Ukraine K-1 initial denial - next steps to fix

[birdman2010 0]

My fiancee received the following message from the embassy:

-------quote begins

ЦЕ АВТОМАТИЧНЕ ПОВІДОМЛЕННЯ.

БУДЬ ЛАСКА, НЕ ВІДПОВІДАЙТЕ НА ЦЮ ЕЛЕКТРОННУ АДРЕСУ!

Дякуємо за користування послугами Служби візової інформації.

Нижче наведено інформацію, що стосується Вашої співбесіди:

October 07 2010, 09:00

Місце проведення візової співбесіди:

Консульский відділ Посольства США (м. Київ, вул. Миколи Пимоненка 6).

Після проведення зазначеної співбесіди інформуємо Вас про наступне:

Вами як громадянкою України були надані усі необхідні

документи для отримання візи типу: К-1.

нами було детально вивчено Вашу біографію та іншу

представлену Вами документацію. Тому, вважаємо за доцільне

відмовити Вам в отриманні візи типу: К-1.

Так, як на теперішній час вже більше пів року Ви являєтесь безробітною громадянинкою України та не маєте матеріальної бази для виїзду за кордон.

Також, на наш погляд, спілкування з людиною в мережі інтернет та

шляхом телефонної лінії терміном не більше 6 місяців, не є достатнім для заснування сімейних відносин.

Але пропонуємо Вам звернутись до Консульского відділу Посольства США

в Україні через деякий час.

Також, повідомляємо, що відповідно до отриманої Вами карти 07 жовтня 2010 року Ви маєте можливість приїхати до Консульского відділу Посольства США

в Україні за отримання свого закордонного паспорта.

З найкращими побажаннями,

Служба візової інформації

-------quote ends

We met in October of 2009, and since January of 2010 we have spoken nearly every day, either over the phone or on Skype.

So their 6 months claim is not correct.

Also they make a statement about her being unemployed. I have been her nearly sole means of support since January.

What would you suggest that I do next? In their letter there is no mention of an appeal.

Do I need to fly over there to attend a second interview that we request?

Or can I send a letter stating how they got things wrong?

Or do I need to go over there, marry her, and then apply for a K-3 instead?

On a side note I've paid about $15,000 for three trips to Ukraine. The $450 I-129F filing fee. My fiancee is in Odessa. I paid $1,200 for her trip to Kiev for the visa interview, which was to include the $350 at-embassy visa fee (which for some reason the embassy did not collect - they told her she'd need to return later and pay if the visa was approved). I paid for her $900 computer, twice because it became fried by the power system there. And I've been the sole means of support for her since she is unemployed. Don't they know all this? Is a guy who provides an unemployed woman her sole means of support - does this mean anything to them at the embassy? Yes she's unemployed. Why do they mention that in their letter to her?

But I am curious that the embassy never sent me an email to me about the matter. On Friday I emailed them asking for status. Her interview was last Thursday. And I also mailed a faxed the following letter to them over the weekend:

-------------- quote of letter to embassy sent last weekend

Greetings,

Today I spoke with my fiancée [] (case []).

She explained to me what happened while she was in Kiev, with her medical clinic check and her interview at the embassy.

I am glad that she was able to have a key interview at your embassy, and I very much hope that you are able to approve her visa. We have been working toward this moment for several months now and we are both very hopeful for the future.

Thank you for your assistance.

---------------- end of quote

Anyway I feel like I've been sucker punched. Didn't they see that we had met in October of 2009, and that we've been chatting since January?

I could resend to them excerpts from the Skype logs. Here is the entry from January 20, 2010:

------------ from January 20 in Skype:

Hello Jonatan! Thank you very much four you flowers and candys. It is so beautiful and sweet. How are you, how are you rest in NEW Yourk

------------

So the six month statement they make in their letter is not accurate.

And also the documentation sent to them shows that we met on October 26, 2009 at a cafe in Odessa. I provided them the receipt for the cafe visit as well.

I know they are closed today for a holiday. But if I call them will they just tell me that cannot discuss cases over the phone?

What would you suggest we do next to reverse and fix this situation?

Edited October 11, 2010 by birdman2010

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I asked Alla to translate this for me, which she has done, but I have to run out for some business and will not have a chance to answer until later.

It is a strange situation, they are not saying they will return the petition to USCIS, that is good, but unusual. I will get back to you ASAP

Gary

[baron555 934]

I used Google translate, which did detect the Ukrainian language.

