Marriage contract

[Veiled Princess 1]

Just in case VP has you on iggy.. she should be able to read this just fine

Ah how sweet gupt for bringing shaytaan into my life. thanks....

[Sofiyya 1,687]

More cut and paste about the Wahabis:

UCLA Islamic Law Professor Fears Unseen Enemy

Khaled Abou el Fadl has been targeted by gunfire at home and threats reported in Arabic-language media.

By Teresa Watanabe

Times Staff Writer

August 27, 2006

Who wants Khaled Abou el Fadl dead?

The question has haunted the UCLA Islamic law professor since April, when he says a bullet whizzed past his ear and lodged in a book as he was standing near his living room bookshelf in front of his open front door.

His fears intensified this month, after a news report in the Anaheim-based Al Watan newspaper and other Arabic-language media carried what Abou el Fadl calls a "solicitation of murder" against him. The article reported that Iranian extremists had declared it permissible to spill his blood because the scholar purportedly advised President Bush to support Israel's strike against Lebanon, resist a cease-fire with the Hezbollah militia and block the Islamist movement.

Abou el Fadl, one of the nation's most prominent critics of Saudi Arabia's puritanical practice of Islam known as Wahhabism, called the news report "a total fabrication." He said he has never met or advised Bush, although the White House appointed him to the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom in 2003. He also said he opposed the Israeli strike on Lebanon and was highly critical of U.S. foreign policy in the Mideast.

"There is not one iota of truth in it," Abou el Fadl, 42, said of the news report, first published in early August in an Egyptian news outlet, Al-Misriyun, before being reprinted in the Anaheim paper and elsewhere.

But members of the FBI's joint terrorism task force, which independently picked up the news report, were so concerned that they visited Abou el Fadl recently to warn him to take security precautions, the scholar said in an interview last week. He added that he has also met with FBI agents and University of California police, who have begun implementing heightened security measures.

FBI officials declined to comment, although they did not deny Abou el Fadl's account of their visits. The Los Angeles police detective assigned to investigate the April shooting could not be reached for comment.

The editor of Al Watan, a popular Arabic-language weekly newspaper, did not return phone calls for comment. A man who answered the phone at Al Watan's listed number said only that the story was published because "it's news, and we publish news," before hanging up.

It is not clear how widely the report has circulated. Abou el Fadl said he was contacted for interviews about it by at least 20 journalists from major Mideast print and broadcast publications earlier this month. But the Washington-based Middle East Media Research Institute, which monitors and translates Arabic-language reports, found a story about it only in Al Watan. Afra Jalabi, a Montreal-based journalist and columnist for a Saudi newspaper, said she found it on several Arabic-language websites and discussion forums several days ago but that it has now largely disappeared from cyberspace.

Hussam Ayloush, executive director of the Anaheim office of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said Al Watan's website is highly popular for its populist criticism of undemocratic Mideast regimes and its sometimes sensational content. But he said that in his constant interactions with Muslims, he has heard no one discuss the report about Abou el Fadl.

Still, Abou el Fadl said the report and the gunshot have made him more wary this time than after past threats.

"I've received so many death threats, and I've never had an impending sense of doom," he said. "This time, we're taking it more seriously."

Abou el Fadl has long drawn controversy. A Kuwaiti native of Egyptian descent, he was imprisoned and persecuted in the Mideast during the 1980s for his pro-democracy writings. He fled to the United States in 1982 to attend Yale University and earned a law degree at the University of Pennsylvania. In 1998, he completed his doctorate in Islamic law at Princeton University and was recruited to UCLA.

In his prolific writings, lectures and expert testimony, Abou el Fadl has helped document human rights abuses in several Mideast countries, including Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt and Israel. He asserts some views about women's rights that are too edgy for many Muslims — that women may lead men in prayer, for instance.

