Marriage contract

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Maybe not all Christians believe in the Trinity, but they all believe Jesus is God, so what difference does that make to your argument that none of them will enter heaven?

No they don't

You're kidding, right?

Islam means submission to the Will of God. It has existed since Adam, not since Muhammad. It is the Message that was sent to all the world. You don't talk as if you grasp that fact; you make the timeline start with Muhammad as if He is the first prophet of Islam rather than the last.

No but they must accept the Quran as the word of Allah and Muhammad as His last messenger and since they don't they are disbelievers and have been promised hell.

No they haven't. You want to ignore the three ayat I posted, but you cannot and maintain credibility. Since Islam has existed since Adam, and you believe that Allah has condenmed all non-Muslims to hell, then you cannot say that there will be ANY ahl al kitab who will go to heaven, but Allah clearly has said that is so.

God is not interested in labels, but in deeds. That is why you are wrong about the imporatnce of labels such as Muslim, Christian and Jew having the weight you give them. And that is why I am right to believe that God didn't lie when He said there will be Christians and Jews in heaven.

I don't believe He lied either. I have not denied that there will be jews and christians in heaven... I'm just stating that anyone who dies as a jew or christian today having rejected the Quran and Muhammad are non-believers and have been promised hell. Every prophet will come on JD with his followers.

You have denied there will be ahl al kitab in heaven, Layla. You have done it in stages, but you have done so. You keep saying that the Quran and Muhammad are the ticket, but since Islam has existed since Adam, they are not the only ticket. All who existed have received the Message and among them will be ahl al kitab who will enter heaven.

[Veiled Princess 1]

szsz used the word kufar in the correct context, you DID NOT. you used it as a derogatory label.. and everyone here agrees.

What about the nonsense where you called a 7th grader a hooker? sounds like nonsense to me!

Why not discuss the topic at hand and stop bringing up other subjects in an attempt to slander me? Not very muslim of you

SZSZ, IMHO, is an innovator and only wishes to change Islam to fit her view of it... therefore, I really do not give a rat's behind what she says about anything. But that's just MY HUMBLE OPINION.

[iceyspots 0]

szsz used the word kufar in the correct context, you DID NOT. you used it as a derogatory label.. and everyone here agrees.

What about the nonsense where you called a 7th grader a hooker? sounds like nonsense to me!

Why not discuss the topic at hand and stop bringing up other subjects in an attempt to slander me? Not very muslim of you

SZSZ, IMHO, is an innovator and only wishes to change Islam to fit her view of it... therefore, I really do not give a rat's behind what she says about anything. But that's just MY HUMBLE OPINION.

It's not very islamic to slander 7th graders either. Credibility has gone down the drain.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Allah says that there is no compulsion in religion. He also says that He will guide who He may. He will judge between us and I am happy to let Him. If I make it to heaven and find that there are Christians and Jews there too, I will not be disappointed to share paradise with them, for I have long ago ceased trying to correct Him. I will bow to His Judgment.

SZSZ, IMHO, is an innovator and only wishes to change Islam to fit her view of it... therefore, I really do not give a rat's behind what she says about anything. But that's just MY HUMBLE OPINION.

Stock reply, like what you think equals a rat's ###.

[Veiled Princess 1]

Maybe not all Christians believe in the Trinity, but they all believe Jesus is God, so what difference does that make to your argument that none of them will enter heaven?

No they don't

You're kidding, right?

No, I'm not. I was raised Christian and have been taught by and lived with Christians of various sects all my life and some do not believe Jesus was a god.

Furthermore, early christian writings prove that early christians did not believe this either. Read the Gospel of Barnabas and see for yourself, also, the Apoclypse of Peter (I think) denies that Jesus died and predicts Muhammad's coming. Just because they are not in the different bibles today does not mean that noone ever followed them.

No they haven't. You want to ignore the three ayat I posted, but you cannot and maintain credibility. Since Islam has existed since Adam, and you believe that Allah has condenmed all non-Muslims to hell, then you cannot say that there will be ANY ahl al kitab who will go to heaven, but Allah clearly has said that is so.

I have told you my understanding of the ayat you posted. You are the one who ignore the ayat I have posted.

You have denied there will be ahl al kitab in heaven, Layla. You have done it in stages, but you have done so. You keep saying that the Quran and Muhammad are the ticket, but since Islam has existed since Adam, they are not the only ticket. All who existed have received the Message and among them will be ahl al kitab who will enter heaven.

