Back from Ukraine/Czech

[SMR 368]

I've said it before, the lines are more akin to a pyramid shape than our straight lines. People seem to funnel into the lead.

I hear a lot about how lines are different in Europe and the FSU but I think this is an exaggeration. In places like banks and post offices, the lines are pretty strictly followed. The thing is that people typically come in and ask who is last and then say that they are behind that person. It's not really important where everyone is standing. Everyone just remembers who is in front of them and who is behind them. It's sort of like taking a number without the pieces of paper.

As far as funnels on public transportation and such, that's pretty much universal in those types of situations. When there are only a dozen people waiting to get on a train, order typically reigns in pretty much every country. But when 700 people all what to go through three turn-styles or board one of two escalators, lines typically don't occur. It's just that in America, those types of situations occur much less, particularly if you don't live in a big city. Go to Grand Central Station during rush hour and you'll see pretty much the same pyramid shaped funnel.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I hear a lot about how lines are different in Europe and the FSU but I think this is an exaggeration. In places like banks and post offices, the lines are pretty strictly followed. The thing is that people typically come in and ask who is last and then say that they are behind that person. It's not really important where everyone is standing. Everyone just remembers who is in front of them and who is behind them. It's sort of like taking a number without the pieces of paper.

As far as funnels on public transportation and such, that's pretty much universal in those types of situations. When there are only a dozen people waiting to get on a train, order typically reigns in pretty much every country. But when 700 people all what to go through three turn-styles or board one of two escalators, lines typically don't occur. It's just that in America, those types of situations occur much less, particularly if you don't live in a big city. Go to Grand Central Station during rush hour and you'll see pretty much the same pyramid shaped funnel.

I always was of the opinion that the FSU was quite orderly, though I admit to a lack of experience on such things in big US cities. The people on the subway in Kiev, for example, seem to move along just fine and the escalators are fast enough to scare you and make US liability attorneys drool (I always wondered why US attorneys have not flooded into Ukraine! The "handicap ramps" at the pedestrian tunnels are the funniest thing I ever saw!)

On the other hand, I have found Turkey to be an utterly rude and horrible place in that regard. We went there a couple of times and I had absolutely no desire to leave the "westernized" resort we stayed at.

[SMR 368]

I always was of the opinion that the FSU was quite orderly, though I admit to a lack of experience on such things in big US cities. The people on the subway in Kiev, for example, seem to move along just fine and the escalators are fast enough to scare you and make US liability attorneys drool (I always wondered why US attorneys have not flooded into Ukraine! The "handicap ramps" at the pedestrian tunnels are the funniest thing I ever saw!)

On the other hand, I have found Turkey to be an utterly rude and horrible place in that regard. We went there a couple of times and I had absolutely no desire to leave the "westernized" resort we stayed at.

Once you get onto the escalator, things are pretty orderly. If you're standing, keep to the right. If you want to walk or run down the escalator while it is descending, you can use the left. For some reason (probably because it's tiring), running up the escalator is not socially acceptable and the up escalators have people standing all the way across.

It's the big crowd of people around the entrance to the escalator that isn't exactly orderly. However, I wouldn't say it is that ridiculous. Although it isn't a line, people are pretty conscious of who is waiting where. And as the pseudo lines in the pyramid merge, people sort of take turns. It's not the pinnacle of order, but neither are things in the US.

As far as the liability lawyers, Russia and Ukraine have a healthy dose of common sense. If thousands of people walk these stairs every day, for instance, and you fell, it must be that you are an idiot. Why would you expect money for being an idiot?

As far as the "handi-cap ramps" I'm pretty sure those are more intended for use by people with carts and wheeled-suitcase type devices. On the other hand, I have not yet found the device that has wheels at the same spacing as those ramps (Russia is not that big on standards). Maybe I should introduce a line of suitcases and carts and advertise them as carts that actually fit on the rails on metro staircases. It might be a hit.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Once you get onto the escalator, things are pretty orderly. If you're standing, keep to the right. If you want to walk or run down the escalator while it is descending, you can use the left. For some reason (probably because it's tiring), running up the escalator is not socially acceptable and the up escalators have people standing all the way across.

It's the big crowd of people around the entrance to the escalator that isn't exactly orderly. However, I wouldn't say it is that ridiculous. Although it isn't a line, people are pretty conscious of who is waiting where. And as the pseudo lines in the pyramid merge, people sort of take turns. It's not the pinnacle of order, but neither are things in the US.

