did not call anyone a kafir on here. Someone else brought that up against me and that is what brought that word into this discussion.

Yes, I reject any view that does not have proof to back it up. Rejecting it as truth does not mean I don't respect that others have their own views... it just means I don't accept it.

[Ban Hammer 13,333]

That is yet another in a long series of lies from you against me. I never called anyone a kafir on this board. I would ask for the proof but I know you avoid that like the plague.

I never said that everyone on VJ are kufar... however, if one does not believe in la ilaha illa Allah, I believe they are and feel no shame in that. You treat it like it's a dirty word when it's just a word. What is the difference if I said kafir or non-believer or non-muslim? Just because you feel that one way of saying it is more PC?

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...28590&st=40

post 49

not everyone...just some eh?

Edited September 2, 2006 by charlesandnessa

[Veiled Princess 1]

this thread is still up?

YES... maddening isn't it?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Mainstream Islam does not condone muslim women marrying non muslim women... mainstream Islam says that hijab is a requirement... mainstream Islam holds the opinion that people of the book today are not going to heaven if they die rejecting Islam... mainstream Islam does not call the nikah a 'sex contract'. Mainstream Islam says that men are allowed to marry more than one for one reason or another and does not ever call something that Allah has allowed a disgusting practice.

Your problem is that you have no means of differentiating between Islam and culture. Since you can't discuss the source of opinon (and that is what it is), then you have no way of knowing when something is from Islam or from culture.

You, ma'am, are not mainstream anything.

It's ok. Your mainstream is your sect, which means nothing.

You obviously lack reading skills as well, I did not call anyone a kafir on here. Someone else brought that up against me and that is what brought that word into this discussion.

You have called me a kafir, so I know that is a lie.

Yes, I reject any view that does not have proof to back it up. Rejecting it as truth does not mean I don't respect that others have their own views... it just means I don't accept it.

The irony of this claim is that you are unable to prove what you believe. Well, unless you consider disembodied ayat, cut and pastes from other websites, and name-calling proof. You RARELY muster an effort to explain something in yourown words, and you NEVER make an effort to explain the contradictions. Your posts lack nuance, context and history. It is discombobulated nonsense 99.44% of the time. It cries out for opposition, and I have been called to take you on.

I never said that everyone on VJ are kufar... however, if one does not believe in la ilaha illa Allah, I believe they are and feel no shame in that. You treat it like it's a dirty word when it's just a word. What is the difference if I said kafir or non-believer or non-muslim? Just because you feel that one way of saying it is more PC?

Just one of many examples. Here she admits she does it, here she swears she doesn't.

Maddening, isn't it!

Edited September 2, 2006 by szsz

[Veiled Princess 1]

That is yet another in a long series of lies from you against me. I never called anyone a kafir on this board. I would ask for the proof but I know you avoid that like the plague.

I never said that everyone on VJ are kufar... however, if one does not believe in la ilaha illa Allah, I believe they are and feel no shame in that. You treat it like it's a dirty word when it's just a word. What is the difference if I said kafir or non-believer or non-muslim? Just because you feel that one way of saying it is more PC?

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...28590&st=40

post 49

not everyone...just some eh?

I did not call anyone out as a kafir in that or any other post.

You have called me a kafir, so I know that is a lie.

maybe I don't remember... post if you have proof... if not, don't slander me.

The irony of this claim is that you are unable to prove what you believe. Well, unless you consider disembodied ayat, cut and pastes from other websites, and name-calling proof. You RARELY muster an effort to explain something in yourown words, and you NEVER make an effort to explain the contradictions. Your posts lack nuance, context and history. It is discombobulated nonsense 99.44% of the time. It cries out for opposition, and I have been called to take you on.

I trust what scholars say, not my opinion. I could fill the board with worthless dribble from my head like you do but that wouldn't be Islam.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I put the word "kafir" into the search engine, and guess whose name keeps popping up? Oh, no! She also puts down those who disagree with her!

Talk about fatwas, pots and kettles . . .

QUOTE(Veiled Princess @ Aug 29 2006, 11:14 AM)

Gupt quotes from there but you and others here are always quick to jump in and claim 'oh that is a salafi website... they are salafi like veiled princess and not real Islam' or something to that effect even though I have told you time and again that's not true and have openly disagreed with what that shaykh says. You also falsely claim the terrorists and al-qaida are salafis even though I have provided proof from true salafi sites that salafi scholars have frequently condemned acts of terror and all the groups that call for it or act on it.

Furthermore, just because someone is "Saudi" does not by default make them "Salafi".

Wahhabism is not a manhaj, Wahhab was a shaykh who called people to the worship of Allah based on the Quran and Sunnah the way the companions of the prohpet understood it. To learn about as-salafiyyah I suggest starting here http://www.salaf.com/ and follow the links to trustworthy sites. You might look for the link about salafiyyah being a 'new' thing. The salafi scholars call people back to the worship of Allah the way it was in our prophet's time so it's not 'new'.

