Limbaugh: "Pre-existing condition coverage is not insurance. It's welfare."

[Dakine10 5,452]

The left doesn't understand how a business works.

Roughly half of the US population thinks health care should be a right rather than a privlege. For those people, and I admit I am one, It's not so much about not understanding how business works as it is wondering why health care is being treated as a business in the first place.

I would agree with you that insurance has nothing to do with health care. I just wonder who the heck thought it was a good idea to put them together in the first place.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Dakine10

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

America can be a fecked up place sometimes. Many Americans love to brag about freedom and all kinds of idealistic garbage but will happily let their own countrymen suffer and die so that selfish individuals can opt out of society when it suits them. And many of these people trap off about the virtues of a Christian country yet would happily leave their own countrymen to suffer at the roadside because they didn't get bandit insurance

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Roughly half of the US population thinks health care should be a right rather than a privlege. For those people, and I admit I am one, It's not so much about not understanding how business works as it is wondering why health care is being treated as a business in the first place.

It's simple. Health care IS a business. It's NOT a right.

Let me put it into perspective on what 'rights' are. A right is something that you can do/accomplish on your own/something your entitled to do on your own without expectations of others except that they cannot try and stop you from that right.

With that being said, and this is where people get mixed up with health care. The moment you demand something from someone else that requires an actual action from them, is the moment it stops being your 'right.' At that point, if you require it and demand an action from them and there's consequences for them not doing said action, then that's slavery.

[SMR 368]

So a chronic illness like lupus is similar to a dent in the car that occurred prior to coverage start?

You're trying to put words into people's mouths but no one said anything of the sort.

Limbaugh's point, which seems to have eluded you but which is nonetheless a good point, is that Obamacare is confusing the concept of what insurance is. Insurance is something that you buy in order to reduce the effect of possible future mishaps. Those mishaps could be small, like dents in your car or cracks in your windshield, or large, like destruction of entire homes, chronic illness, or death. Insurance works because people agree to pay a small sum of money without knowing whether or not they will have a mishap. If the mishap occurs, the insurance company compensates them. If the mishap doesn't occur, the insurance company keeps the money. The upfront cost of the insurance is related to the amount of money required to compensate the mishap times the estimated probability of the mishap plus administrative costs (and profits, if this is a for-profit insurance company).

If you can buy insurance after the mishap, you have no financial reason to buy insurance before the mishap. This would defeat the purpose of insurance. If the probability of the mishap is 100%, the upfront cost is equal to the amount of money required to compensate the mishap times 100% (the probability of the mishap) plus the administrative cost, which is larger than the eventual pay-out. If the insurance company is forced to charge less, they will quickly go bankrupt. And at those prices and payouts, there is no reason for the customer to buy the insurance.

Now, under Obamacare, the idea that makes things work is that you don't let people not buy "insurance" and you force everyone to pay the same amount. This differs from the typically definition of insurance on several key issues. First, the price is not related to the probability of the mishap (not everyone is actually equally likely to get sick but everyone is paying the same amount). Second, the government is using taxing power to force people to pay for this "insurance." Thus, Limbaugh is correct in stating that Obamacare "insurance" does not fit the classic definition of insurance.

Now, what is welfare? Welfare is when the government forcibly collects taxes from citizens and then redistributes these taxes in the form of services to those that the government deems to have a need (Of course, there are types of welfare not connected to the government, but the discussion at hand is about the government). That is exactly what Obamacare is doing. Everyone is forced to pay a tax although that tax is called an "insurance premium." Then the government determines who needs help based on medical need and redistributes those taxes in the form of medical service. (You can putter a little about the fact that doctors are determining who gets the services and not the government but that is a mute point because that will likely soon change and because even if it doesn't the doctors are simply being delegated the authority to use the collected tax dollars. Someone has to make the decision and who that someone is doesn't materially change the situation.)

[SMR 368]

Roughly half of the US population thinks health care should be a right rather than a privlege. For those people, and I admit I am one, It's not so much about not understanding how business works as it is wondering why health care is being treated as a business in the first place.

I would agree with you that insurance has nothing to do with health care. I just wonder who the heck thought it was a good idea to put them together in the first place.

Healthcare is a right. Just like the right to bear arms, the right to free press, and the right to practice your religion for example. The right to bear arms doesn't mean that anyone has to buy you a gun. The freedom of the press doesn't mean that anyone is required to print whatever someone writes. The right to practice your religion does not require that anyone build you a church.

You have a right to get healthcare for yourself and no one is stopping you. If you wanted the government to force other people to give you healthcare, then we are no longer talking about rights. Rights are not something that someone gives you. They are something that no one is allowed to take away.

[mawilson 2,133]

So a chronic illness like lupus is similar to a dent in the car that occurred prior to coverage start?