I most certainly have not... either you are plain THICK or you're just messing around. I deny that there will be any jews or christians who have or will die after the Quran and Muhammad and rejecting it that will be in heaven but those who were true believers before that will be in heaven on JD as promised. Also, those ppl of the book who accept and follow the Quran and Muhammad will also be there.

It's not very islamic to slander 7th graders either.

That is true.

[The_dip_sticks 0]

Wow crazy action here tonight. I wonder in the first place why some Muslims choose to follow man made books with their own interpretations. All these little side books like the hadiths and so on just twist the basis of Islam itself. My husband is a Muslim and he follows strictly the Quran and the Quran only. He tells me e that 90% of Muslims lose focus when they start following all these other l man intepretations and opinions. If the prophet gave the Quran for the people to follow then why dont they do just that?

I mean does the Quran include the hadiths? No it does not they were made apart. If God wanted people to follow hadiths an all these other manuals he would of included them in the holy book itself. As soon as the Muslims deserted the Quran in favor of the Hadiths and Sunna books, their true Islam was corrupted beyond belief and their practice of Islam.

God told the believers that His book, the Quran is complete, perfect and fully detailed, see 6:19,38,114, & 12:111. God reminded them that He does not run out of words, and if He so willed He could have given us more than one Quran , if He would have deemed it necessary, see 18:109 and 31:27

God, the Knower of all things, the Cognizant, knows that after the death of the Prophet Muhammed people will invent lies about the prophet and call it Hadiths and Sunna. God, ahead of all of them used the word Hadith in the Quran. God gave His true believers a strong start with the word Hadith and He told them which Hadith they should accept, the HADITH OF GOD ONLY. The word Hadith has been used several times in the Quran ( about 31 times in different forms, 18 of them with the exact word HADITH). None of the good hadiths in the Quran refer to what the Muslims nowadays believe is Muhammed's Hadiths. The word Sunna in the Quran never referred to Muhammed's sunna.

[Henia 11]

There has been recent discussion about the fact of whether Christians and Jews will be going to heaven along with Muslims (inchallah!). The argument is such: Christians and Jews who are isolated from Islam have the possibility to go to heaven but those who have been exposed to Islam do not. Also certain verses in the Quran concerning Christians and Jews going to heaven have been nullified by later verses.

The Qur’an has very strongly negated the idea that the Jannah or the bliss in the life hereafter – the Paradise – is the right of any particular religious group. Whether one ascribes oneself to the Muslim or to any other belief, the criteria for success in the hereafter is going to be his true faith in the Almighty and in the Day of reckoning.

According to the Qur’anic view about life, each individual who lives on the face of this earth is put in a test by the Almighty. Whether born to Muslim or Jewish or Christian parents, each individual is being tested for his honest and unbiased search for and surrender to the Truth, as he sees and understands it. To go through this test, God has set upon us the sense and the intellect to judge right from wrong.

A close look at our general attitude towards religion and religious beliefs shows that we normally go through life with the beliefs that we inherit from our parents. If we are born in a Muslim family, there is a greater chance that we shall remain Muslims through out our lives. The same holds true in other cases as well. But unfortunately, this passive belief shall have absolutely no importnace on the Day of Judgment. Whether we attended the Sunday Church or the Friday Congregation shall only have a secondary importance. The first thing that would be judged is whether the individual truly searched for the Truth or not and then, whether he lived his life in accordance with that Truth or not.

In the light of the above explanation, in my opinion, success in the hereafter is not dependent on ascribing to any one or the other group. It is basically dependent on my attitude towards searching for and submitting to the Truth. Thus, those Christians who, without any prejudice, had searched for the Truth and had submitted to it, shall be among those who are successful in the hereafter. While those who called themselves Muslims in this world, might fail in the hereafter on the account that they did not seriously and without any bias, seek the Truth or that even after knowing the Truth, did not submit to it or lived their lives in accordance with it.

This is the general principle of success and/or failure in the test of the life of this world. Thus, the criteria of success or failure is one that depends purely on the internal mechanism of the human soul and intellect. Because we cannot say that a particular person has rejected Islam (or whatever we hold to be the Truth) after being thoroughly convinced that Islam is the divine truth, we therefore, cannot pass a judgment regarding his success or failure in the hereafter. It is only the Omniscient God who really knows whether a person rejected after being truly convinced of the Truth or whether his rejection was because of some misunderstanding or unanswered questions, regarding that Truth. On the day of reckoning, God shall give His decision on the basis of His absolute knowledge about the reasons of the rejection of the individuals.