But he is best known for his outspoken criticism of the Wahhabi creed. The literalist interpretation of Islam was inspired by an 18th century Arabian evangelist, Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab, as a back-to-basics movement to cleanse the tradition of polytheistic corruptions and other heretical innovations. Abou el Fadl, however, argues that the creed denigrates women and non-Muslims, dehumanizes those who do not follow it and has laid the ideological groundwork for Osama bin Laden's terrorist crusades.

In his latest book, "The Great Theft: Wrestling Islam From the Extremists," Abou el Fadl calls for a "counter-jihad" of moderate Muslims to destroy the influence and legitimacy of puritanical Islam.

In the last year, he has promoted his message to Muslim audiences overseas in lecture tours in Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore; at the American and British universities in Cairo; and in numerous interviews with Mideast and Southeast Asian media.

Abou el Fadl suspects the flurry of attention on him overseas may have drawn the latest attacks. He is unsure who may be behind them. But he said he does not intend to back down.

"If they scare me into silence, they will have succeeded," he said. "I'm not going to give them that victory."

[Ban Hammer 13,334]

Leave it up to Charles to post something so immoral in a religious discussion.

It really does not surprise me to see who it is that agrees with SZSZ warped view of Islam. Thank you for proving this point Charles

so if i were to agree with you, then obviously it would be because you are always right, eh?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Ah how sweet gupt for bringing shaytaan into my life. thanks....

No problem, gupt, she did that to herself, but has a tendencies to blame others for her shortcomings.

[Veiled Princess 1]

Leave it up to Charles to post something so immoral in a religious discussion.

It really does not surprise me to see who it is that agrees with SZSZ warped view of Islam. Thank you for proving this point Charles

so if i were to agree with you, then obviously it would be because you are always right, eh?

We don't have to worry about that happening so it's a moot point.

[Ban Hammer 13,334]

Leave it up to Charles to post something so immoral in a religious discussion.

It really does not surprise me to see who it is that agrees with SZSZ warped view of Islam. Thank you for proving this point Charles

so if i were to agree with you, then obviously it would be because you are always right, eh?

We don't have to worry about that happening so it's a moot point.

i agree!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

so if i were to agree with you, then obviously it would be because you are always right, eh?

We don't have to worry about that happening so it's a moot point.

Yea, coz she certainly ain't always right

[Veiled Princess 1]

What is a Salafi and What is Salafism?

The reader will notice that the word "Wahhabi" is always indented with quotation marks here at TheWahhabiMyth.com. Those who are labelled with this word do not themselves use this term, as it is used as a means of belittlement. The reasons for the rejection of this term are clearly outlined throughout this book. The correct way of referring to them is by terming them Salafis, as they are those who adhere to the way of the Salaf - the Prophet Muhammad (may Allah raise his rank and grant him peace) and his companions.

Following the way of the Salaf is the way which has been legislated in the Quran and Sunnah, the very sources of Islam. The Prophet (may Allah raise his rank and grant him peace) said to his daughter Fatimah: "Indeed, I am for you a blessed Salaf."

When asked about which was the correct and acceptable way of understanding Islam, the Prophet (may Allah raise his rank and grant him peace) replied by saying: "That which I and my companions are upon."

Similarly, Allah says in the Quran that He is pleased with the companions "and also those who follow them exactly (in faith)."

As such, He said regarding the Prophet (may Allah raise his rank and grant him security) and his companions:

"So if they believe as you (i.e. the Salaf) believe, they are indeed rightly guided."

All of the orthodox scholars of Islam followed the way of the Salaf in understanding religion. Early scholars such as Imam al-Awzaa'ee, who died 157 years after the Prophet's emigration to Medina, said: "Be patient upon the Sunnah, and stop where the people (i.e. the Salaf) stopped, and say what they said, and refrain from what they refrained from, and follow the path of your righteous Salaf; for verily, sufficient for you is what was sufficient for them."