Regarding the hadith you quoted... you should quote it correctly and not just the way you want it to read. What it says is "whoever calls his brother a kafir"... that means not to call other muslims non-believers. There is no prohibition against calling kufar... well kufar.

Kufr is something very important to warn against as it will lead a person to hell forever. I think it's something important to discuss. We should all be well aware of the various acts of kufr and what makes one a kafir to protect ourselves from those things.

We, as muslims, should call to Allah by making people aware of the favors of Allah and His rights to be worshipped alone as well as by warning the kufar that Allah has created hellfire for everyone who rejects Him and the only way to escape it is by la ilaha illa Allah. It is not wise to call to Allah by pretending that kufr does not exist and that everyone, kufar and muslimeen alike, will be together in jannah.

Allah says in the Quran:

"And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers."(Aal-e-Imran, Chapter 3, Verse 85)

You should know that there are not many paths that lead to Allah, there is only one... Islam. To claim that there are many paths is actually a very pagan thing to say and quite irresponsible.

I'm not trying to bash you and I'm by no means implying that you are a kafir... so we're clear. I'm just tired of being bashed and lied about on here by people who profess to be muslims when it's rather clear that some people here have little or no knowledge of Islam at all other than what their local imam feels about it.

There is a lot of misinformation concerning Islam that goes on here. Most of the time I stay out of it because anytime I comment (like this time) I get attacked by the kufar and the 'mods' alike

I mean I think it's sweet that some of you ladies here love Islam and want to talk about it and discuss things here but really Islam was not meant to be about what we 'feel' about it. It's sanctioned by Allah alone and we shouldn't let our personal feelings get in the way of worshipping Him the way He instructs us.

Much of this, you should know, flies in the face of classical Islam.

I trust what scholars say, not my opinion. I could fill the board with worthless dribble from my head like you do but that wouldn't be Islam.

The problem with trusting scholars when you are yourself without knowledge is that you don't have any way to discern their opinions against the tenets of the faith. You are merely a blind follower and it is evident to those who do have the knowledge to discern.

Edited September 2, 2006 by szsz

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

The irony of this claim is that you are unable to prove what you believe. Well, unless you consider disembodied ayat, cut and pastes from other websites, and name-calling proof. You RARELY muster an effort to explain something in yourown words

I trust what scholars say, not my opinion. I could fill the board with worthless dribble from my head like you do but that wouldn't be Islam.

VP,

Sounds to me like the difference between you two is that the "scholars" you seem to trust are the same ones she does not. Which means while their opinion may be meaningful to you, they are not to her.

That's fair, isn't it?

She's clearly someone who has opinions of her own based on her own study. You may not agree with the opinions she's arrived at but at least her opinions are based on her own study while yours are essentially plagiarized. She is capable of critical evaluation of new facts while you are not. She has depth of her own while your depth is borrowed and unoriginal.

Edited September 2, 2006 by Gupt

[Ban Hammer 13,333]

I don't listen to those who change the religion. Charles, you wouldn't know Islam if it bit you on your ear

and isn't that above essentially saying i'm one?

There is a lot of misinformation concerning Islam that goes on here. Most of the time I stay out of it because anytime I comment (like this time) I get attacked by the kufar and the 'mods' alike

that one right there is the one i was looking for

She's clearly someone who has opinions of her own based on her own study. You may not agree with the opinions she's arrived at but at least her opinions are based on her own study while yours are essentially plagiarized. She is capable of critical evaluation of new facts while you are not. She has depth of her own while your depth is borrowed and unoriginal.

ouch ouch body blow body blow and a TKO!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

She's clearly someone who has opinions of her own based on her own study. You may not agree with the opinions she's arrived at but at least her opinions are based on her own study while yours are essentially plagiarized. She is capable of critical evaluation of new facts while you are not. She has depth of her own while your depth is borrowed and unoriginal.

I guess I should come clean. I haven't learned on my own, I was formally educated about Islam in Muslim countries, as was most of my generation in my family. I actually taught Islam in Asia for many years. I'm a political activist, have a masters in Islamic studies, and have worked as a cultural and religious researcher for Muslim lawyers all over the world. This is the family business; learn and teach Islam is what we do.

[Ban Hammer 13,333]

There is a lot of misinformation concerning Islam that goes on here. Most of the time I stay out of it because anytime I comment (like this time) I get attacked by the kufar and the 'mods' alike

right there, as szsz pointed out, you have called people on this board that.

I mean I think it's sweet that some of you ladies here love Islam and want to talk about it and discuss things here but really Islam was not meant to be about what we 'feel' about it. It's sanctioned by Allah alone and we shouldn't let our personal feelings get in the way of worshipping Him the way He instructs us.

perhaps you should read that first sentence again?

I guess I should come clean. I haven't learned on my own, I was formally educated about Islam in Muslim countries, as was most of my generation in my family. I actually taught Islam in Asia for many years. I'm a political activist, have a masters in Islamic studies, and have worked as a cultural and religious researcher for Muslim lawyers all over the world. This is the family business; learn and teach Islam is what we do.

as i've stated before, i know who's real here and who's memorex. and you're the real deal