Crucifix banned by school in Australia

[kittykatwoman 0]

Ideally, people would be able to wear whatever they want freely and openly - cross, pentagram, hammer of Thor, star of David, whatever. However, since some can't do so without ridicule and harassment, I agree with the "no visible necklaces" policy.

Yes exactly, since also there is this all stupid 'my God is better than your God' thing, everybody should keep their belief secret

[Veiled Princess 1]

In france, religion is a private thing, it stays home not that it doesn't exist...

For those who know our history, our philosophs and our culture, it's easy to understand.

No proselistism and no ostentatious sign, if people want their kids to be in religious school, they have to go in private schools but not in the state one.

Christianity is dead in France, we are a secular democracy, there is no mention of God in our hymn, no God on our money and God is nowhere here, churches are beautiful museum of the past.

How sad.

Oh but this is not the US so I don't know what the laws are there

VP, you noticed

I did I'm slowly coming to the realization that the US is not the only country in the world

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

VP, you noticed

I did I'm slowly coming to the realization that the US is not the only country in the world

[PsychoKat 0]

Jenn3539 I noticed the part in this where you mention it's happening here

Crucifix banned by school in Australia, so it's not just happening here...

If you are having a problem with your childs/childrens (If you have them) school banning things like this in the US, not only pertaining to Christian religious expression but pertaining to any other religious expression, take some time to educate them about The No Child Left Behind policies and what they stand to lose by restricting this. Their government funding....money talks

Section 9524 of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act ("ESEA") of 1965, as amended by the No Child Left Behind Act of 2001, requires the Secretary to issue guidance on constitutionally protected prayer in public elementary and secondary schools. In addition, Section 9524 requires that, as a condition of receiving ESEA funds, a local educational agency ("LEA") must certify in writing to its State educational agency ("SEA") that it has no policy that prevents, or otherwise denies participation in, constitutionally protected prayer in public schools as set forth in this guidance.

Although the Constitution forbids public school officials from directing or favoring prayer, students do not "shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate," [ 9 ] and the Supreme Court has made clear that "private religious speech, far from being a First Amendment orphan, is as fully protected under the Free Speech Clause as secular private expression." [ 10 ] Moreover, not all religious speech that takes place in the public schools or at school-sponsored events is governmental speech. [ 11 ] For example, "nothing in the Constitution ... prohibits any public school student from voluntarily praying at any time before, during, or after the school day," [ 12 ] and students may pray with fellow students during the school day on the same terms and conditions that they may engage in other conversation or speech. Likewise, local school authorities possess substantial discretion to impose rules of order and pedagogical restrictions on student activities, [ 13 ] but they may not structure or administer such rules to discriminate against student prayer or religious speech. For instance, where schools permit student expression on the basis of genuinely neutral criteria and students retain primary control over the content of their expression, the speech of students who choose to express themselves through religious means such as prayer is not attributable to the state and therefore may not be restricted because of its religious content. [ 14 ] Student remarks are not attributable to the state simply because they are delivered in a public setting or to a public audience. [ 15 ] As the Supreme Court has explained: "The proposition that schools do not endorse everything they fail to censor is not complicated," [ 16 ] and the Constitution mandates neutrality rather than hostility toward privately initiated religious expression. [ 17 ]

Religion in Schools under No Child Left Behind

Edited August 22, 2006 by PsychoKat

[Fuzzness 2]

The No Child Left Behind act is one of the most ridiculous pieces of legislation ever thought of

[PsychoKat 0]

The No Child Left Behind act is one of the most ridiculous pieces of legislation ever thought of

Yes I agree wholeheartedly with you there, it's created an environment where the scores the schools make are more important than ensuring an environment that encourages a love of learning.....now it's all about pushing the kids (not teaching them) so the school scores well.

But, on the upside it does protect a students right to express their beliefs, be it Christian, Pagan, Wiccan, whatever and I do feel that is important.

[Fuzzness 2]

The No Child Left Behind act is one of the most ridiculous pieces of legislation ever thought of

Yes I agree wholeheartedly with you there, it's created an environment where the scores the schools make are more important than ensuring an environment that encourages a love of learning.....now it's all about pushing the kids (not teaching them) so the school scores well.

