4th Amendment Wear has a message to the TSA

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

Don't have to, 'cause there already is. It is called profiling.

Surely you're joking right?

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Surely you're joking right?

There's nothing wrong with profiling when done the right way.

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

There's nothing wrong with profiling when done the right way.

There's nothing wrong with full body scanners and pat-downs WHEN DONE THE RIGHT WAY....

I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with either, just that it's all a matter of perspective. It seems like middle/upper class white folks (of which I am one) seem to object less to profiling (maybe because we seldom "fit the profile") and more to measures that affect EVERYONE in the lines!

[marlea 84]

Surely you're joking right?

Behavioral profiling is very different from racial profiling. Behavioral profiling is what is done in Israel and it is very effective. You profile people depending on the way they behave. Just like the check in agent who was working the day that the 9/11 hijackers checked in and he was uncertain about them, had a bad feeling about them, that is behavioral profiling. Sadly, many Americans don't listen to that gut feeling for fear of being "not nice". If the TSA agents were trained in this manner, instead of patting down people, the security measures would be much more effective.

You don't have to be patted down, that's a choice you make.

Not true, there are many people who aren't able to go through the imaging machines and are forced to be patted down: pregnant women, those with medical devices, those who can't stand. And if something is picked up on the scanner, a pat down is forced onto the person. There have been women who have been forced to go through pat downs because their sanitary napkin showed up on the scanner. Now menstruating women will be forced into pat down. That technically is sexist.

So, we shouldn't profile anyone, but we should force women wearing sanitary pads to be sexually molested, even if they already went through the scanner? That doesn't seem right.

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

Behavioral profiling is very different from racial profiling. Behavioral profiling is what is done in Israel and it is very effective. You profile people depending on the way they behave. Just like the check in agent who was working the day that the 9/11 hijackers checked in and he was uncertain about them, had a bad feeling about them, that is behavioral profiling. Sadly, many Americans don't listen to that gut feeling for fear of being "not nice". If the TSA agents were trained in this manner, instead of patting down people, the security measures would be much more effective.

The problem here is that "Probable Cause" to treat an individual differently from everyone else in the line requires a bit more back-up than "I had a feeling". If the Officer/Agent can't solidly quantify it then it won't hold-up on further review.

So, we shouldn't profile anyone, but we should force women wearing sanitary pads to be sexually molested, even if they already went through the scanner? That doesn't seem right.

Now just where did I ever say that?

In fact where did I specifically say that I support either the full body scanners or pat-downs?

In truth I do think that there's a fine line between liberty & security, we need to work harder to find the proper balance.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Bob 4 Anna

[Eric-Pris 1,606]

It seems like middle/upper class white folks (of which I am one) seem to object less to profiling (maybe because we seldom "fit the profile") and more to measures that affect EVERYONE in the lines!

Nobody said profiling should be done solely based on race or skin color, and no other factors. Yes, race would have to be part of it, lets get real--who is trying to blow up planes? Muslim men from the Middle East. If "middle/upper class white folks" were trying to blow up planes, then that's the group that should be scrutinized more closely, but we know who it is at the present time. But race is only a part. If a white guy is traveling from the Middle East on a one-way ticket he paid cash for, he should be questioned for 2 minutes to determine his risk level as well. But first and foremost, this would require better training (and intelligence) at the point of contact, and the TSA are a bunch of incompetent idiots. They are basically unemployable rejects that get scooped up by TSA.

[Eric-Pris 1,606]

Not true, there are many people who aren't able to go through the imaging machines and are forced to be patted down: pregnant women, those with medical devices, those who can't stand. And if something is picked up on the scanner, a pat down is forced onto the person. There have been women who have been forced to go through pat downs because their sanitary napkin showed up on the scanner. Now menstruating women will be forced into pat down. That technically is sexist.

What do you propose they do with these passengers? Just let them pass through uninspected?

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

Nobody said profiling should be done solely based on race or skin color, and no other factors.