Seems that some information that you must have included in your petition struck a chord with them since they didn't even give her an interview. Is this correct, no interview? I understand that they didn't collect the visa fee, which normally they would the day of and just before the actual interview.

So, no interview?

If yes, then something must have been said by her that struck that chord with the CO.

If no, then there must have been some information about your relationship that struck the chord, something like, here's a man paying for everything for this woman and now he wants her to come to the US and get married. Maybe they are thinking that you are trying to buy a wife?!!

If you can I'd write them a long letter detailing your relationship, not how much money you are sending her (don't even mention) but describing your love for each other (if you can).

They are in the driver's seat and the onus is on you to prove you have a real relationship.

We were in a slightly similar predicament and were able to "prove" our relationship by sending more copies of communications and photos and I wrote a nice detailed letter describing our relationship time line as well as describing our emotions for each other and how that developed over the months.

If they took her passport and didn't return it, then you have a chance. If they never took it and never gave an interview, then I am not sure what chance you have. Good luck.

Remember the onus is on you to prove your relationship; obviously this hasn't been done to their satisfaction.

[Martyshk 137]

Ok..... I didn't read all of it, but the first things I read make me go #######????

####### does it have to do with the fact that she's been unemployed for 6 months? #######?

I'm gonna read it through to the end and see if there's any more BS in that letter.

"Також, на наш погляд, спілкування з людиною в мережі інтернет та

шляхом телефонної лінії терміном не більше 6 місяців, не є достатнім для заснування сімейних відносин."

This sentence leads me to believe that there's an issue of meeting??? Or proving you guys met?

Sorry for the gun-ho responses. I'm typing as I read. But it seems like they say you conversed through phone and internet for 6 months and that was it, so it's not sufficient to establish the relationship ties.

Edited October 11, 2010 by Мартышк+Мартышка

[VanessaTony 3,567]

You haven't filled in your timeline so I don't know when you filed. Assuming your process takes around 6 months to get an interview it means you applied in roughly April 2010.

In the eyes of the Immigration Officer I see this:

You met in October 2009 and suddenly 6 months later you decide that you've been in love long enough to apply for a K1 visa. It's now a year since you met... but at the time of filing it was a very short time which can be very suspicious.

She has not been employed for 6 months suggesting she is only marrying you for money or your financial support. I think the expatriation stuff is because she has little to no money/possessions and again I think they think she's being paid or getting some financial gain out of marrying you.

You may be able to get them to reconsider by showing them evidence of your further visits. Evidence of buying her laptops etc but right now it looks like you're paying to import the girl.. that's how I think they see it... that she's not contributing anything to the relationship and possibly using you for the money.

I have no idea how to fix it. You've visited her 3 times now I see, so you could re-file. It's been a year so that extra time will help. the chat logs and phone records...

Sorry I can't be of more help.

Good luck.

[SMR 368]

My Ukrainian is somewhat limited but I think that I understand the email. However, I have a couple thoughts and a couple questions for you since I'm not familiar with your case.

A K-1 applicant is not required to have a material basis for expatriation. This seems to be in error on their end. She needs an affidavit of support from you (the I-134). If you have already sent this, it is just their error. However, as has been mentioned, it's often seen suspiciously if you are paying her large amounts of money. Don't mention it. It won't help your case. You just need to prove that you can and are willing to support her emigration and new life in the US.

A receipt at a cafe is mostly useless. Hopefully, you have other evidence like plane tickets, a visa (although you don't need one to Ukraine, correct?), hotel records, etc. Also, other forms of secondary evidence might be helpful like photographs of you two together in Ukraine, records of things you did together. I suppose a cafe receipt fits into this category but on its own it means nothing.

When you say you took 3 trips to Ukraine, were these trips to see her specifically or were there other purposes to the trip? If you have taken 3 trips to see her in the past year, I don't see why they've had a problem with the validity of your relationship. You just need to retell the story of that relationship.

And remember, it's not about money. The money should only come up on the I-134. After that, it is about spending time together and communication. That's the story that you tell.

[VanessaTony 3,567]

I asked Alla to translate this for me, which she has done, but I have to run out for some business and will not have a chance to answer until later.

It is a strange situation, they are not saying they will return the petition to USCIS, that is good, but unusual. I will get back to you ASAP

Gary

Could this be a NOID? Maybe it's a blue slip of sorts? I think they might have a chance for a re-interview perhaps?? Do they do that in the Ukraine? Would you suggest the OP try and make the next interview?