Today, one of the famous Sunni schools of jurisprudence is named after a scholar named Abu Haneefah. Millions of Muslims all over the world ascribe themselves to his school of jurisprudence; those who the media would term "mainstream" Muslims. Regarding adherence to the Salafi methodology, he said, "Adhere to the narrations and way of the Salaf, and beware of newly invented matters (in religion), for all of it is innovation."

The orthodox scholars who came after these early generations also followed the understanding of the Salaf in religious matters. Imam ath-Thahabi said: "It is authentically related from ad-Daraqutni (a scholar from approximately 1,000 years ago) that he said: There is nothing more despised by me than 'ilmul-kalaam (innovated speech and rhetoric). I (adh-Thahabee) say: The man never entered into 'ilmul-kalaam, nor did he enter into argumentation (i.e. philosophy), he did not delve into that. Rather, he was Salafee (a follower of the Salaf)."

The present day scholars who stick to the mainstream understanding of Islam also ascribe themselves to the way of the Salaf. Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan is considered to be one of the most knowledgeable of scholars alive today. Regarding Salafism, he made the following remark: "It is not a party from amongst the various parties… Hence Salafism is a group of people who are upon the way of the Salaf, upon what the Messenger (may Allah raise his rank and grant him peace) and his Companions were upon; and it is not a party from amongst the contemporary groups present today."

The media claim that Salafis/"Wahhabis" believe that all those who do not follow their form of Islam are heathens" is a tall tale. Salafis believe that those Muslims who do not follow the understanding of the Salaf are not adhering to these and other clear texts. As such, they do not fall under the above-mentioned Quranic verse as being "rightly guided." Salafis distinguish between those who fall into religious innovation and those who fall into disbelief.

When considering the proofs which are contained within the Quran and Sunnah and the statements of all the orthodox scholars of Islam from the earliest generations to the present time, it becomes obvious that it is a great blunder for the media to refer to Salafism as being a new movement called "Wahhabism" which came about only two centuries ago during the time of Muhammad Ibn Abdul-Wahhab in Saudi Arabia.

"So after the truth, what else can there be, save error?" [Quran 10:32]

- abridged from the book: The 'Wahhabi' Myth

[Sofiyya 1,687]

But he is best known for his outspoken criticism of the Wahhabi creed. The literalist interpretation of Islam was inspired by an 18th century Arabian evangelist, Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab, as a back-to-basics movement to cleanse the tradition of polytheistic corruptions and other heretical innovations. Abou el Fadl, however, argues that the creed denigrates women and non-Muslims, dehumanizes those who do not follow it and has laid the ideological groundwork for Osama bin Laden's terrorist crusades.

I'm sure that no one has noticed any denigration of women and non-Muslims, or dehumanizing of those who do not agree with Wahabism (she would call it Salafiism, but they are interchangable) in any of Layla's posts, have you?

Edited September 1, 2006 by szsz

[UmmSqueakster 54]

I think it's would be worthwhile that if we're going to debate these issues that we at least admit that the traditional view, held by most people throughout history, is in line with VP's interpretations of these verses on both the polygany and christians/jews issue. We can examine the source texts, the Qur'an and the Sunnah, but we also need to examine our history. If people would like to interpret it differently, fine, by all means go ahead. But, don't forget that it's an interpretation that differs from the majority. If you don't like the majority, fine. But, it's still a common opinion.

This is one of themost fascinating thing about being around all these converts. You speak of a majority, as if you know what the majority believes, but I have been among the majority for 53 years, and I have no idea where they get their Islamic education from. I have studied and worked with scholars, led my life in a manner that allowed me to be close to the philosophy, history and theology of Islam, then I come here where there are a lot of covert women who have been Muslim for a hot minute and they know everything and I know nothing.

Finding the majority opinion isn't something magic and mysterious that only someone who's been a muslim X number of years knows. The major scholars are there, the main opinions of various madhabs are there, major quranic commentary is there, etc. We study with people who have studied probably as much as you. Shockingly, the people I study with come to very different conclusions from you. *gasp* muslims disagree? say it ain't so! At least when our great scholars of the past disagreed, they did so with dignity and adab. That's sorely lacking round here.

