Second class Citizens

[Captain Oates 911]

Unlike the US, Britain is not a "country of immigrants" and more often than not,

British citizens do not have strong cultural ties to other nations and/or consider

them an important part of their heritage.

Sure there are a lot of immigrants in the UK, but their eligibility for the highest

office has not become an issue only because there is a glass ceiling that prevents

them from even getting close to running for PM.

What glass ceiling ? John Major's dad was a trapeze artist

Aneurin Bevan who created the National Health Service left school at 13 to become a coal miner

Harold Wison was a grammar school boy from Yorkshire

etc etc

and the UK has had a Bachelor PM

Bachelor

Woman

Jewish

Gay

Mr O said his story was only possible in the US. Perhaps that isn't totally accurate.

Heck even our first King after the Norman Conquest was formerly known as William the #######, Duke of Normandy - and they didn't call him that because he was a bad boy...(which he was)

Anyway, if the American people are truly free then they should be free to have anyone they want as their leader.

Same with the Brits as far as the Monarchy is concerned. I know it's only ceremonial as gets lots of tourists, but it's a bad example to the world to have unelected people - or in the case of the US, to have an artificially restricted (rigged) candidate list.

[Ban Hammer 13,636]

hardly an accurate topic title, alan.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

hardly an accurate topic title, alan.

Indeed. Representation is not the same as representing.

[mawilson 2,133]

What glass ceiling?

Glass ceiling for people born with dark skin. Don't tell me it doesn't exist in the UK because it does.

[mawilson 2,133]

There are 27 black and Asian MPs, compared to 14 in the last parliament. They make up 4.2% of MPs in the Commons.

There are 142 women or 22% of MPs. Women make up more than half the UK population.

[scandal 951]

hardly an accurate topic title, alan.

This is VJ. Where 'winning' the debate means striving for inaccuracy.

[Danno 1,228]

There are 27 black and Asian MPs, compared to 14 in the last parliament. They make up 4.2% of MPs in the Commons.

There are 142 women or 22% of MPs. Women make up more than half the UK population.

Are you assuming that women A. Seek office as often as men and B. are equally qualified.. not to hold the office but to attract the voted needed to win a seat?

[Captain Oates 911]

This is VJ. Where 'winning' the debate means striving for inaccuracy.

Nobody has ever won a debate when it comes to politics or religion

Nobody has ever achieved a convert

People either take themselves into a position or they stay where they are

Hypothetical - brought to the US at 4 months old from Vancouver Canada. Brought up by two US Citizens near Seattle 100 miles from where he was born and went through the US school/university system. Joined the Army and got to General and actually won a war. Became a Governor of Washington State and then a Senator. Acknowledged by everyone to be the best candidate in the country but barred from standing as President as he breathed his first breath outside the country.

People who are xenophobic and Nativist and simply don't like foreigners or new immigrants will say we have enough natural born to pick from. That argument could be used to exclude on race or gender or age etc etc.

In fact There is an age requirement . Why ? if the country wants a 33 year old and 75% would vote for him, why should they be denied ? Weeping John Boehner (ask a German how it's pronounced but it isn't bainer) is eligible, but a very mature 33 year old isn't.

All these arbitrary requirements need to be swept away and the only test should be whether the majority of the US population are prepared to vote for a certain person.

People who Naturalize look forward to becoming a citizen and think it is a leg up from Alien and they will feel equal at last. I reckon those who just happened to take their first breath here, will try to make sure that the newcomers stay different and 'lesser' forever.

All mammals try and dominate those they can so it's a human instinct and quite natural. Perhaps it's up to the newcomers to refuse the domination and push back and keep on asserting their equality.

[Brother Hesekiel 2,236]

Alan,

Before running for Federal office, Arnold would have to renounce his Austrian citizenship; not sure he would be willing to do that for a low-paying 4-year gig in cold Washington. That would be quite a sacrifice, despite the fact that the Austrian Government considers taking it away from him anyway because he signed death penalty orders as the Governator, something that Austrian law prohibits. You were talking about conflict of interest and clashing loyalties? I'd say!

