Calvinism and why the non religious are evil

[Captain Oates 911]

I have known for a while that describing oneself as an atheist is not acceptable in the US.

Some European countries have a huge majority of atheists and it is normal to be an atheist in the UK.

I have been looking at Calvinism and found out that most US religion is based on it. This creed works on the basis that we are call born full of sin and evil and then we get saved.

It follows that an atheist cannot be good or moral person and that is what the US attitude to atheists is based on

I have been here three years and visited for 30 and I have only just discovered the basis for the American antagonism towards atheists

Thomas Jefferson was anti Calvinist and anti Christian but without being anti-religious.

I have read previously that an American can accept anyone of any religion but not a person of none. Jefferson was instrumental in writing the constitution and in theory one can have no religion and be equal. In practice, Americans ignore their first amendment in this regard and are antagonistic to people of no religion

I am going to think about this realisation of the history and the source of these attitudes and figure out how to get the message over that I am not religious but I am as 'good' and 'moral' to other people as 99% of the devout priests and politicians and the extremely religious

I will describe myself as 'Jeffersonian' until I think of a more accurate description. It throws the average American into confusion to think that the man who wrote the Declaration of Independence and a lot of the Constitution, was scathing about the Christian Church and cut big chunks of the bible out with scissors in order to get rid of the miracles and superstition.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

You are right that many Protestants today are influenced by Calvanism, and there are some pretty funky beliefs that linger.

For us Catholics, we believe in the concept of Original Sin, but that doesn't mean we are born 'evil', but rather we are not perfect. We have an innate tendency towards doing bad things, but I'd say we also have innate tendencies towards doing good things too.

Edited October 30, 2010 by El Buscador

[웃 910]

PRAISE ALLAH, THE MOST HIGH

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MI7NEwIaJE&feature=related

[Captain Oates 911]

You are right that many Protestants today are influenced by Calvanism, and there are some pretty funky beliefs that linger.

For us Catholics, we believe in the concept of Original Sin, but that doesn't mean we are born 'evil', but rather we are not perfect. We have innate tendency towards doing bad things, but I'd say we also have innate tendencies towards doing good things too.

Is it possible for an atheist to be a 'better' person than a Catholic ? Actually, the antics of the paedophile priests answers this question as far as some individual Catholics are concerned and so I suppose the answer is that we can't say that Catholics are 'better' people than atheists - we have to take them one at a time.

Strangely, the atheists I have met have been more moral than the religious people. That is because the atheits actually thought through what they believed and cared about it and applied it to their lives rather than simply being born into a religion and told what to believe by their parents. What percentage of Catholics in the US were not born of Catholic parents ? Not many I bet - so it was handed to them rather than being the fruit of their own personal journey

If this is true then religious people in the U.S. need to be trained not to look down on people or pre-judge them because of their beliefs. Basically, they should be trained to ingest the first amendment Jefferson's subsequent explanation of the thinking behind it.

There are States which ban non religious people from public office. The State Constitutions need to be amended in this respect so that they conform to the 1st amendment. I will be a Citizen soon but I will be banned from holding State Office in some States

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Is it possible for an atheist to be a 'better' person than a Catholic ? Actually, the antics of the paedophile priests answers this question as far as some individual Catholics are concerned and so I suppose the answer is that we can't say that Catholics are 'better' people than atheists - we have to take them one at a time.

Strangely, the atheists I have met have been more moral than the religious people. That is because the atheits actually thought through what they believed and cared about it and applied it to their lives rather than simply being born into a religion and told what to believe by their parents. What percentage of Catholics in the US were not born of Catholic parents ? Not many I bet - so it was handed to them rather than being the fruit of their own personal journey

If this is true then religious people in the U.S. need to be trained not to look down on people or pre-judge them because of their beliefs. Basically, they should be trained to ingest the first amendment Jefferson's subsequent explanation of the thinking behind it.

There are States which ban non religious people from public office. The State Constitutions need to be amended in this respect so that they conform to the 1st amendment. I will be a Citizen soon but I will be banned from holding State Office in some States

Yes, I don't believe that belonging to a religion makes someone 'good' and there are plenty of good people who are atheist. There are some atheist who behave more Christ-like then many Christians.

Everyone should think through on their sense of morality and not rely entirely on religious doctrine. IMO, if what is interpreted as a commandment of God goes entirely against ones reasonable rationale, then one should re-examine such a belief. Some Christians will label that as Moral Relativism, but I don't think God wants us to throw out all sense of reason when it comes to following any faith.

