What to do next?

[VanessaTony 3,567]

Now, to play the Devil's Advocate a little bit......couldn't she say that to a friend? Or a relative?

She could. But coupled with claiming she didn't have FB when she did, opening a new email account, and that the OP doesn't know the person who the msgs were sent too (and he indicated there were multiples) then something is fishy... plus I don't send I love you msgs to my family. I might write it at the end of another email, but it's a little odd to write ONLY "I love you" in a msg... I only do that to my husband (also when he was my bf and fiance of course).

someone posted that Fb causes relationship issues for them (not the OP, someone else in this thread). If you do or say anything on FB that makes your spouse concerned you should stop doing it. If it's just petty jealousy then you have bigger issues than FB such as your spouse trying to control you. Having multiple accounts is just odd.

[Tahoma 2,292]

Well that's what the OP decided but a few seem to think that you can actually love a scammer without knowing who they really are and that the scammer love is worth fighting for!

Honestly I'd still like Jr to answer my questions about the scenario I posted (an example of course) and also my wife's question of who would wear the wedding dress (ha ha ha LOL)...

We have different point of view on things. It does not mean you are wrong and I am right or you are right and I am wrong. It is just a matter how we handle things.

About the pants: So you think controlling anger = wearing the the skirt?

There you go again, jrmejia. Why are you completely avoiding responding to Bob's scenario? Why are you retreating behind those banal, empty platitudes about right and wrong and handling things? My guess is that you knew Bob had backed you into an intellectual corner, and you wouldn't admit it.

Now you are attempting to raise a straw-man argument about controlling anger. Where did you get this black-and-white idea that, if you are not a gentleman, then you must be angry? Did it ever occur to you that there is a huge gap between the two that you are failing to acknowledge? One word that comes to mind is "civil."

Why do some people keep saying she is a scammer? I still believe that if he is going to send her back, to do with style. Like a gentleman.

Because most of the people reading and responding to this thread have better reading comprehension skills. An example of that is the poster below, Vanessa&Tony, who had no problem comprehending the OP's issue.

How is she not a scammer? She was sending text messages to someone else (not the OP) that she loved them. She not only sent those messages before she left, she also sent them the DAY she left the Philippines to be with her fiance (the OP).

There is nothing else to take from this other than this girl is using this guy. Whether she's simply a cheater, or someone who is using him for immigration benefits we don't know, but she's at least scamming the OP into thinking she is his one-and-only.

Jrmejia, in one of your threads, you disturbingly stated that you wouldn't care if your love for your fiancée was only one-way love. Are you advocating the same thing to the OP? You also said you don't trust your fiancée because she is cold and distant, and you compared her to a car with a broken transmission. Is this what a gentleman would say?

[rlogan 2,036]

Bob, you are missing the point. You are focusing too much on anger and ignoring other things. That is where the discipline of respect comes into play

Manipulation is such a fascinating thing. The literature on this has some remarkable surprises, and one of them is that many times the person that appears to be the main victim of manipulation is also running their own manipulative subroutines. We have the world-record thread (an extension of others before it) going on for our loveable importer of Ukrainian ladies that is an emotional vampire doing some epic work.

We have something interesting here too.

Consider the false dichotomy our friend jrmejia brought into play: that you either force yourself to "love" someone who, by the OP's testimony, loves someone else and has played him for a fool - or else you are acting out in anger.

There was some double-teaming going on with another poster saying if you put this scammer out of your life instead of forcing yourself to "love" them, you were impure, boastful, selfish, and immoral, taking Bible verses out of context.

A manipulative person learns that by being unreasonable, and the most gifted of them make subtle personal attacks disguised as arguments, they can provoke your emotions and get the best of you.

When you accuse someone making very reasonable suggestions of being selfish, boastful, immoral, impure, and being an angry person - you are going to get them pretty darned defensive, reacting in... anger, ideally. Then the person doing the provocation can say "just look at yourself - see how angry you are?".

That happened in this thread, and it is a classic manipulative tactic.

They can appear, after numerous personal insults, to be the reasonable one by saying oh golly, we just disagree on this so now that I have accused you of being such a dirt-bag, let's just drop it, OK?

That happened too.

They can utilize a number of logical fallacies and illegitimate debate tactics like strawmen, false dichotomies, selective attention, denial etc. to really get under your skin.

For those aware of the history for our friend jermejia we wonder how a person can be so "blind" to the manipulation others see so clearly. We also wonder how such bizarre advice can be given.

Well, it turns out it isn't a matter of seeing it at all for some people. They grew up with it. It is a familiar thing to them, and they actually find comfort in it. I know this because it was true in my own life. I distinctly remember smiling when someone did something to me that a normal person would find offensive, and thinking fondly about one of my parents. I had to train myself to learn it was bad for my life.