[birdman2010 0]

Hi.

Why are they mentioning that she is unemployed? Technically she's self employed, but with no clients the past couple of months. And we noted "self employed" on the relevant form.

They mention "Internet chatting" but Skype w/webcam conversations are of a different quality than plain text and phone-only.

Over the phone we can barely understand each other. But the webcam conversations are of a much higher quality & fidelity.

She did not initiate wanting to come over. I asked her and she agree to come as my fiancee.

In our most recent Skype conversation she said that she did not even want to think about a denial, and we are both upset at the initial denial.

But, the embassy is closed today. So today I'm thinking about a letter I can fax to them. A letter that includes exceprts from earlier Skype logs showing that we have been talking for more than six months. We met in October. We started talking in earnest in January after I came for a visit. Then about April we filed for the I-129F. So yes it was April when I filed the I-129F. But we have been talking since January very regularly, online, via webcam, via SMS, via phone, via packages exchanged both ways, and via greeting cards exchanged both ways, and via flowers from me to her several times.

I helped her visit Doneskt to try to find work - should I mention this?

I helped her join a professional society of lawyers in Odessa - should I mention this?

I sent moneygrams since January, and a debit card that she started using in May - should I mention this?

Should I mention that I have been her primary means of support since January - or is this not helpful to mention?

I can mention that we were both very hopeful regarding her hopeful impending arrival. I can mention that their six month claim (only six months of chatting) is not correct.

I could mention that, as per one reply that "...a K-1 applicant is not required to have a material basis for expatriation..."

I could mention that our conversations have not been trivial. She has seen how I live my life, via MANY videos I created & shared for her on youtube & blip.tv. I could mention how she saw my birds and how she was delighted and intrigued. I could mention that I was the initiator of her coming over and that when she agreed - that is when we decided to file for the I-129F.

Anyway, I'll work on the letter today, and I'll fax it tonight so they have it on Tuesday morning Kiev time.

I don't know why they are concerned about her being unemployed. But if you all believe I should not mention the material support I've provided I won't.

Also on Tuesday in addition to the fax I plan on calling my Senators and congressman to see who's the best to help - if that will help.

They do still have her passport. The interview took place. They did take her passport. They did not take the fee. In the interview they told her she'd have to return and pay the fee if the visa was approved (even though she's in Odessa & she'd have to fly back again).

We met by happenstance about a year ago. We met again in January and that is when our romantic relationship began. Then in April she said yes to coming as my fiancee. That is when I filed the I-129F. And now we are in October again.

Edited October 11, 2010 by birdman2010

[baron555 934]

Hi.

Why are they mentioning that she is unemployed? Technically she's self employed, but with no clients the past couple of months. And we noted "self employed" on the relevant form.

They mention "Internet chatting" but Skype w/webcam conversations are of a different quality than plain text and phone-only.

Over the phone we can barely understand each other. But the webcam conversations are of a much higher quality & fidelity.

She did not initiate wanting to come over. I asked her and she agree to come as my fiancee.

In our most recent Skype conversation she said that she did not even want to think about a denial, and we are both upset at the initial denial.

But, the embassy is closed today. So today I'm thinking about a letter I can fax to them. A letter that includes exceprts from earlier Skype logs showing that we have been talking for more than six months. We met in October. We started talking in earnest in January after I came for a visit. Then about April we filed for the I-129F. So yes it was April when I filed the I-129F. But we have been talking since January very regularly, online, via webcam, via SMS, via phone, via packages exchanged both ways, and via greeting cards exchanged both ways, and via flowers from me to her several times.

I helped her visit Doneskt to try to find work - should I mention this? NO

I helped her join a professional society of lawyers in Odessa - should I mention this? NO

I sent moneygrams since January, and a debit card that she started using in May - should I mention this? NO NO NO

Should I mention that I have been her primary means of support since January - or is this not helpful to mention? NO X 100

I can mention that we were both very hopeful regarding her hopeful impending arrival. I can mention that their six month claim (only six months of chatting) is not correct.

I could mention that, as per one reply that "...a K-1 applicant is not required to have a material basis for expatriation..."

It doesn't matter what you've read. The Onus is on you to prove you have a real relationshp. They can make whatever decision they want...they are actually trained to vet out suspect relationishps.....Ukraine is an "easy" Embassy, so for them to deny your visa says that they see something very wrong with whatever information was presented.

You never mentioned, did she have an interview or not? If yes, then what questions was she asked and how did she respond?