Edited October 30, 2010 by El Buscador

[Captain Oates 911]

Yes, I don't believe that belonging to a religion makes someone 'good' and there are plenty of good people who are atheist. There are some atheist who behave more Christ-like then many Christians.

Everyone should think through on their sense of morality and not rely entirely on religious doctrine. IMO, if what is interpreted as a commandment of God goes entirely against ones reasonable rationale, then one should re-examine such a belief. Some Christians will label that as Moral Relativism, but I don't think God wants us to throw out all sense of reason when it comes to following any faith.

Sounds like you have reached a happy position of being able to accomodate and reconcile all sorts of different ideas into what you believe and how you proceed.

Trouble is there are so many out there in the US who are not as accomodating and it's either their way or the fires.

Actually, as I am retired and can't be thrown out of a job or have my career or business ruined by the zealots, I should be able to relax and say it how I think. I know how people talk behind the back of a liberal council member when he leaves the room so I would get equally rough treatment I am sure.

I can handle the approbation but I would rather not - so a form of words along the lines of a 'Jeffersonian' might confuse them and throw them off the scent. They might actually learn something when they Google it at home afterwards.

This was a real eye opener to me:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

.

Edited October 30, 2010 by Alan the Red

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

There are States which ban non religious people from public office. The State Constitutions need to be amended in this respect so that they conform to the 1st amendment. I will be a Citizen soon but I will be banned from holding State Office in some States...

Only if you move to one of those back woods hick states down south and a few midwest bible belt states such as Kansas. Texas is a prime example of what you just posted. Probably some of the most back woods out dated laws in the US are in such southern states as Texas.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Is it possible for an atheist to be a 'better' person than a Catholic ? Actually, the antics of the paedophile priests answers this question as far as some individual Catholics are concerned and so I suppose the answer is that we can't say that Catholics are 'better' people than atheists - we have to take them one at a time.

Strangely, the atheists I have met have been more moral than the religious people. That is because the atheits actually thought through what they believed and cared about it and applied it to their lives rather than simply being born into a religion and told what to believe by their parents. What percentage of Catholics in the US were not born of Catholic parents ? Not many I bet - so it was handed to them rather than being the fruit of their own personal journey

If this is true then religious people in the U.S. need to be trained not to look down on people or pre-judge them because of their beliefs. Basically, they should be trained to ingest the first amendment Jefferson's subsequent explanation of the thinking behind it.

There are States which ban non religious people from public office. The State Constitutions need to be amended in this respect so that they conform to the 1st amendment. I will be a Citizen soon but I will be banned from holding State Office in some States

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23155562/ <---- Here's a prime example of religion having an impact on back water states. Thanks to the Feds, women in Texas can finally use vibrators legally. So ya if you want to be an atheist and run for a state office...just stay away from Southern and Bible Belt states. For some reason they seem to be stuck in the 19th century.

[Captain Oates 911]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23155562/ <---- Here's a prime example of religion having an impact on back water states. Thanks to the Feds, women in Texas can finally use vibrators legally. So ya if you want to be an atheist and run for a state office...just stay away from Southern and Bible Belt states. For some reason they seem to be stuck in the 19th century.

Or some time before 1787 I reckon. They probably think the Constitution is some kind of yankee invention.

Weird that Jimmy Carter comes from Georgia and was a farmer and yet sounds normal - I would like to meet him and ask him how come.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Or some time before 1787 I reckon. They probably think the Constitution is some kind of yankee invention.

Weird that Jimmy Carter comes from Georgia and was a farmer and yet sounds normal - I would like to meet him and ask him how come.

Jimmy Carter was in the minority. Nice man, great humanitarian. There's a few modern thinking southerners...but again they are in the minority. I blame it on the all the sun, beans and cornbread myself.

[Danno 1,228]

I have known for a while that describing oneself as an atheist is not acceptable in the US.

Some European countries have a huge majority of atheists and it is normal to be an atheist in the UK.

I have been looking at Calvinism and found out that most US religion is based on it. This creed works on the basis that we are call born full of sin and evil and then we get saved.

It follows that an atheist cannot be good or moral person and that is what the US attitude to atheists is based on

I have been here three years and visited for 30 and I have only just discovered the basis for the American antagonism towards atheists

Thomas Jefferson was anti Calvinist and anti Christian but without being anti-religious.