I didn't say that but whenever profiling is used or even discussed that's where the focus tends to go and it gets criticized as being racist. Unfortunately if you eliminate the racial component then you may be increasing the amount of "further in depth review" os subjects to a level that the US air traveler will begin to complain again.

But first and foremost, this would require better training (and intelligence) at the point of contact, and the TSA are a bunch of incompetent idiots. They are basically unemployable rejects that get scooped up by TSA.

Guess I know where I'm applying when I get tired of my current job!!!

[marlea 84]

The problem here is that "Probable Cause" to treat an individual differently from everyone else in the line requires a bit more back-up than "I had a feeling". If the Officer/Agent can't solidly quantify it then it won't hold-up on further review.

Behavioral profiling is a well-documented technique, and with proper training, can be held up on further review. There are people in many police/law enforcement/intelligence jobs whose only purpose is to profile criminals by their behavior. The "I had a feeling" is the untrained gut feeling. I'm not saying that we should go with that only, but to train agents to use their instincts to recognize behaviors.

[marlea 84]

What do you propose they do with these passengers? Just let them pass through uninspected?

No, but there are other ways to inspect people. Why do we have bomb/drug sniffing dogs coming into this country, but don't use them to travel within the country? There are many dog breads that are do not shed (so as to stop the allergy argument) that could do the job just as easily and much more quickly/efficiently than pat downs.

[SMR 368]

The problem here is that "Probable Cause" to treat an individual differently from everyone else in the line requires a bit more back-up than "I had a feeling". If the Officer/Agent can't solidly quantify it then it won't hold-up on further review.

What further review? It's not as if an agent is going to arrest someone based on a feeling. But they can flag someone for more screening or scanning based on a feeling. If the further screening/scanning don't turn up anything, that's the end of the story. There is no need for a further review because no one was stopped. If it did turn up something, that which was found is what will stand up to further review.

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

What further review? It's not as if an agent is going to arrest someone based on a feeling. But they can flag someone for more screening or scanning based on a feeling. If the further screening/scanning don't turn up anything, that's the end of the story. There is no need for a further review because no one was stopped. If it did turn up something, that which was found is what will stand up to further review.

Evidence is thrown out of court everyday because there wasn't sufficient probable cause for the search. No that which was found can't stand on it's own if it is the result of further inspection/search based on nothing that can justify the further search.

Maybe TSA should be full fledged Law Enforcement Officers/Agents with better training and all of the legal requirements of our cops. Of course that leads to higher costs which is handed down to the travelers.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

There's nothing wrong with full body scanners and pat-downs WHEN DONE THE RIGHT WAY....

I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with either, just that it's all a matter of perspective. It seems like middle/upper class white folks (of which I am one) seem to object less to profiling (maybe because we seldom "fit the profile") and more to measures that affect EVERYONE in the lines!

Profiling is not all about 'race.' There's a lot more that goes into it, especially when you really look at behavioral profiling. The underwear bomber would have never gotten on that plane like he did (and he didn't in the US and we suffer... ignorant idiots who support the scanners here) if he were profiled like he should have been...

Of course it does beg the question of why we are wasting our time on certain people when it's a specific group causing all of the problems... Dare to say that out loud and you're a 'bigot.'

I mean screw it though. Political correctness is worth it and ignorance is bliss.

[TBoneTX 45,267]

Maybe TSA should be full fledged Law Enforcement Officers/Agents with better training and all of the legal requirements of our cops. Of course that leads to higher costs which is handed down to the travelers.

The TSA then becomes a national police force, which is exactly what OTM ("0bama the Messiah" or "Other Than 'Merican") wants.

In Texas, CBP agents do NOT have peace-officer authority. If they did, heaven couldn't help us at all. I shudder to think what life would descend to if they did.

The Fourth Amendment has been on life support for years now. A couple of Supreme Court decisions more, and it becomes merely an inkblot.

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

The TSA then becomes a national police force, which is exactly what OTM ("0bama the Messiah" or "Other Than 'Merican") wants.

What are the FBI & Federal Marshals?