Ukraine K-1 initial denial - next steps to fix

[SMR 368]

How does the above quoted statement equate to "if she has sex with you, she will be really committed to you", or "if she had sex with you, that would instantly mean she could be trusted", or any of the other things you claim I said?

I said what I said. The advise was meant for the OP. The OP met her online, 3 months later met her in person, and 3 months after that they agreed to marry. During the 6 month wait, he met with her a couple more times. He was being scammed. She was scamming many men. Women who do this do not sleep with these men. My advice stands. If he is going to go about this the same way again, he should wait until there is intimacy between them before he files his next K-1.

I understand you have a differing opinion. And you have a right to disagree.

However, I ask that you not claim I say something completely different...

You're right, you never said that if a woman has sex with you, she isn't scamming you. Only that if she doesn't, she probably is. That is, you only implied that the group of women refusing sex are completely contained within the group of scammers.

My point is that there is no meaningful correlation between whether a woman will have sex while engaged and whether she is scamming. In order to demonstrate a lack of correlation, I have argued that it doesn't go either way. You're right, you didn't state the reverse. But you did state, or at least imply, that a woman that won't have intimate relations can't be trusted. That's insulting and ridiculous.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

That's not necessarily an indicator of promiscuity. That's called "thinking pulling out is a good form of birth control." Also, birth contol pills are "heeeeemiya." And it's only in the past few years that attitudes toward condoms have changed from "I know what I'm doing, we don't need one" to guys carrying them around.

Among the women I know, they tend to have lost their virginity at younger ages, but I wouldn't say that they're more promiscuous overall than American women. And there's a LOT more stigma to sleeping around.

OK, so thinking "pulling out" is NOT promiscuous and taking birth control pills is? Whatever. I can only remark on my experience and it was about 100 times easier to get laid in Ukraine than here. Seriously, you could easily have a different girl every night if you wanted. Not even a challenge, so to speak.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I would just point out that many Ukrainians are very religious and often have religous reasons for wanting to save themselves for marriage. So it really just depends what type of person you get ahold of and what their personal beliefs are...that's one of the things that attracted me to my wife initially. She was ultra-religious and had high moral standards.

Sure. And the Orthodox Church forbids abortion. So all the abortions being done in Ukraine are to non-Orthodox women? An astromical number that puts the FSU in a class by itself for sheer numbers of abortions. Strongly religious women that will not have sex before marriage are a tiny minority of the general population of women over ge 16

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I didn't mean that it was the ONLY way. This was in response to the fact that someone can be scamming you and still have sex with you. I was simply pointing out that while someone may be a good enough actress to fake romantic feelings on a walk on the beach, it's a bit harder to fake that during sex and sex has a lot more to do with emotions for women than men, generally speaking. So someone who might not be bright or aware enough, or too blinded by beauty, to realize when they're being taken for a ride, might realize it when it becomes clearer in the bedroom.

I do not relate sex to scamming or not. Would someone expect that a woman that would scam a man of thousands of dollars will suddenly get a case of the "religious morals" when it comes to taking her clothes off? Ever heard of "sparrow school"? It still operates as a private organization.

I am simply observing that FSU women ARE in general more promiscuous than Ameircan women, so are most European women, not just the FSU.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

You said, "If there is no intimacy before agreeing to leave her country and marry you, you should assume something is awry..."

Unless you intended intimacy to imply something other than sex (I suppose that's possible), I really can't see how this could be interpreted another way. You stated that you should assume something is awry if a woman agrees to emigrate and marry you without having had sex with you. Now, we can debate the definition of awry if you want. But given that the discussion was about scamming, that would have been the contextual implication of the word.

I'll admit that you state this as way of indication, not as way of a test. You're not necessarily encouraging guys to go out and "test" their women. You're only implying that if a woman wants to marry you but isn't having sex with you, something is awry.

I realize that any advice on this forum is take it or leave it. But I also think that if someone gives rotten advice they should be called out on it. Your advice is not only insulting and chauvinistic, it's also not very useful. The simple fact that a girl wants to marry you but doesn't want to be intimate yet does not mean anything is awry. (I realize you connected marriage with emigration in this context but I see that as extraneous).

Unless you meant something else by "awry..." other than being a scammer (which would be odd since the discussion was about scammers) that is exactly what your advice consists of: If she isn't willing to sleep with you but wants to marry you, she is probably a scammer.

It could be that she just doesn't like sex and that would be "awry" in my book. If there is some hang uops about sex I want to know it before I marry her. Sorry, but sex IS a part of being married, it is a sexual relationship, among other things and to try and fool oneself that it is not, is just foolish. I have no intention of marrying a woman who will not be satisfactory in lovemaking and most FSU women want nothing of man that cannot take care if them in that department by one means or another...whatever, never mind.

Seems like most FSU women really want to be desired by their husbands (not a bad thing in my mind) and I want to desire my wife, but if the experience is full of roadblocks, inhibitions and sqeemishness...no thanks.

I would just never consider it and wish you the best of luck if you disagree.

[eekee 182]

OK, so thinking "pulling out" is NOT promiscuous and taking birth control pills is? Whatever. I can only remark on my experience and it was about 100 times easier to get laid in Ukraine than here. Seriously, you could easily have a different girl every night if you wanted. Not even a challenge, so to speak.