We put our own "spin" on things, and in this case our friend jrmejia has this idea of the gentleman being a martyr. By his testimony, he will tolerate a relationship with one-way "love". People thought that absolutely crazy, but we see now in this paralell thread what his thinking is: if you martyr yourself, you are being the "gentleman".

If instead you have the self-respect to stand up for yourself and demand equality and reciprocity of love - well then you are being an angry person. We have the mis-application of the word "respect" being used. We must martyr ourselves to someone who does not love us, and who plays us for a fool, to show how full of "respect" we are.

You are not going to be able to argue against this spin on things. This is something very deeply rooted in someone's psyche, developed through life experience and generally stemming from childhood. It is common knowledge, but actually even more extensive than realized that cycles of abuse continue down through generations as children learn from parents and repeat the behaviors they were exposed to themselves. The chain can be broken of course, but don't be surprised when you see an astonishing intransigence to logical argument. We are talking about very deeply rooted beliefs on how people see themselves, and disturbing that view can be traumatic.

I understand it now in this case: the gentleman martyr. That's what it's all about here. The OP is doing the very sensible thing, but it contrasts sharply with how our other friend is managing his visajourney.

In this world view, the greater your martyrdom, the more a gentleman you are shown to be.

It isn't the brilliant kamikaze lunacy of proposing re-marriage after just divorcing the stripper who bedded everyone but you - no. But it is yet another example where despite being the one who appears to be the victim of manipulation, the victim also has some tools up their sleeve. They aren't as blind to the manipulation as we might think - instead they've involved themselves in relationships that have familiarity to them even if they are destructive to their lives.

[TBoneTX 45,267]

Manipulation is such a fascinating thing. [...]

+1,000 to this... and to Vanessa's posts, too.

[jrmejia 31]

Manipulation is such a fascinating thing. The literature on this has some remarkable surprises, and one of them is that many times the person that appears to be the main victim of manipulation is also running their own manipulative subroutines. We have the world-record thread (an extension of others before it) going on for our loveable importer of Ukrainian ladies that is an emotional vampire doing some epic work.

We have something interesting here too.

Consider the false dichotomy our friend jrmejia brought into play: that you either force yourself to "love" someone who, by the OP's testimony, loves someone else and has played him for a fool - or else you are acting out in anger.

There was some double-teaming going on with another poster saying if you put this scammer out of your life instead of forcing yourself to "love" them, you were impure, boastful, selfish, and immoral, taking Bible verses out of context.

A manipulative person learns that by being unreasonable, and the most gifted of them make subtle personal attacks disguised as arguments, they can provoke your emotions and get the best of you.

When you accuse someone making very reasonable suggestions of being selfish, boastful, immoral, impure, and being an angry person - you are going to get them pretty darned defensive, reacting in... anger, ideally. Then the person doing the provocation can say "just look at yourself - see how angry you are?".

That happened in this thread, and it is a classic manipulative tactic.

They can appear, after numerous personal insults, to be the reasonable one by saying oh golly, we just disagree on this so now that I have accused you of being such a dirt-bag, let's just drop it, OK?

That happened too.

They can utilize a number of logical fallacies and illegitimate debate tactics like strawmen, false dichotomies, selective attention, denial etc. to really get under your skin.

For those aware of the history for our friend jermejia we wonder how a person can be so "blind" to the manipulation others see so clearly. We also wonder how such bizarre advice can be given.

Well, it turns out it isn't a matter of seeing it at all for some people. They grew up with it. It is a familiar thing to them, and they actually find comfort in it. I know this because it was true in my own life. I distinctly remember smiling when someone did something to me that a normal person would find offensive, and thinking fondly about one of my parents. I had to train myself to learn it was bad for my life.

We put our own "spin" on things, and in this case our friend jrmejia has this idea of the gentleman being a martyr. By his testimony, he will tolerate a relationship with one-way "love". People thought that absolutely crazy, but we see now in this paralell thread what his thinking is: if you martyr yourself, you are being the "gentleman".

If instead you have the self-respect to stand up for yourself and demand equality and reciprocity of love - well then you are being an angry person. We have the mis-application of the word "respect" being used. We must martyr ourselves to someone who does not love us, and who plays us for a fool, to show how full of "respect" we are.

You are not going to be able to argue against this spin on things. This is something very deeply rooted in someone's psyche, developed through life experience and generally stemming from childhood. It is common knowledge, but actually even more extensive than realized that cycles of abuse continue down through generations as children learn from parents and repeat the behaviors they were exposed to themselves. The chain can be broken of course, but don't be surprised when you see an astonishing intransigence to logical argument. We are talking about very deeply rooted beliefs on how people see themselves, and disturbing that view can be traumatic.