Why are we making this a convert vs. born muslim issue? Can't we simply address the issues? Seriously, the patronizing is getting a little old. Certainly, many converts suffer from convertitis. That doesn't make their opinions invalid.

[Veiled Princess 1]

Thx!

There is something so weird abut all this. I would never ig someone just because we disagree. Isn't that an indication of a lack of confidence in what you believe? I would say so!

I don't iggy you because we simply disagree. You have been on my iggy for quite some time because I feel you are an innovator and a misguider AND because it's like talking to a wall with you... you just keeping going around in circles asking the same questions and when I answer them you accuse me of not answering you, yet when I ask you for proof you consider your 'ideas' proof and type 20 pages of poo without even so much as one proof from the Quran or Sunnah.

Furthermore, you love to insult me because I copy and paste what other people with knowledge have to say about something. Something that I have read and agree with because they show the proof for what they have claimed. What's wrong with this?

I think I have stated many times that my writing skills are not good.... I admit that. It is difficult for me to compile my thoughts on paper for someone else to read and try to understand. I'm not ashamed of it and I don't try to hide it by typing full page essays from my butt. I think most people here will agree that trying to read something I've posted can be quite a task at times.

Furthermore, I don't know a lot about Islam but I do read a lot. I don't trust anyone who doesn't show me proof from the Quran and Sunnah. That is the reason I trust the scholars I do because they always have their proof for any claim they make. I know I have a lot to learn about Islam and I learn something new every day alhamdulilah. I have only had around 2 years to learn while others like you have had your whole life. Does that make you better than me? Not at all. At least I care about learning the truth and not how I can change it to make it fit my evil desires.

Those scholars who I trust have devoted their entire lives to studying the Quran and ahadith and of course I would trust them over what I might first think about something. Because my understanding is limited to only two years while they have the whole of their lives and they have proven to me that they are trustworthy. Those men and women are righteous and pious people who devote their lives to Allah, may Allah bless them.

You don't like when I quote Quran? What else would you have me refer to in matters of Islam? Is the Quran not our main reference? Your main point of reference tends to be mostly your opinion and big talk but the Quran and the Sunnah are the only reference I need. I don't see that you believe in either one and that is sad.

One last note. I iggy you because you lie constantly. You twist meanings and claim that you're a native speaker so you know about it but no one is a 'native speaker' of the form of Arabic the Quran is written in. Even native Arabic speakers have to study that form of Arabic.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Layla threatens those who would think for themselves, but she ignores the fact that ijtihad, the practice of individual interpretation, is a long-standing part of Islamic jurisprudence. Allah has made it clear that the Message, the rules and the limits are His to claim, but He does allow for mortal choice between competing views (ikhtiyar).

The early imams, including Hanfi, understood that their mortal decisions were worthy of challenge, debate and change, as they were fallible and their rulings subject to rejection:

Imam Hanifa: "It is not permitted for anyone to accept our views if they do not know from where we got them."

Imam Malik ibn Anas: "Truly I am only a mortal: I make mistakes (sometimes) and I am correct (sometimes). Therefore, look into my opinions: all that agrees with the Book and the Sunnah accept it; and all that does not agree with the Book and the Sunnah, ignore it."

Also: "Everyone after the Prophet will have his sayings accepted and rejected - not so the Prophet."

Imam Shafi’i: "If you find in my writings something different to the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah, then speak on the basis of the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah, and leave what I have said."

And: "The Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah reach, as well as escape from, every one of us. So whenever I voice my opinion, or formulate a principle, where something contrary to my view exists on the authority of the Messenger of Allah, then the correct view is what the Messenger of Allah has said, and it is my view."

Imam Hanbal: "Do not follow my opinion; neither follow the opinion of Malik, nor Shafi'i, nor Awzaa'i, nor Thawri, but take from where they took."