According to the Qur’an, when a messenger of Allah (Rasu’l as distinct from Nab’i) is sent towards a people, he removes all doubts that lie in people’s minds regarding the Truth. He answers all their questions. Truth becomes evidently distinct from falsehood. Those who accept his message, accept it with full knowledge of what is right and what is wrong; and those who reject his message, reject it after gaining full knowledge that it is the Truth they are rejecting. It is because of this particular position of the messengers (Rasu’l) of Allah that it becomes evident that those who are rejecting his call are rejecting the Truth, and those who are accepting his call are submitting to the Truth. The former are, thus, bound to be thrown in the hell fire and the latter are promised the bliss of paradise. Therefore the Jews and Christians who lived during the life of the Prophet and who did not accept his message are doomed. We, even with our limited knowledge know about this fact, because if as the Muslims hold, Mohammad (pbuh) was a true messenger of God, then those Jews and Christians who lived during the life of the Prophet (pbuh) rejected the Truth knowingly. They shall have no excuse for their rejection. It is these Jews and Christians that are sure to be doomed. As far as the Jews and Christians of other times and places are concerned, they are subjected to the same test in the life of this world. If they submit to whatever they truly believe to be the Truth and live their life in accordance with that Truth, they shall be successful. The case of the Muslims is not any different.

I hope this helps. And remember Allah knows best...

Regards

Henia

[Veiled Princess 1]

Wow crazy action here tonight. I wonder in the first place why some Muslims choose to follow man made books with their own interpretations. All these little side books like the hadiths and so on just twist the basis of Islam itself. My husband is a Muslim and he follows strictly the Quran and the Quran only. He tells me e that 90% of Muslims lose focus when they start following all these other l man intepretations and opinions. If the prophet gave the Quran for the people to follow then why dont they do just that?

I mean does the Quran include the hadiths? No it does not they were made apart. If God wanted people to follow hadiths an all these other manuals he would of included them in the holy book itself. As soon as the Muslims deserted the Quran in favor of the Hadiths and Sunna books, their true Islam was corrupted beyond belief and their practice of Islam.

God told the believers that His book, the Quran is complete, perfect and fully detailed, see 6:19,38,114, & 12:111. God reminded them that He does not run out of words, and if He so willed He could have given us more than one Quran , if He would have deemed it necessary, see 18:109 and 31:27

God, the Knower of all things, the Cognizant, knows that after the death of the Prophet Muhammed people will invent lies about the prophet and call it Hadiths and Sunna. God, ahead of all of them used the word Hadith in the Quran. God gave His true believers a strong start with the word Hadith and He told them which Hadith they should accept, the HADITH OF GOD ONLY. The word Hadith has been used several times in the Quran ( about 31 times in different forms, 18 of them with the exact word HADITH). None of the good hadiths in the Quran refer to what the Muslims nowadays believe is Muhammed's Hadiths. The word Sunna in the Quran never referred to Muhammed's sunna.

Can we have this discussion tomorrow? This could be an all night thing as well

There has been recent discussion about the fact of whether Christians and Jews will be going to heaven along with Muslims (inchallah!). The argument is such: Christians and Jews who are isolated from Islam have the possibility to go to heaven but those who have been exposed to Islam do not. Also certain verses in the Quran concerning Christians and Jews going to heaven have been nullified by later verses.

The Qur'an has very strongly negated the idea that the Jannah or the bliss in the life hereafter – the Paradise – is the right of any particular religious group. Whether one ascribes oneself to the Muslim or to any other belief, the criteria for success in the hereafter is going to be his true faith in the Almighty and in the Day of reckoning.

According to the Qur'anic view about life, each individual who lives on the face of this earth is put in a test by the Almighty. Whether born to Muslim or Jewish or Christian parents, each individual is being tested for his honest and unbiased search for and surrender to the Truth, as he sees and understands it. To go through this test, God has set upon us the sense and the intellect to judge right from wrong.

A close look at our general attitude towards religion and religious beliefs shows that we normally go through life with the beliefs that we inherit from our parents. If we are born in a Muslim family, there is a greater chance that we shall remain Muslims through out our lives. The same holds true in other cases as well. But unfortunately, this passive belief shall have absolutely no importnace on the Day of Judgment. Whether we attended the Sunday Church or the Friday Congregation shall only have a secondary importance. The first thing that would be judged is whether the individual truly searched for the Truth or not and then, whether he lived his life in accordance with that Truth or not.