It is. The problem is the insurance model itself which is a dismal failure as a system of financing

healthcare services.

Insurance models work well when the risk is very low per individual, but the payout is very high

in the case of loss. Healthcare looks nothing like that because everyone gets sick and everyone

dies (roughly half of lifetime healthcare expenditures are in the last six months of life.)

Screening for pre-existing conditions is just a lame attempt on the part of insurance companies to make

healthcare look more like other forms of insurance.

Edited November 9, 2010 by mawilson

[mawilson 2,133]

Insurance is a risk business. A BUSINESS. It's there to MAKE MONEY. It's not there to keep you healthy.

And that is the problem.

[Jenn! 918]

There are many different kinds of insurance. If you try to fit health insurance into the same framework as your personal auto insurance, of course it's not going to make sense.

Retro insurance would be a better fit for examining pe-existing condition coverage.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

And that is the problem.

The problem is not insurance. The problem is the overall cost of health care.

Insurance does its job. People just expect much more from insurance than that it's supposed to be.

[mawilson 2,133]

The problem is not insurance. The problem is the overall cost of health care.

Insurance *is* the problem.

Imagine if we needed "food insurance" in order to buy food. You'd go to the grocery

store and the first thing you'd notice is that there were no prices on anything.

Of course not, it's covered by insurance! So you just fill your cart with whatever

and as much as you want - as long as it's covered by your plan. Some plans even cover

caviar and lobster, and the cost is spread around to all of us in the form of higher

premiums. Other plans have high deductibles, so you end up paying $50 for one apple

until you reach your annual limit of $2,000, at which point you can have as many apples

as you want -- all covered!

See the problem?

[Danno 1,228]

If the fat man wasn't rich as croesus he'd be more in touch with the needs and worries if ordinary Americans

How does it escape you that plenty of people even right here agree with Rush about what insurance is... and isn't.

It's silly to discount peoples opinion just because a fat rich guy agrees with them.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Insurance *is* the problem.

Imagine if we needed "food insurance" in order to buy food. You'd go to the grocery

store and the first thing you'd notice is that there were no prices on anything.

Of course not, it's covered by insurance! So you just fill your cart with whatever

and as much as you want - as long as it's covered by your plan. Some plans even cover

caviar and lobster, and the cost is spread around to all of us in the form of higher

premiums. Other plans have high deductibles, so you end up paying $50 for one apple

until you reach your annual limit of $2,000, at which point you can have as many apples

as you want -- all covered!

See the problem?

You've been going to some jacked up doctors/hospitals if you cannot get prices up front....

That's a problem of the doctors/hospitals, not insurance. What insurance pays doctors/hospitals is a pre-determined/negotiated rate.

Again, insurance is not the problem as it has nothing to do with actual health care/providers.

The only 'insurance' that I know hurts doctors is medicare/medicaid as they don't negotiate rates and they pay whatevery they essentially 'feel' like.

[rika60607 215]

Oh yes, insurance IS the problem. And so is the cost of medical care.

They are inter-dependent, of course.

If I go and see my family doctor, I will pay a $20 deductible. Great, I can afford that no problem. The doctor charges more like $120. I would not go see a doctor for that price, unless something was seriously wrong with me. Since I have to pay the premiums anyway, I feel that I should use the service whenever it is convenient. In effect, having insurance is driving me to use the doctor's services. Again, if I had no insurance, I'd shop around for the best price quality ratio. With insurance, I will try to get the best doctor that my insurance will cover, no matter his prices.

Medical insurance allows Drs to charge more and brings them more clients than they would otherwise have.

On the other hand, the cost of medical services is rising fast. Why? With 3000-4000 students per place in medical school, you'd think there would be plenty of new medical schools starting, yes? They would (medical school is a profitable business), but there is a doctor driven lobby that prevents this from happening. Of course Drs are only protecting their incomes and employ-ability. They got those huge loans to repay, so it is understandable.

For the public though, the current concept is a disaster.

The problem is not insurance. The problem is the overall cost of health care.

Insurance does its job. People just expect much more from insurance than that it's supposed to be.

Edited November 9, 2010 by rika60607

[^_^ 5,021]

Retro insurance would be a better fit for examining pe-existing condition coverage.

Explain?

[Danno 1,228]

Insurance *is* the problem.

Imagine if we needed "food insurance" in order to buy food. You'd go to the grocery

store and the first thing you'd notice is that there were no prices on anything.

Of course not, it's covered by insurance! So you just fill your cart with whatever

and as much as you want - as long as it's covered by your plan. Some plans even cover

caviar and lobster, and the cost is spread around to all of us in the form of higher

premiums. Other plans have high deductibles, so you end up paying $50 for one apple

until you reach your annual limit of $2,000, at which point you can have as many apples

as you want -- all covered!

See the problem?

That is very good!