But, on the upside it does protect a students right to express their beliefs, be it Christian, Pagan, Wiccan, whatever and I do feel that is important.

That still doesn't happen. The high school here denied a group of gay/hetero alliance to form a club. They then said that no extracurricular clubs would be allowed to form on school property. However, they secretly allowed all the clubs to reform without telling anyone. The ACLU sued and won. Equal access law or something. I'm still wondering why the school principal and the county superintendent are still in their current positions.

[PsychoKat 0]

The No Child Left Behind act is one of the most ridiculous pieces of legislation ever thought of

Yes I agree wholeheartedly with you there, it's created an environment where the scores the schools make are more important than ensuring an environment that encourages a love of learning.....now it's all about pushing the kids (not teaching them) so the school scores well.

But, on the upside it does protect a students right to express their beliefs, be it Christian, Pagan, Wiccan, whatever and I do feel that is important.

That still doesn't happen. The high school here denied a group of gay/hetero alliance to form a club. They then said that no extracurricular clubs would be allowed to form on school property. However, they secretly allowed all the clubs to reform without telling anyone. The ACLU sued and won. Equal access law or something. I'm still wondering why the school principal and the county superintendent are still in their current positions.

Despite the rules in place often so long as they can play at ignorance to keep the "majority" from getting their panties in a bind they will. Sometimes it can take something so simple as showing them you are educated in the matter, sometimes you still have to fight despite it all, some fear displeasing the masses so much they will do whatever they can to try to force conformance.

My daughters boyfriend had quite a time at school, he is pagan and would wear a penticle to school and every time he did he was hauled down to the office for it, and being a young somewhat rebelious teenage boy he knew it was wrong but would just get angry with them, finally one day he was caught drawing a penticle on his notebook with a big black marker and ended up expelled for 3 days for it. At that point I stepped in (I'm a bit more educated and pro-active than his mother) I printed out the portion from the No Child Left Behind policy along with documentation of numerous court cases where the students right to wear a penticle in school were upheld. When he went back to school...wearing a penticle necklace, he was once again called into the office but this time he presented the documentation proving that they were in the wrong. The dean said, well you've certainly done your homework. And sent him back to class and never bothered him again about it.

[Fuzzness 2]

The No Child Left Behind act is one of the most ridiculous pieces of legislation ever thought of

Yes I agree wholeheartedly with you there, it's created an environment where the scores the schools make are more important than ensuring an environment that encourages a love of learning.....now it's all about pushing the kids (not teaching them) so the school scores well.

But, on the upside it does protect a students right to express their beliefs, be it Christian, Pagan, Wiccan, whatever and I do feel that is important.

That still doesn't happen. The high school here denied a group of gay/hetero alliance to form a club. They then said that no extracurricular clubs would be allowed to form on school property. However, they secretly allowed all the clubs to reform without telling anyone. The ACLU sued and won. Equal access law or something. I'm still wondering why the school principal and the county superintendent are still in their current positions.

Despite the rules in place often so long as they can play at ignorance to keep the "majority" from getting their panties in a bind they will. Sometimes it can take something so simple as showing them you are educated in the matter, sometimes you still have to fight despite it all, some fear displeasing the masses so much they will do whatever they can to try to force conformance.

My daughters boyfriend had quite a time at school, he is pagan and would wear a penticle to school and every time he did he was hauled down to the office for it, and being a young somewhat rebelious teenage boy he knew it was wrong but would just get angry with them, finally one day he was caught drawing a penticle on his notebook with a big black marker and ended up expelled for 3 days for it. At that point I stepped in (I'm a bit more educated and pro-active than his mother) I printed out the portion from the No Child Left Behind policy along with documentation of numerous court cases where the students right to wear a penticle in school were upheld. When he went back to school...wearing a penticle necklace, he was once again called into the office but this time he presented the documentation proving that they were in the wrong. The dean said, well you've certainly done your homework. And sent him back to class and never bothered him again about it.

and it's pentAcle

personally i wouldn't advise on wearing a pentacle to school, or in public, knowing how people will react. but it still is his right.

which once again I do believe this shows that being forced to remove christian jewelry doesn't happen as often as some people would have us believe

[PsychoKat 0]

The No Child Left Behind act is one of the most ridiculous pieces of legislation ever thought of

Yes I agree wholeheartedly with you there, it's created an environment where the scores the schools make are more important than ensuring an environment that encourages a love of learning.....now it's all about pushing the kids (not teaching them) so the school scores well.