In the light of the above explanation, in my opinion, success in the hereafter is not dependent on ascribing to any one or the other group. It is basically dependent on my attitude towards searching for and submitting to the Truth. Thus, those Christians who, without any prejudice, had searched for the Truth and had submitted to it, shall be among those who are successful in the hereafter. While those who called themselves Muslims in this world, might fail in the hereafter on the account that they did not seriously and without any bias, seek the Truth or that even after knowing the Truth, did not submit to it or lived their lives in accordance with it.

This is the general principle of success and/or failure in the test of the life of this world. Thus, the criteria of success or failure is one that depends purely on the internal mechanism of the human soul and intellect. Because we cannot say that a particular person has rejected Islam (or whatever we hold to be the Truth) after being thoroughly convinced that Islam is the divine truth, we therefore, cannot pass a judgment regarding his success or failure in the hereafter. It is only the Omniscient God who really knows whether a person rejected after being truly convinced of the Truth or whether his rejection was because of some misunderstanding or unanswered questions, regarding that Truth. On the day of reckoning, God shall give His decision on the basis of His absolute knowledge about the reasons of the rejection of the individuals.

According to the Qur'an, when a messenger of Allah (Rasu'l as distinct from Nab'i) is sent towards a people, he removes all doubts that lie in people's minds regarding the Truth. He answers all their questions. Truth becomes evidently distinct from falsehood. Those who accept his message, accept it with full knowledge of what is right and what is wrong; and those who reject his message, reject it after gaining full knowledge that it is the Truth they are rejecting. It is because of this particular position of the messengers (Rasu'l) of Allah that it becomes evident that those who are rejecting his call are rejecting the Truth, and those who are accepting his call are submitting to the Truth. The former are, thus, bound to be thrown in the hell fire and the latter are promised the bliss of paradise. Therefore the Jews and Christians who lived during the life of the Prophet and who did not accept his message are doomed. We, even with our limited knowledge know about this fact, because if as the Muslims hold, Mohammad (pbuh) was a true messenger of God, then those Jews and Christians who lived during the life of the Prophet (pbuh) rejected the Truth knowingly. They shall have no excuse for their rejection. It is these Jews and Christians that are sure to be doomed. As far as the Jews and Christians of other times and places are concerned, they are subjected to the same test in the life of this world. If they submit to whatever they truly believe to be the Truth and live their life in accordance with that Truth, they shall be successful. The case of the Muslims is not any different.

I hope this helps. And remember Allah knows best...

Regards

Henia

Very nicely said and it is only Allah who really knows who will go to heaven or hell.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

No, I'm not. I was raised Christian and have been taught by and lived with Christians of various sects all my life and some do not believe Jesus was a god.

The Trinity and the divinity of Christ was formalized at the first Council of Nicea in 325. The largest and most dominant denominations of Christians adhered to this doctrine before and during Muhammad; for example the Coptics and the Abysinnians. These would be the Christians we are discussing in the context of this topic, not the ones you've lived with.

Furthermore, early christian writings prove that early christians did not believe this either. Read the Gospel of Barnabas and see for yourself, also, the Apoclypse of Peter (I think) denies that Jesus died and predicts Muhammad's coming. Just because they are not in the different bibles today does not mean that noone ever followed them.

They were called Jews. I am aware of the Books that didn't make it into the traditional Bible, but that is like giving equal weight to rejected ahadith. I will let Christians define their dictrine themselves, as we would like to do for Islam.

No they haven't. You want to ignore the three ayat I posted, but you cannot and maintain credibility. Since Islam has existed since Adam, and you believe that Allah has condenmed all non-Muslims to hell, then you cannot say that there will be ANY ahl al kitab who will go to heaven, but Allah clearly has said that is so.

I have told you my understanding of the ayat you posted. You are the one who ignore the ayat I have posted.

You have done a poor job of it. I will not mention children doing a better job.

You have denied there will be ahl al kitab in heaven, Layla. You have done it in stages, but you have done so. You keep saying that the Quran and Muhammad are the ticket, but since Islam has existed since Adam, they are not the only ticket. All who existed have received the Message and among them will be ahl al kitab who will enter heaven.