As far as the liability lawyers, Russia and Ukraine have a healthy dose of common sense. If thousands of people walk these stairs every day, for instance, and you fell, it must be that you are an idiot. Why would you expect money for being an idiot?

As far as the "handi-cap ramps" I'm pretty sure those are more intended for use by people with carts and wheeled-suitcase type devices. On the other hand, I have not yet found the device that has wheels at the same spacing as those ramps (Russia is not that big on standards). Maybe I should introduce a line of suitcases and carts and advertise them as carts that actually fit on the rails on metro staircases. It might be a hit.

I wouldn't even put my suitcase on thoise, and I have seen solid wide ramps with NO indication of where the ramp is so that one approaching may step onto the steep ramp instead of the stairs!

There was (probably still is) a huge hole in the sidewalk in Donetsk right across from the market where we buy groceries and such. It opens into a huge catch-basin. Obviously a wash out of one of the few storm sewers (streets serve as storm sewers in most areas of the city) I said to Alla "You will NEVER see this in the USA, they would call the Fire Dept and it would be immediately blocked off and it would be fixed within 24 hours, they would not allow ANYONE within 5 meters of this hole!" Why? Alla said "Ukrainians do not walk in holes".

The police caught Pasha and some friends between some buildings when he was 12 years old, smoking cigarettes one of the boys got from his older brother. Y'know...cool 12 year olds smoking in the alley.

The police decided to dole out the punishment themselves. They confiscated the cigarettes, shook down the boys for 7 Hryvnia they had between them (a little more than $1 at that time) and then took turns making the boys sit on an exposed pipe and shocked them with their stun guns through the pipe! Alla says "Good! I do not want Pasha smoking"

Can you even imagine US police shocking 12 year olds wit stun guns!!!!!??????

[SMR 368]

I wouldn't even put my suitcase on thoise, and I have seen solid wide ramps with NO indication of where the ramp is so that one approaching may step onto the steep ramp instead of the stairs!

There was (probably still is) a huge hole in the sidewalk in Donetsk right across from the market where we buy groceries and such. It opens into a huge catch-basin. Obviously a wash out of one of the few storm sewers (streets serve as storm sewers in most areas of the city) I said to Alla "You will NEVER see this in the USA, they would call the Fire Dept and it would be immediately blocked off and it would be fixed within 24 hours, they would not allow ANYONE within 5 meters of this hole!" Why? Alla said "Ukrainians do not walk in holes".

The police caught Pasha and some friends between some buildings when he was 12 years old, smoking cigarettes one of the boys got from his older brother. Y'know...cool 12 year olds smoking in the alley.

The police decided to dole out the punishment themselves. They confiscated the cigarettes, shook down the boys for 7 Hryvnia they had between them (a little more than $1 at that time) and then took turns making the boys sit on an exposed pipe and shocked them with their stun guns through the pipe! Alla says "Good! I do not want Pasha smoking"

Can you even imagine US police shocking 12 year olds wit stun guns!!!!!??????

For some reason, many people in the US have this screwed up mentality that their kids do no wrong. If someone punishes or even criticizes them, that person is evil and unfair. If someone catches your kid being a moron or a jerk, you should thank them for looking after your kid.

How exactly you come up with the idea of shocking someone through a pipe is somewhat beyond me. But it's a good idea. Just not one that would come to me in the first round of brainstorming.

[eekee 182]

I don't think the police forces in Ukraine or Russia are anything to admire. I have heard far too many horror stories. Their interest is not in protecting the populace at all and they have basically unlimited power.

[slim 1,514]

they don't really "que" like we do.

The most orderly line I waited in while visting Moscow was the line to the museum. It was composed entirely of foreigners.

I don't think the police forces in Ukraine or Russia are anything to admire. I have heard far too many horror stories. Their interest is not in protecting the populace at all and they have basically unlimited power.

Yes, but you can also shove them and yell at them. Here, if you even talk in a disrespectful manner towards them, you're hauled off to jail for obstruction or some other trumped up charges. There's more of a commen sense approach to policing over there.

[SMR 368]

I don't think the police forces in Ukraine or Russia are anything to admire. I have heard far too many horror stories. Their interest is not in protecting the populace at all and they have basically unlimited power.