And: "Do not copy your Deen from anyone of these, but whatever comes from the Prophet and his Companions, take it; next are their Successors, where a man has a choice."

Also: "The opinion of Awzaa'i, the opinion of Malik, the opinion of Hanefah: all of it is opinion, and it is all equal in my eyes. However, the proof is in the narrations and his Companions)."

Layla has offered nothing other than disembodied, out of context ayat to support her view that anyone who disagrees with her accepted view is disagreeing with Allah and the Prophet. Such arrogance is a form of blasphemy, for she is not demanding us to agree with God, but to agree with her, as she has shown NOTHING that precludes her views about polygyny and whether ahl al kitab will enter heaven - no history, no explanation of the contradictions she ignores, no original thought. Just threats, as if God Himself is sure to strike down her opponents as she points them out.

Truth is deeper than her meager understanding of it. Stating the obvious about her is not the same as mocking her.

[Veiled Princess 1]

But he is best known for his outspoken criticism of the Wahhabi creed. The literalist interpretation of Islam was inspired by an 18th century Arabian evangelist, Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab, as a back-to-basics movement to cleanse the tradition of polytheistic corruptions and other heretical innovations. Abou el Fadl, however, argues that the creed denigrates women and non-Muslims, dehumanizes those who do not follow it and has laid the ideological groundwork for Osama bin Laden's terrorist crusades.

I'm sure that no one has noticed any denigration of women and non-Muslims, or dehumanizing of those who do not agree with Wahabism (she would call it Salafiism, but they are interchangable) in any of Layla's posts, have you?

I do not degrade women or dehumanize anyone. And if this is your way of implying that I'm a terrorist or affililated with it or a sympathizer with it in anyway you will find yourself reported.

The only attack you can come up with now is to compare me to bin laden. What a joke. If you can't prove my belief wrong just turn me into a terrorist and that will win your case?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Finding the majority opinion isn't something magic and mysterious that only someone who's been a muslim X number of years knows. The major scholars are there, the main opinions of various madhabs are there, major quranic commentary is there, etc. We study with people who have studied probably as much as you. Shockingly, the people I study with come to very different conclusions from you. *gasp* muslims disagree? say it ain't so! At least when our great scholars of the past disagreed, they did so with dignity and adab. That's sorely lacking round here.

Why is your input limited to cheerleading Layla, and mentioning scholars with no proof of what they say and what their sources are, Rahma? Do you want a piece of this, or what? Or do you just want to stand on a pedestal and keep your hands clean while admonishing others?

Why are we making this a convert vs. born muslim issue? Can't we simply address the issues? Seriously, the patronizing is getting a little old. Certainly, many converts suffer from convertitis. That doesn't make their opinions invalid.

I have felt long ago that the patronizing of the converts was way old and totally unearned. If their views are so valid, why do thay have such a difficult time with nuance and supporting them without cut and paste?

When do you develop your own voices?

I do not degrade women or dehumanize anyone. And if this is your way of implying that I'm a terrorist or affililated with it or a sympathizer with it in anyway you will find yourself reported.

The only attack you can come up with now is to compare me to bin laden. What a joke. If you can't prove my belief wrong just turn me into a terrorist and that will win your case?

Wah wah! I haven't mentioned terrorist and Layla in the same sentence. I have noted your lame attempt to claim that disagreeing with you equals disagreeing with God.

Edited September 1, 2006 by szsz

[sarah and hicham 3]

Here's a question I have about Islam, I hope it will help lighten things up a bit:

The Bible says that a miracle is something that defies the laws of nature and Muslims say that the Quran is a miracle because it was tranmitted perfectly without alteration and flaw till the second coming.

So, since the Harry Potter books will be transmitted perfectly without alteration or flaw and will be around until the second coming does that make the Harry Potter books a miracle?

I do not see how someone could be angry at this, but I will add that this is not to upset anyone just to try to lighten things up!