I most certainly have not... either you are plain THICK or you're just messing around. I deny that there will be any jews or christians who have or will die after the Quran and Muhammad and rejecting it that will be in heaven but those who were true believers before that will be in heaven on JD as promised. Also, those ppl of the book who accept and follow the Quran and Muhammad will also be there.

It is truly difficult to know when to take you seriously because you begin with one absolutist premise, then, in the face of opposition, tend to veer away from your original position.

I have asked you for PROOF that three ayat that plainly say that there will be ahl al kitab in heaven is contradicted, and what you want to convince us of is that the ahl al kitab must become Muslims first. But, that is not what Allah says, and why you haven't answered the question, nor can you seriously deny that you have not proclaimed all ahl al kitab condemned to hell.

Even as I have pointed out to you more than once that Islam did not begin with the Quran and Muhammad, you continue to insist that Muhammad and the Quran are the cut-off point and that all ahl al kitab who died before the Arabs received the Quran will be eligible for heaven and those after will not unless they become Muslims. But that is not what Allah says.

Christians and Jew received the Message LONG BEFORE there was a Muahhamd. What you are saying is they those people can enter heaven even if they rejected the Message before there was a Muhammad or a Quran.

Your position makes the Arabs the focal point of Islam, negating all the eras that Islam existed in before. It makes no sense to ignore all of that because what you are saying is that Islam did not exist BEFORE the Quran and Muhammad, but that is not true and it cancels out your argument.

It would do well for you to take some religion clasess, for it is clear that your gaps in knowledge and logic are an impediment to debate for you.

According to the Qur’an, when a messenger of Allah (Rasu’l as distinct from Nab’i) is sent towards a people, he removes all doubts that lie in people’s minds regarding the Truth. He answers all their questions. Truth becomes evidently distinct from falsehood. Those who accept his message, accept it with full knowledge of what is right and what is wrong; and those who reject his message, reject it after gaining full knowledge that it is the Truth they are rejecting. It is because of this particular position of the messengers (Rasu’l) of Allah that it becomes evident that those who are rejecting his call are rejecting the Truth, and those who are accepting his call are submitting to the Truth. The former are, thus, bound to be thrown in the hell fire and the latter are promised the bliss of paradise. Therefore the Jews and Christians who lived during the life of the Prophet and who did not accept his message are doomed. We, even with our limited knowledge know about this fact, because if as the Muslims hold, Mohammad (pbuh) was a true messenger of God, then those Jews and Christians who lived during the life of the Prophet (pbuh) rejected the Truth knowingly. They shall have no excuse for their rejection. It is these Jews and Christians that are sure to be doomed. As far as the Jews and Christians of other times and places are concerned, they are subjected to the same test in the life of this world. If they submit to whatever they truly believe to be the Truth and live their life in accordance with that Truth, they shall be successful. The case of the Muslims is not any different.

You too have fallen into the trap of believing that Islam belonged to the Arabs, began with them, and was defined by them. Forget about the other prophets, they had no meaning. Forget about people who were not among the Arabs, they were not important to God.

Forget God, for He is no longer in control of Judgement.

[The_dip_sticks 0]

Edited:

Wow crazy action here tonight. I wonder in the first place why some Muslims choose to follow man made books with their own interpretations. All these little side books like the hadiths and so on just twist the basis of Islam itself. My husband is a Muslim and he follows strictly the Quran and the Quran only. He tells me e that 90% of Muslims lose focus when they start following all these other l man intepretations and opinions. If the prophet gave the Quran for the people to follow then why dont they do just that?

I mean does the Quran include the hadiths? No it does not they were made apart. If God wanted people to follow hadiths an all these other manuals he would of included them in the holy book itself. As soon as the Muslims deserted the Quran in favor of the Hadiths and Sunna books, their true Islam was corrupted beyond belief and their practice of Islam.

God told the believers that His book, the Quran is complete, perfect and fully detailed, see 6:19,38,114, & 12:111. God reminded them that He does not run out of words, and if He so willed He could have given us more than one Quran , if He would have deemed it necessary, see 18:109 and 31:27

God, the Knower of all things, the Cognizant, knows that after the death of the Prophet Muhammed people will invent lies about the prophet and call it Hadiths and Sunna. God, ahead of all of them used the word Hadith in the Quran. God gave His true believers a strong start with the word Hadith and He told them which Hadith they should accept, the HADITH OF GOD ONLY. The word Hadith has been used several times in the Quran ( about 31 times in different forms, 18 of them with the exact word HADITH). None of the good hadiths in the Quran refer to what the Muslims nowadays believe is Muhammed's Hadiths. The word Sunna in the Quran never referred to Muhammed's sunna

The blasphemy is evident when they claim that Hadith and Sunna are divine revelations Do they not realize that God Almighty is capable of preserving His revelations?