My intention wasn't so much to admire the efficiency of Russian or Ukrainian police as to point out that Alla handled the situation very well. Sure, the police can get out of hand. My point is just that people need to think before instantly assuming that anyone who punishes or criticizes their child is wrong and abusive. Sometimes, you child is out of line.

[eekee 182]

The most orderly line I waited in while visting Moscow was the line to the museum. It was composed entirely of foreigners.

Yes, but you can also shove them and yell at them. Here, if you even talk in a disrespectful manner towards them, you're hauled off to jail for obstruction or some other trumped up charges. There's more of a commen sense approach to policing over there.

"Common sense" in that they are thieves and thugs? I fear the police as much I do an actual criminal. I have friends who have ended up in the hospital with their jaws wired shut when they didn't commit an actual crime. One of my female friends, who was dating an American, was hauled down to the police station and they accused her of being a drug-addicted prostitute and tried to get her to service the entire station sexually. Common sense indeed.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I don't think the police forces in Ukraine or Russia are anything to admire. I have heard far too many horror stories. Their interest is not in protecting the populace at all and they have basically unlimited power.

In general I agree. The almost unanimous chorus when Ukraine raised their drinking age to 21 ( ) was "the police needed a raise!"

It is a very common sight to see 13 and 14 year olds sharing a big bottle of beer at the corner kiosk. When the police catch them they march them around threatening all sorts of cruel and inhumane punishment, extracting all the money they can from them and then let them go. The kids know it is a shake down and mae sure to have a little money with them when they go to share a bottle of beer. No doubt they then go and shake down the seller of the beer for another bribe.

They are also famous for hasseling people for no particular reason. I was routinely stopped and harrassed while living in Odessa but never paid a bribe. I never really did anything worng and I kept my "papers" with me at all times. For some reason they often initially addressed me in GERMAN! "he is definitely a foreigner, look at those shoes! He must be a German, probably a Nazi" I understand Russian police are worse.

I got harrassed much less when I was with Alla and she would tell them to "get lost", basically.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

"Common sense" in that they are thieves and thugs? I fear the police as much I do an actual criminal. I have friends who have ended up in the hospital with their jaws wired shut when they didn't commit an actual crime. One of my female friends, who was dating an American, was hauled down to the police station and they accused her of being a drug-addicted prostitute and tried to get her to service the entire station sexually. Common sense indeed.

Yeah they are bacially "gopniks". Ne'er do wells that couldn't finish high school. Underpaid and without a chance of getting a really good job they make a living shaking people down for bribes. I doubt there are many parking or traffic tickets actually paid. If your friend was REALLY a drug addicted prostitute she would have paid them off before they got to the police station. I never quite figured out all the police agencies, but they seem to be everywhere.

The older ones are frustrated Soviets that long for the good ol' days.

In general I was told to do all I could to avoid them and I did. I was even told not to be heard speaking English when they were nearby or passing you as it was just a blantant invitation to being hasseled. I think that may have been a bit over cautious, but I get the point. I did have one militia guy carrying an AKM follow me around for nearly an hour when I was just walking around the city.

That always comes to mind when I see Ukraine's new "tourist slogan" ..."If you feel like something is missing in your life, Come to Ukraine, maybe you will find it!"

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

My intention wasn't so much to admire the efficiency of Russian or Ukrainian police as to point out that Alla handled the situation very well. Sure, the police can get out of hand. My point is just that people need to think before instantly assuming that anyone who punishes or criticizes their child is wrong and abusive. Sometimes, you child is out of line.

Children are treated differently in Ukraine by everyone and have different expectations that they had just better comply with. Or Babushka will get out her hammer...and sickle! They get some rather stiff punishment in school also and corporal punishment is regular. Alla told the principal here he was free "to beat Pasha" if needed "It is OK but try not to give any real injuries"

Actually one of her greatest fears and one reason she really likes living in the US was to get her youngest child away from the culture of drinking that is pervasive in Donetsk and no doubt Ukraine in general.

I guess the upshot is that children in Ukraine, especially boys, still do a lot of drinking. While you may agree to the police being strict, or the parents (I should say "mothers") being strict it hasn't resulted in less drinking. All of that will not overcome the cultural belief that a "man" has to drink alcohol. The women will forever fight that battle with their sins and grandsons and the police will forever supplement their income by stealing kids lunch money, but the problem of alcoholism will never go away until then MEN tell the boys..."hey, that just is not cool" When the MEN offer alternatives for the boys and the MEN do things to be respected for that do not involve alcohol, the boys may change.