No, I'm not implying that birth control pills are promiscuous or that pulling out isn't. I was pointing out why the rates of abortion are so high--lack of decent sex education and poor use of/lack of contraceptive devices. It's not that people have more sex. It's that people are having sex and taking less precaution to not become pregnant, as well as the fact that abortion is less stigmatized and provided free by the state.

And of course it was easier to get laid in Ukraine--for you. In Vermont, there are tons of middle aged white guys, but there aren't a whole lot of AMERICAN middle aged white guys in Ukraine. You'd find the same result in a lot of countries, and it doesn't mean the culture is promiscuous as a WHOLE. It means that there, you're something rare and hard-to-find. In Vermont, you're just like everybody else. In addition, foreign men tend to frequent certain places, and women who are looking for a foreign man target those places. Ask a dude with a British accent or a French guy how easy it is for them to get laid in America. A sexy accent goes a long way, just like the idea that American man=cash money and/or green card goes a long way in a lot of places.

Edited October 15, 2010 by eekee

[slim 1,514]

American man=cash money and/or green card goes a long way in a lot of places.

And this whole time I was under the impression they thought American man = multiple Os. Silly me.

[Used to be broken 147]

I am simply observing that FSU women ARE in general more promiscuous than American women, so are most European women, not just the FSU.

You have been indoctrinated by the puritanical American propaganda machine !

FSU and European women and men are not promiscuous, they just aren't programmed to associate natural functions with negative thoughts the create ridiculous inhibitions and hangups.

[baron555 934]

You have been indoctrinated by the puritanical American propaganda machine !

FSU and European women and men are not promiscuous, they just aren't programmed to associate natural functions with negative thoughts the create ridiculous inhibitions and hangups.

Lots of truth to this.

I would hope that couples can be intimate with each other (in my book that can happen and not have sex) and can also freely and openly discuss sex (whether it be tonight or later). These discussions are part of a healthy relationship. If you are uncomfortable with this, then maybe it's that programming kicking in.

[Henykat 16]

This whole conversation is silly. Different people behave differently no matter where they are. But, I do think HIV positive persons will have some negative thoughts about natural functions without any added propaganda.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

And this whole time I was under the impression they thought American man = multiple Os. Silly me.

It does mean that.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

You have been indoctrinated by the puritanical American propaganda machine !

FSU and European women and men are not promiscuous, they just aren't programmed to associate natural functions with negative thoughts the create ridiculous inhibitions and hangups.

Very true. I stand corrected. They are NOT promiscuous, they are just very comfortable with their bodies, natural things like sex, etc. I think it is great. I will no longer call it promiscuous.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

No, I'm not implying that birth control pills are promiscuous or that pulling out isn't. I was pointing out why the rates of abortion are so high--lack of decent sex education and poor use of/lack of contraceptive devices. It's not that people have more sex. It's that people are having sex and taking less precaution to not become pregnant, as well as the fact that abortion is less stigmatized and provided free by the state.

And of course it was easier to get laid in Ukraine--for you. In Vermont, there are tons of middle aged white guys, but there aren't a whole lot of AMERICAN middle aged white guys in Ukraine. You'd find the same result in a lot of countries, and it doesn't mean the culture is promiscuous as a WHOLE. It means that there, you're something rare and hard-to-find. In Vermont, you're just like everybody else. In addition, foreign men tend to frequent certain places, and women who are looking for a foreign man target those places. Ask a dude with a British accent or a French guy how easy it is for them to get laid in America. A sexy accent goes a long way, just like the idea that American man=cash money and/or green card goes a long way in a lot of places.

In my experience FSU women are very well educated about sex. There also seemd to be a feeling (maybe not by all but by many to be sure) that a condom was an insult, particularly for someone you were monogomous with. Maybe not so much for one nighters. The women seem to offer plenty of enticing alternatives as to where to make deposits, so to speak, so men are encouraged to, shall we say, "cooperate". At any rate, there is also a casual attitude aomong women that consider abotion as the default birth control and lots of these women are at Orthodox mass each week (probably confession afterwards)

My evidence is entirely anecdotal which means it is at least partly true, but there is no denying the astoundingly high rate of abortion in the FSU. The AVERAGE FSU woman has more than 2 abortions in her life!

Edited October 15, 2010 by Gary and Alla

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

No, I'm not implying that birth control pills are promiscuous or that pulling out isn't. I was pointing out why the rates of abortion are so high--lack of decent sex education and poor use of/lack of contraceptive devices. It's not that people have more sex. It's that people are having sex and taking less precaution to not become pregnant, as well as the fact that abortion is less stigmatized and provided free by the state.

And of course it was easier to get laid in Ukraine--for you. In Vermont, there are tons of middle aged white guys, but there aren't a whole lot of AMERICAN middle aged white guys in Ukraine. You'd find the same result in a lot of countries, and it doesn't mean the culture is promiscuous as a WHOLE. It means that there, you're something rare and hard-to-find. In Vermont, you're just like everybody else. In addition, foreign men tend to frequent certain places, and women who are looking for a foreign man target those places. Ask a dude with a British accent or a French guy how easy it is for them to get laid in America. A sexy accent goes a long way, just like the idea that American man=cash money and/or green card goes a long way in a lot of places.

I am rare and hard to find anywhere, even here. I am prize for any woman! Alla is the luckiest gal Shawn knows!

The Brits and Frogs can have all the American girls they can get.

[AKguy 1]

I am rare and hard to find anywhere, even here. I am prize for any woman! Alla is the luckiest gal Shawn knows!

Yeah!

Wait. What?