If people want to follow their true religion then why not do just as they were told? Muslims should obey THE PROPHET MUHAMMED. God in the Quran clearly states that obeying the Prophet is the same like obeying Him. No one should consider himself true Muslim unless he obeys and follow the prophet Muhammed. Obeying him is to follow the words that came from his mouth inspired by God , the Quran. Without getting into more details , review for yourself the verses, 6:19, 50:45,16:44, 16:64,14:1,6:155,, 4:105, 18:27 .....etc. to see that Quran is the only message of Muhammed.

"Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "God's. He is the witness between me and you that this Quran (Not Quran, Hadith and Sunna) has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches......" 6:19

".........remind with this Quran (Not Quran, Hadith and Sunna) , those who reverence My warnings." 50:45 Please read the other mentioned verses for yourself.

When the prophet Muhammed died, he left behind only ONE book, the Quran. The ONLY book that the prophet Muhammed followed was the Quran.

Those who follow the Quran are following the Prophet Muhammed , those who are following the alleged Hadith and Sunna are not following the Prophet but following those who wrote these books. Following anybody but God's commandments in the Quran, is idol-worship.

[Captain Ewok 1,871]

Everyone please chill. Some of you have too many personal attacks going around. Play nice -- please. I don;t want to break out the moderator panel!

[The_dip_sticks 0]

I’m Catholic and from what I understand Islam, Judaism, and Christianity, all have one fundamental belief in the existence of ONE God all mighty. These religions all teach us of one Supreme Being, in accepting him for our salvation on judgment day. So that means that we all have a chance at heaven because all three religions teach the same basic principle. Whether we choose to accept, believe, or submit to GOD/ALLAH that’s up to us. It does not matter how we go about accepting and carrying out this idea as long as we do it. It all boils down to the same concept. These three religions share the same basic principle. As long as we don’t lose the fundamental idea of each faith, then we all have a chance at heaven. God does not discriminate on the basis of race color or religion. He truly knows what is in our hearts.

No, I'm not. I was raised Christian and have been taught by and lived with Christians of

various sects all my life and some do not believe Jesus was a god.

The Trinity and the divinity of Christ was formalized at the first Council of Nicea in 325. The largest and most dominant denominations of Christians adhered to this doctrine before and during Muhammad; for example the Coptics and the Abysinnians. These would be the Christians we are discussing in the context of this topic, not the ones you've lived with.

Furthermore, early christian writings prove that early christians did not believe this either. Read the Gospel of Barnabas and see for yourself, also, the Apoclypse of Peter (I think) denies that Jesus died and predicts Muhammad's coming. Just because they are not in the different bibles today does not mean that noone ever followed them.

They were called Jews. I am aware of the Books that didn't make it into the traditional Bible, but that is like giving equal weight to rejected ahadith. I will let Christians define their dictrine themselves, as we would like to do for Islam.

No they haven't. You want to ignore the three ayat I posted, but you cannot and maintain credibility. Since Islam has existed since Adam, and you believe that Allah has condenmed all non-Muslims to hell, then you cannot say that there will be ANY ahl al kitab who will go to heaven, but Allah clearly has said that is so.

I have told you my understanding of the ayat you posted. You are the one who ignore the ayat I have posted.

You have done a poor job of it. I will not mention children doing a better job.

You have denied there will be ahl al kitab in heaven, Layla. You have done it in stages, but you have done so. You keep saying that the Quran and Muhammad are the ticket, but since Islam has existed since Adam, they are not the only ticket. All who existed have received the Message and among them will be ahl al kitab who will enter heaven.

I most certainly have not... either you are plain THICK or you're just messing around. I deny that there will be any jews or christians who have or will die after the Quran and Muhammad and rejecting it that will be in heaven but those who were true believers before that will be in heaven on JD as promised. Also, those ppl of the book who accept and follow the Quran and Muhammad will also be there.

It is truly difficult to know when to take you seriously because you begin with one absolutist premise, then, in the face of opposition, tend to veer away from your original position.