I have read previously that an American can accept anyone of any religion but not a person of none. Jefferson was instrumental in writing the constitution and in theory one can have no religion and be equal. In practice, Americans ignore their first amendment in this regard and are antagonistic to people of no religion

I am going to think about this realisation of the history and the source of these attitudes and figure out how to get the message over that I am not religious but I am as 'good' and 'moral' to other people as 99% of the devout priests and politicians and the extremely religious

I will describe myself as 'Jeffersonian' until I think of a more accurate description. It throws the average American into confusion to think that the man who wrote the Declaration of Independence and a lot of the Constitution, was scathing about the Christian Church and cut big chunks of the bible out with scissors in order to get rid of the miracles and superstition.

Alan Red you seem like too many Atheists I have encountered..... in that your lack of religion is as dominating in your life as is the faith of the most religious among us.

You even misrepresent Calvinism ... as well as Jefferson.

Here are the words of Jefferson, they neither make him a Christian or disconnect him from the Chrisitan faith completely... and certainly dispel any notion that he had no belief as some like to suggest.

Almighty God hath created the mind free...All attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens...are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion...No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship or ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion. I know but one code of morality for men whether acting singly or collectively.

-Jefferson memorial

We have no shortage of Atheists in this country... and around here, I don't notice them feeling or appearing to be out-casts or evil, maybe it's just your circle of friends?

Most of the people I deal with in my daily life.... I have no idea what their faith is, how is it so many know of your Atheism?

[Captain Oates 911]

Alan Red you seem like too many Atheists I have encountered..... in that your lack of religion is as dominating in your life as is the faith of the most religious among us.

You even misrepresent Calvinism ... as well as Jefferson.

Here are the words of Jefferson, they neither make him a Christian or disconnect him from the Chrisitan faith completely... and certainly dispel any notion that he had no belief as some like to suggest.

Almighty God hath created the mind free...All attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens...are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion...No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship or ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion. I know but one code of morality for men whether acting singly or collectively.

-Jefferson memorial

We have no shortage of Atheists in this country... and around here, I don't notice them feeling or appearing to be out-casts or evil, maybe it's just your circle of friends?

Most of the people I deal with in my daily life.... I have no idea what their faith is, how is it so many know of your Atheism?

Certainly Jefferson did believe in a god but he did reject Christianity (apart from Jesus's moral teachings) and Atheism.

The USA is one of the most religious societies in the world - more so than Iran by some accounts.

It is therefore natural that a non religious person should feel threatened by the intensity of religious feeling around them especially when some State laws legislate against non believers.

I read that Calvinism is the basis of much of American religious feeling and Calvinists regard the unsaved as being consumed with badness and evil from birth. I don't advertise my opinions in real life because if this is how religious people regard the unreligious, then I would be regarded as born evil and that only the saved could be trusted.

Here in rural Central Washington I mix with 100% Christians every day and hear what they would do to Orientals and Arabs and Mexicans if they got chance. They would set up machine gun nests on the Mexican border and mow down every man, woman, child and pet that tried to cross. They applaud the murder of abortion doctors and support executions.

Although Jefferson was no Christian, he did admire Jesus's teachings and many real life Christians in these parts are as as far away from those as anyone could get.

In these circumstances I keep quiet. I thought it was just the majority disapproving of the minority, but the more I read of Calvin based religions, the more I understand how I am viewed by members of those. Born bad, still bad and refusing to be not bad.

No point complaining about it because if I chose to live in the midst of an extremely religious society which hold Calvinist views, then I should be quiet and not invite their opposition. Doing so would be like moving to Korea and disproving of my neighbours killing dogs and eating them.

However, I now have a better understanding of where the intensensity of religious feeling comes from and why a non religious person could never be head of State in the USA. Religion has nothing to say about color, but it has got things to say about me. In that perspective, a non believer being elected President would be a million times more remarkable than a person of color.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Being an atheist would require far more thought given to religion than I am willing to do.

[Captain Oates 911]

Being an atheist would require far more thought given to religion than I am willing to do.

I know what you mean. I will just have to get used to living in a culture that is extremely religious; and if the only way to avoid hostility is to not address the issue at all while I am here - well that is certainly a valid and effective way of handling it.

David Attenborough makes some geat points like why did God create a worm that eats children's eyes. The religious will have a smooth answer for that as they have for everything because it's big business - so yes it's best not to engage.

ok I will leave you with this and shrink into my shell and do something else >>>>

http://www.atheistmedia.com/2007/08/david-attenborough-on-god.html

.