[eekee 182]

I think you're spot on, Gary. Kids in the FSU are far more independent and parents don't treat their children like they can do no wrong. My own mother had a child-rearing attitude that was much more close to the FSU model than the current American one and if I, for example, did well in school, I didn't get heaped with praise and presents like so many American children seem to. It was more, well, good, you did what you're supposed to. Now it seems like parents are expected to do their children's homework for them, and that every bowel movement must be celebrated and praised.

I have noticed the same things with WEALTHY Russian kids though. When I work with kids, I almost want to refuse to work with rich ones because they tend to be uncontrollable and rude.

The Russian government is trying to overhaul the police force and also curb drinking, but it's tough to initiate cultural sea changes. You have to make the police force an attractive profession, change the leadership, and really just gut the entire system, and THEN change the attitudes of the populace toward the police. As for drinking, they are going to make it harder and more expensive to get alcohol, without addressing the reason why people drink so much in the first place. They've tried to do what they're trying to do now several times in Russian history, and it's never worked because limiting access doesn't work in Russian culture because there's no faith in formal institutions. Americans see a locked door and turn around. Russians find another way in, and that way is dangerous, illegal grain alcohol and shoe polish and all of those other perestroika/sukhoi zakon relics.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I think you're spot on, Gary. Kids in the FSU are far more independent and parents don't treat their children like they can do no wrong. My own mother had a child-rearing attitude that was much more close to the FSU model than the current American one and if I, for example, did well in school, I didn't get heaped with praise and presents like so many American children seem to. It was more, well, good, you did what you're supposed to. Now it seems like parents are expected to do their children's homework for them, and that every bowel movement must be celebrated and praised.

I have noticed the same things with WEALTHY Russian kids though. When I work with kids, I almost want to refuse to work with rich ones because they tend to be uncontrollable and rude.

The Russian government is trying to overhaul the police force and also curb drinking, but it's tough to initiate cultural sea changes. You have to make the police force an attractive profession, change the leadership, and really just gut the entire system, and THEN change the attitudes of the populace toward the police. As for drinking, they are going to make it harder and more expensive to get alcohol, without addressing the reason why people drink so much in the first place. They've tried to do what they're trying to do now several times in Russian history, and it's never worked because limiting access doesn't work in Russian culture because there's no faith in formal institutions. Americans see a locked door and turn around. Russians find another way in, and that way is dangerous, illegal grain alcohol and shoe polish and all of those other perestroika/sukhoi zakon relics.

Yes, I am a bit surprised that Alla's attitude is "What is this 'honor roll' thing? What do they expect?" Pasha was bumped up two grades just a couple months after entering school here and the general reaction was "Yeah, and what?" It is just expected that they will get A's and nearly perfect A's at that. A score of 93 isn't good enough.

I helped with his homework every night for about 3 months and since then only occasionally and he is getting straight A's in even US history and English class. Even Babushka was happy he made the honor roll (and got his name in the newspaper) but was kind of surprised "they put stuff like that in the newspaper? So what?"

Sergey never was one to get invoved with drinking or smoking and such, but Pasha could and Alla has always feared that. So far, so good. But yeah, let him get loose in Donetsk and I think he would share a bottle of beer (or maybe BUY for all his friends since he is now the "rich American") or smoke cigarettes. He is more influenced by such things, but also can be influenced for the good.

[slim 1,514]

"Common sense" in that they are thieves and thugs?

No. Common sense in that they don't worry about the paperwork before they take action. Here, if the cops come up to kids drinking beer and smoking cigarettes, time was they'd call their parents or deal with it in some other way. Now, they have to file a report, send the kids through a counseling program and all the while they're watching what they do and say so they don't get in trouble themselves.

The county sheriff or the small town cop can still do common sense stuff like that. City cops, not so much.

without addressing the reason why people drink so much in the first place.

That's what we try to do here in America too and it doesn't work either. Like you said about the locked doors, we'll just turn around. But, what Americans don't seem to realize is you can't lock every single door because eventually you'll get cold standing outside. Instead of us figuring out how to make it work we're under the impression we can build a new house farther away from the problems.