[Captain Oates 911]

Alan,

Before running for Federal office, Arnold would have to renounce his Austrian citizenship; not sure he would be willing to do that for a low-paying 4-year gig in cold Washington. That would be quite a sacrifice, despite the fact that the Austrian Government considers taking it away from him anyway because he signed death penalty orders as the Governator, something that Austrian law prohibits. You were talking about conflict of interest and clashing loyalties? I'd say!

Trying to figure out what Austrian law has provided for removal of citizenship would be pretty complex.

I reckon a US Citizen could work as a death squad contractor in any country and kill thousands of civilians and still not lose his US Citizenship because it isn't treason or immigration fraud.

I don't know of any country that removes citizenship for what their citizens do while they are abroad unless it's actual treason against the home country.

I guess Austria (Or Southern Germany as my pal in Berlin calls it) could be different.

Kissinger and Madeleine Albright were not seen as security risks even though they were born abroad.

Kissinger was NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER and later SECRETARY OF STATE

Albright was SECRETARY OF STATE

They were still not allowed to run for President. That does not make sense

[luckytxn 2,265]

I wouldn't want someone that was born abroad to even be considered to be our president. Now they may be as American as anyone else in thought and dress but they also could have a soft spot for their place of birth that could cloud their judgement toward their birth place. Also some people could become a hard azz to try to show they are not biased toward their birth place to over compensate and that would not be good either. Arnold is a good example. He is very popular and would have received a lot of votes and even though I think he would have lost he could very well have won. Does anyone know 100% that he would have never shown favoritism toward his birth place?

Also what if a Newfie somehow became very popular and was actually elected. Does anyone think that having a Newfie as a President is a good idea?

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Hawai'i is America. Let's not play the Fox News game and turn it into something foreign and/or exotic.

It's about American as Vermont is Canadien.

Edited November 18, 2010 by ##########

[Captain Oates 911]

I wouldn't want someone that was born abroad to even be considered to be our president. Now they may be as American as anyone else in thought and dress but they also could have a soft spot for their place of birth that could cloud their judgement toward their birth place. Also some people could become a hard azz to try to show they are not biased toward their birth place to over compensate and that would not be good either. Arnold is a good example. He is very popular and would have received a lot of votes and even though I think he would have lost he could very well have won. Does anyone know 100% that he would have never shown favoritism toward his birth place?

Also what if a Newfie somehow became very popular and was actually elected. Does anyone think that having a Newfie as a President is a good idea?

Yes, me.

Would Kissinger have been a better President than Major Hasan ? Especially after he had been both National Security Adviser and Secretary of State ? What is a newfie ? Is it a derogatory name for a new citizen ?

I get a sinking feeling about what I am in for 2 weeks today when I Naturalize

I am starting to realise what 'Real' Americans will think of me and how I will always be regarded.

So much for the rhetoric and congratulations to me for seeing through it...

[^_^ 5,021]

newfie is someone from newfoundland.

google up newfie jokes, they are the butt of many stereotypes. kind of the polacks of north america.

Edited November 18, 2010 by \

[Captain Oates 911]

I wouldn't want someone that was born abroad to even be considered to be our president. Now they may be as American as anyone else in thought and dress but they also could have a soft spot for their place of birth that could cloud their judgement toward their birth place. Also some people could become a hard azz to try to show they are not biased toward their birth place to over compensate and that would not be good either. Arnold is a good example. He is very popular and would have received a lot of votes and even though I think he would have lost he could very well have won. Does anyone know 100% that he would have never shown favoritism toward his birth place?

Also what if a Newfie somehow became very popular and was actually elected. Does anyone think that having a Newfie as a President is a good idea?

Look at it the other way round where we are not the aggressor and not making the decisions. It might help the Chinese not to nuke us if we had a President who was born in China and came here at age 12 months. Rather than continuing to discriminate against worthy and loyal people on grounds of ethnic origins, we could be an example.

Any American could be Prime Minister of Britain and so could a Russian (born) or an Iranian (born).

Only a suspicion and a distrust of foreigners is behind this and that is small minded and does not fit with the modern world. I say vote on merit alone and let the people be the judge - not the law framers.

Americans should not be scared of the result of the American population expressing their preferences freely.

If Sarah was standing, I could understand why the candidate list should be restricted by law using arbitrary disqualifiers.

For the vjers who have a foreign spouse, pay them the compliment of saying that when they become citizens, they are equal to any American without any reservations.