I have asked you for PROOF that three ayat that plainly say that there will be ahl al kitab in heaven is contradicted, and what you want to convince us of is that the ahl al kitab must become Muslims first. But, that is not what Allah says, and why you haven't answered the question, nor can you seriously deny that you have not proclaimed all ahl al kitab condemned to hell.

Even as I have pointed out to you more than once that Islam did not begin with the Quran and Muhammad, you continue to insist that Muhammad and the Quran are the cut-off point and that all ahl al kitab who died before the Arabs received the Quran will be eligible for heaven and those after will not unless they become Muslims. But that is not what Allah says.

Christians and Jew received the Message LONG BEFORE there was a Muahhamd. What you are saying is they those people can enter heaven even if they rejected the Message before there was a Muhammad or a Quran.

Your position makes the Arabs the focal point of Islam, negating all the eras that Islam existed in before. It makes no sense to ignore all of that because what you are saying is that Islam did not exist BEFORE the Quran and Muhammad, but that is not true and it cancels out your argument.

It would do well for you to take some religion clasess, for it is clear that your gaps in knowledge and logic are an impediment to debate for you.

According to the Qur’an, when a messenger of Allah (Rasu’l as distinct from Nab’i) is sent towards a people, he removes all doubts that lie in people’s minds regarding the Truth. He answers all their questions. Truth becomes evidently distinct from falsehood. Those who accept his message, accept it with full knowledge of what is right and what is wrong; and those who reject his message, reject it after gaining full knowledge that it is the Truth they are rejecting. It is because of this particular position of the messengers (Rasu’l) of Allah that it becomes evident that those who are rejecting his call are rejecting the Truth, and those who are accepting his call are submitting to the Truth. The former are, thus, bound to be thrown in the hell fire and the latter are promised the bliss of paradise. Therefore the Jews and Christians who lived during the life of the Prophet and who did not accept his message are doomed. We, even with our limited knowledge know about this fact, because if as the Muslims hold, Mohammad (pbuh) was a true messenger of God, then those Jews and Christians who lived during the life of the Prophet (pbuh) rejected the Truth knowingly. They shall have no excuse for their rejection. It is these Jews and Christians that are sure to be doomed. As far as the Jews and Christians of other times and places are concerned, they are subjected to the same test in the life of this world. If they submit to whatever they truly believe to be the Truth and live their life in accordance with that Truth, they shall be successful. The case of the Muslims is not any different.

You too have fallen into the trap of believing that Islam belonged to the Arabs, began with them, and was defined by them. Forget about the other prophets, they had no meaning. Forget about people who were not among the Arabs, they were not important to God.

Forget God, for He is no longer in control of Judgement.

[Veiled Princess 1]

No, I'm not. I was raised Christian and have been taught by and lived with Christians of various sects all my life and some do not believe Jesus was a god.

The Trinity and the divinity of Christ was formalized at the first Council of Nicea in 325. The largest and most dominant denominations of Christians adhered to this doctrine before and during Muhammad; for example the Coptics and the Abysinnians. These would be the Christians we are discussing in the context of this topic, not the ones you've lived with.

That is not true. The catholics standardized this with the pagans at this event you speak of... not all christians... modern day christians have just been duped into it.

Furthermore, early christian writings prove that early christians did not believe this either. Read the Gospel of Barnabas and see for yourself, also, the Apoclypse of Peter (I think) denies that Jesus died and predicts Muhammad's coming. Just because they are not in the different bibles today does not mean that noone ever followed them.

They were called Jews. I am aware of the Books that didn't make it into the traditional Bible, but that is like giving equal weight to rejected ahadith. I will let Christians define their dictrine themselves, as we would like to do for Islam.

Barnabas was a follower of Christ and his scroll denies Jesus' divinity and his death. Those same pagans who 'standardized' the bible in 325 are the ones who declared those other christians as heretics for not believing in Jesus as a god.

No they haven't. You want to ignore the three ayat I posted, but you cannot and maintain credibility. Since Islam has existed since Adam, and you believe that Allah has condenmed all non-Muslims to hell, then you cannot say that there will be ANY ahl al kitab who will go to heaven, but Allah clearly has said that is so.

I have told you my understanding of the ayat you posted. You are the one who ignore the ayat I have posted.

You have done a poor job of it. I will not mention children doing a better job.

Just because you lack understanding does not mean I have done a poor job.