But, on the upside it does protect a students right to express their beliefs, be it Christian, Pagan, Wiccan, whatever and I do feel that is important.

That still doesn't happen. The high school here denied a group of gay/hetero alliance to form a club. They then said that no extracurricular clubs would be allowed to form on school property. However, they secretly allowed all the clubs to reform without telling anyone. The ACLU sued and won. Equal access law or something. I'm still wondering why the school principal and the county superintendent are still in their current positions.

Despite the rules in place often so long as they can play at ignorance to keep the "majority" from getting their panties in a bind they will. Sometimes it can take something so simple as showing them you are educated in the matter, sometimes you still have to fight despite it all, some fear displeasing the masses so much they will do whatever they can to try to force conformance.

My daughters boyfriend had quite a time at school, he is pagan and would wear a penticle to school and every time he did he was hauled down to the office for it, and being a young somewhat rebelious teenage boy he knew it was wrong but would just get angry with them, finally one day he was caught drawing a penticle on his notebook with a big black marker and ended up expelled for 3 days for it. At that point I stepped in (I'm a bit more educated and pro-active than his mother) I printed out the portion from the No Child Left Behind policy along with documentation of numerous court cases where the students right to wear a penticle in school were upheld. When he went back to school...wearing a penticle necklace, he was once again called into the office but this time he presented the documentation proving that they were in the wrong. The dean said, well you've certainly done your homework. And sent him back to class and never bothered him again about it.

and it's pentAcle

personally i wouldn't advise on wearing a pentacle to school, or in public, knowing how people will react. but it still is his right.

which once again I do believe this shows that being forced to remove christian jewelry doesn't happen as often as some people would have us believe

Yes yes it is a pentacle..hands are not cooperating this morning.

I wear a pentacle always, of course people might react adversely but it's a lack of understanding more often than not. People often associate it with satanism, which inverted it is used to symbolize (and if someone wants to practice that as a religion it's their right anyway) You'd be surprised at how often people will ask me what it stands for, rather than run away scared though

[Fuzzness 2]

The No Child Left Behind act is one of the most ridiculous pieces of legislation ever thought of

Yes I agree wholeheartedly with you there, it's created an environment where the scores the schools make are more important than ensuring an environment that encourages a love of learning.....now it's all about pushing the kids (not teaching them) so the school scores well.

But, on the upside it does protect a students right to express their beliefs, be it Christian, Pagan, Wiccan, whatever and I do feel that is important.

That still doesn't happen. The high school here denied a group of gay/hetero alliance to form a club. They then said that no extracurricular clubs would be allowed to form on school property. However, they secretly allowed all the clubs to reform without telling anyone. The ACLU sued and won. Equal access law or something. I'm still wondering why the school principal and the county superintendent are still in their current positions.

Despite the rules in place often so long as they can play at ignorance to keep the "majority" from getting their panties in a bind they will. Sometimes it can take something so simple as showing them you are educated in the matter, sometimes you still have to fight despite it all, some fear displeasing the masses so much they will do whatever they can to try to force conformance.

My daughters boyfriend had quite a time at school, he is pagan and would wear a penticle to school and every time he did he was hauled down to the office for it, and being a young somewhat rebelious teenage boy he knew it was wrong but would just get angry with them, finally one day he was caught drawing a penticle on his notebook with a big black marker and ended up expelled for 3 days for it. At that point I stepped in (I'm a bit more educated and pro-active than his mother) I printed out the portion from the No Child Left Behind policy along with documentation of numerous court cases where the students right to wear a penticle in school were upheld. When he went back to school...wearing a penticle necklace, he was once again called into the office but this time he presented the documentation proving that they were in the wrong. The dean said, well you've certainly done your homework. And sent him back to class and never bothered him again about it.

and it's pentAcle

personally i wouldn't advise on wearing a pentacle to school, or in public, knowing how people will react. but it still is his right.

which once again I do believe this shows that being forced to remove christian jewelry doesn't happen as often as some people would have us believe

Yes yes it is a pentacle..hands are not cooperating this morning.