I understand it now in this case: the gentleman martyr. That's what it's all about here. The OP is doing the very sensible thing, but it contrasts sharply with how our other friend is managing his visajourney.

In this world view, the greater your martyrdom, the more a gentleman you are shown to be.

It isn't the brilliant kamikaze lunacy of proposing re-marriage after just divorcing the stripper who bedded everyone but you - no. But it is yet another example where despite being the one who appears to be the victim of manipulation, the victim also has some tools up their sleeve. They aren't as blind to the manipulation as we might think - instead they've involved themselves in relationships that have familiarity to them even if they are destructive to their lives.

I read your comment very careful and I really do not argue with your point of view. I understand where you coming from. Having said that, I can read between your lines that you are not interested in winning the Nobel Peace Prize . That is a story for another day.

Let's put some happy face

[jrmejia 31]

Jrmejia, in one of your threads, you disturbingly stated that you wouldn't care if your love for your fiancée was only one-way love. Are you advocating the same thing to the OP? You also said you don't trust your fiancée because she is cold and distant, and you compared her to a car with a broken transmission. Is this what a gentleman would say?

I apologize for that behavior. But after analyzing things careful between my fiancee and me, I realized that some of the arguments were merely my fault.

[jrmejia 31]

Now, to play the Devil's Advocate a little bit......couldn't she say that to a friend? Or a relative?

Thanks for such a wonderful open mind

[Tahoma 2,292]

I read your comment very careful and I really do not argue with your point of view. I understand where you coming from. Having said that, I can read between your lines that you are not interested in winning the Nobel Peace Prize . That is a story for another day.

The story for today is that you completely avoided responding to the substance of rlogan's post. If you understand where he is coming from, why don't you respond to it? I would be interested in hearing your two cents worth.

Jrmejia, in one of your threads, you disturbingly stated that you wouldn't care if your love for your fiancée was only one-way love. Are you advocating the same thing to the OP? You also said you don't trust your fiancée because she is cold and distant, and you compared her to a car with a broken transmission. Is this what a gentleman would say?

I apologize for that behavior. But after analyzing things careful between my fiancee and me, I realized that some of the arguments were merely my fault.

Thank you for confirming that you trash-talk your own fiancée while you hypocritically advocate that others behave in a gentlemanly and respectful manner toward those who have scammed them.

However, your apology is not accepted because it's a faux-pology. If you would care to learn why your apology is not an apology, you should click here.

Thanks for such a wonderful open mind

Open mind = willfully ignoring overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

I read your comment very careful and I really do not argue with your point of view. I understand where you coming from. Having said that, I can read between your lines that you are not interested in winning the Nobel Peace Prize . That is a story for another day.

Let's put some happy face

Come on jr, why can't you actually respond to rLogan's post (which has you pegged) or the scenario I asked you about (my wife is still wondering who would wear the dress)?

[raffy 7]

I advice you to read the story linked below, it's very very similar to yours, I hope you can see some of the "common red flags" and that you learn from this guy's post... good luck!!

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/topic/278501-divorce-after-1-month-in-uslong-sad-story/

Edited December 7, 2010 by raffy

[Canadiandggal 49]

I understand english very well, thank you.

I may be a martyr for love, but at least I am happy. And no my partner isn't cheating on me, I just felt bad for those guys who cheat on their wives coz I have talked to bunches of married couple and usually guys cheat 99%... too bad most of the marriages will be broken if each persons thinking is like that...tsktsktsk

I have to say that women cheat just as much, sometimes ladies are a little more slick at it But IT is not 99 percent of the time...thats bullcrap.

[Canadiandggal 49]

I have to say that women cheat just as much, sometimes ladies are a little more slick at it But IT is not 99 percent of the time...thats bullcrap.

To the Op, How you decide to break with her and maybe bring her somewhere is your decision. some people here have gave some great ideas others have said weird things. She is obviously a scammer..

[jrmejia 31]

I advice you to read the story linked below, it's very very similar to yours, I hope you can see some of the "common red flags" and that you learn from this guy's post... good luck!!

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/topic/278501-divorce-after-1-month-in-uslong-sad-story/

I read that story ....A very sad story to read. I wonder if things would be different if he did not have those pictures of those girls on his hard-drive?

[Tahoma 2,292]

I read that story ....A very sad story to read. I wonder if things would be different if he did not have those pictures of those girls on his hard-drive?

WAKE UP!!! WAKE UP!!!

Apparently you missed the part where she's living with her boyfriend and she all-but-admitted she scammed Johnny!!!

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

I read that story ....A very sad story to read. I wonder if things would be different if he did not have those pictures of those girls on his hard-drive?

And again you avoid addressing rlogan's post and my question!

Seriously, you believe that the man is always to blame. I guess in the other story you were only looking for excuses to blame him for the end?