You have denied there will be ahl al kitab in heaven, Layla. You have done it in stages, but you have done so. You keep saying that the Quran and Muhammad are the ticket, but since Islam has existed since Adam, they are not the only ticket. All who existed have received the Message and among them will be ahl al kitab who will enter heaven.

I most certainly have not... either you are plain THICK or you're just messing around. I deny that there will be any jews or christians who have or will die after the Quran and Muhammad and rejecting it that will be in heaven but those who were true believers before that will be in heaven on JD as promised. Also, those ppl of the book who accept and follow the Quran and Muhammad will also be there.

It is truly difficult to know when to take you seriously because you begin with one absolutist premise, then, in the face of opposition, tend to veer away from your original position.

I have the same position as my original post.

I have asked you for PROOF that three ayat that plainly say that there will be ahl al kitab in heaven is contradicted, and what you want to convince us of is that the ahl al kitab must become Muslims first. But, that is not what Allah says, and why you haven't answered the question, nor can you seriously deny that you have not proclaimed all ahl al kitab condemned to hell.

I have given you the proof that those people of the book who reject Muhammad and the Quran are disbelievers and that all disbelievers are in hell.

Even as I have pointed out to you more than once that Islam did not begin with the Quran and Muhammad, you continue to insist that Muhammad and the Quran are the cut-off point and that all ahl al kitab who died before the Arabs received the Quran will be eligible for heaven and those after will not unless they become Muslims. But that is not what Allah says.

I never said Islam began with Muhammad or the Quran but once they came to us anyone who denies them are disbelievers and will go to hell.

Christians and Jew received the Message LONG BEFORE there was a Muahhamd. What you are saying is they those people can enter heaven even if they rejected the Message before there was a Muhammad or a Quran.

I am not talking about jews and christians before Muhammad's time as I have stated many times.

Your position makes the Arabs the focal point of Islam, negating all the eras that Islam existed in before. It makes no sense to ignore all of that because what you are saying is that Islam did not exist BEFORE the Quran and Muhammad, but that is not true and it cancels out your argument.

I have mentioned nothing about 'Arabs'. The Quran is not only for Arabs it is for all people and Muhammad was a mercy to all the worlds not just the Arabs or even just the human race. Anyone who rejects him as a prophet and a messenger of Allah will be punished with an eternity in hell as Allah has promised many times in the Quran.

It would do well for you to take some religion clasess, for it is clear that your gaps in knowledge and logic are an impediment to debate for you.

I do study my religion. I may not have direct access to scholars or a university but I attend online classes and read lectures and books by the scholars who understand more than you ever will about Islam.

According to the Qur'an, when a messenger of Allah (Rasu'l as distinct from Nab'i) is sent towards a people, he removes all doubts that lie in people's minds regarding the Truth. He answers all their questions. Truth becomes evidently distinct from falsehood. Those who accept his message, accept it with full knowledge of what is right and what is wrong; and those who reject his message, reject it after gaining full knowledge that it is the Truth they are rejecting. It is because of this particular position of the messengers (Rasu'l) of Allah that it becomes evident that those who are rejecting his call are rejecting the Truth, and those who are accepting his call are submitting to the Truth. The former are, thus, bound to be thrown in the hell fire and the latter are promised the bliss of paradise. Therefore the Jews and Christians who lived during the life of the Prophet and who did not accept his message are doomed. We, even with our limited knowledge know about this fact, because if as the Muslims hold, Mohammad (pbuh) was a true messenger of God, then those Jews and Christians who lived during the life of the Prophet (pbuh) rejected the Truth knowingly. They shall have no excuse for their rejection. It is these Jews and Christians that are sure to be doomed. As far as the Jews and Christians of other times and places are concerned, they are subjected to the same test in the life of this world. If they submit to whatever they truly believe to be the Truth and live their life in accordance with that Truth, they shall be successful. The case of the Muslims is not any different.

You too have fallen into the trap of believing that Islam belonged to the Arabs, began with them, and was defined by them. Forget about the other prophets, they had no meaning. Forget about people who were not among the Arabs, they were not important to God.

Forget God, for He is no longer in control of Judgement.

Nowhere in her post did she say any of that but it's just like you to always put words in other peoples mouths and twist what they are saying to fit your own evil desires.

[noura 0]

**SIGH** Will this ever end?

[Jenn! 918]

Edited August 31, 2006 by jenn3539