I wear a pentacle always, of course people might react adversely but it's a lack of understanding more often than not. People often associate it with satanism, which inverted it is used to symbolize (and if someone wants to practice that as a religion it's their right anyway) You'd be surprised at how often people will ask me what it stands for, rather than run away scared though

depends on your area. i know a person who wore a pentacle in plain sight in a catholic church and then complained about being kicked out. i was like.... DUH!!

[iceyspots 0]

[PsychoKat 0]

BTW my answer to those who still have a problem with it is we might not agree with each others beliefs but it does not negate our rights to hold to what we believe in.

Something I've seen come up in debates concerning the rights of those who are Pagan or Wiccan in predominantly Christian environments is an attempt to ban those beliefs and attempt to force conformance.

Some examples:

"I don't think witchcraft is a religion. I would hope the military officials would take a second look at the decision they made." G.W. Bush ®, at the time, Governor of Texas. Interviewed on ABC's Good Morning America, 1999-JUN-24 by Peggy Wehmeyer.

Steve Smothermon, pastor of Church On The Move commented: "I am here opposing your policy which you’ve enacted without a vote on the pentagram being allowed in schools. I would like to see a show of hands of those who oppose the pentagram and support our First Amendment rights."

And this type of attitude is something I make a point of addressing. Here we see people attempting to force others to conform to religious beliefs that they consider valid while discounting others, and thinking they have the right to do so, since their religious belief systems are held by the majority at least in the US. But think about this, if they were successful and somewhere down the line the majority shifted, would they be willing to give up their belief system and allow the new majority to force them to conforming to a whole new faith?

[aussiewench 9]

It seems pretty obvious to me. The school has a "no visible necklaces" policy. They can do that if they want. Would her necklace somehow mean less to her if she wore it under her shirt? The fact that she's making a fuss about it - that it can't be DISPLAYED - tells me something.

Back in the days when I wore a pentagram, I HAD to wear it under my shirt unless I wanted to be constantly harassed and told I was going to hell. Odds are, she would be one of the first to do the same to a student wearing a pentagram.

Ideally, people would be able to wear whatever they want freely and openly - cross, pentagram, hammer of Thor, star of David, whatever. However, since some can't do so without ridicule and harassment, I agree with the "no visible necklaces" policy.

I went to an all girls catholic school here in australia and we had a 'no visible jewellery' policy. This included crucifix necklaces. The only jewellery that was allowed was plain studs or sleepers if had ears pierced.

Edited August 22, 2006 by aussiewench

[Veiled Princess 1]

BTW my answer to those who still have a problem with it is we might not agree with each others beliefs but it does not negate our rights to hold to what we believe in.

Something I've seen come up in debates concerning the rights of those who are Pagan or Wiccan in predominantly Christian environments is an attempt to ban those beliefs and attempt to force conformance.

Some examples:

"I don't think witchcraft is a religion. I would hope the military officials would take a second look at the decision they made." G.W. Bush ®, at the time, Governor of Texas. Interviewed on ABC's Good Morning America, 1999-JUN-24 by Peggy Wehmeyer.

Steve Smothermon, pastor of Church On The Move commented: "I am here opposing your policy which you've enacted without a vote on the pentagram being allowed in schools. I would like to see a show of hands of those who oppose the pentagram and support our First Amendment rights."

And this type of attitude is something I make a point of addressing. Here we see people attempting to force others to conform to religious beliefs that they consider valid while discounting others, and thinking they have the right to do so, since their religious belief systems are held by the majority at least in the US. But think about this, if they were successful and somewhere down the line the majority shifted, would they be willing to give up their belief system and allow the new majority to force them to conforming to a whole new faith?

I personally don't agree with witchcraft as a religion although for a long period in my life I practiced, but if the US is supposed to be a purely secular society where all faiths are accepted then they shouldn't be discriminated against anymore than jews, christians, muslims, hindus, etc. etc. etc.