I could mention that our conversations have not been trivial. She has seen how I live my life, via MANY videos I created & shared for her on youtube & blip.tv. I could mention how she saw my birds and how she was delighted and intrigued. I could mention that I was the initiator of her coming over and that when she agreed - that is when we decided to file for the I-129F.

You need to prove you two have a real relationshp; not that she likes your birds. But yes that is a very small part of the larger picture of your relationshp.

Anyway, I'll work on the letter today, and I'll fax it tonight so they have it on Tuesday morning Kiev time.

I don't know why they are concerned about her being unemployed. But if you all believe I should not mention the material support I've provided I won't.

Also on Tuesday in addition to the fax I plan on calling my Senators and congressman to see who's the best to help - if that will help.

They do still have her passport. The interview took place. They did take her passport. They did not take the fee. In the interview they told her she'd have to return and pay the fee if the visa was approved (even though she's in Odessa & she'd have to fly back again).

We met by happenstance about a year ago. We met again in January and that is when our romantic relationship began. Then in April she said yes to coming as my fiancee. That is when I filed the I-129F. And now we are in October again.

OK, them maybe something she said at the interview. Dont' mention anything about money matters, nada, nada, nada.

Prove your relationshp. Tell them about your detailed conversations as they relate to two people falling in love and now wanting to marry. Paint the picture and only that picture. You have a chance since they have the passport still.

[VanessaTony 3,567]

I get that, I do. But you're asking the US to consider this an "in love" relationship after just 6 months of chatting online and a fleeting meeting in person, or as you said, only 4 months actually of "intense" chatting. It just seems awfully quick. Perhaps the proof that it's still ongoing will help but to them I think they just think it's "lust" not love and not worth of an immigration visa.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

What I get from Alla's translation and explanation...

You met in October 2009, but not since. Correct?

Essentially they are handling this as a "no harm, no foul" and basically gave her a "pass" on the interview. Very strange to be sure. There is no requirement she be employed now or ever BUT how did she answer the question of who is paying for the trip for her to the USA. Herself? It seems there are so vagaries in the answers and they do not like that. They do not care if she is unemployed, but they MAY care if she is unemployed but has money to buy a ticket to the US. At any rate, that does not appear to be the main concern.

As others have mentioned, it seems to be that you met in October and suddenly you are ready to get married. Not enough evidence to justify "making a family" to translate directly.

There is no need or means to appeal because there is nothing TO appeal. It would appear that you could simply call and make a new appointment and try again. But I would gather other supporting information first. YES, document ANYthing and EVERYthing about your relationship. If you paid for her trips, show that. If you bought her a computer, show that. ANYthing will be helpful. I brought a huge amount of evidence to the interview and never used most of it. But let THEM decide what they need. They need more than you gave them. How much more? I don;t know. Give all of it to them and let them decide.

You say you have been her means of support. Did you document it? You say you made three trips to Ukraine. But you do not say if it was to meet with her. If it was...document it. If it wasn't, then it does not count for anything in this case. also be advised that showing evidence that you have sent her lots of money MAY NOT work in your favor. In some consulates it is absolute poison. I do not think it is in Kiev. But if the MAIN evidence you have is you sending money to her...it is NOT a good thing, even in Kiev. I had evidence that I sent money to Alla, but also evidence that it was used for English lessons for our youngest son, I made 4 trips to visit Alla in 6 months PLUS went to the interview, more than 1000 emails between us, stacks of telephone bills, receipts that I paid for our oldest son's tuiton in Moscow, receipts for the purchase of 2 computers HERE given as gifts to Alla and our oldest son...not that I had just sent large amounts of cash. I had evidence I had her education evaluated her in the US for her future education needs, evidence we had applied to a degree program, evidence we had applied for a private grant for education, evidence that I had contacted our local public schools about ESL for our youngest son, evidence we had shipped her belongings to the US in anticipation of her moving. Basically evidence that we were living and functioning as a FAMILY in waiting. Most of this they did not look at it in any detail, just through the window at the counter "And this is...., and here is....and here is our photo album..." Finally, their response was like "OK, I surrender!" No questions asked, and I never even got to the bottom of the box full of evidence.

If you could attend the interview (I always recommend that) then do so.

That aside, and that is about all there is to say about the consulate letter, let me just mention a couple other things. You analyze this for what it is worth.

1. A trip to Odessa is in no way in the $1200 range unless you want it to be. Even including the visa fees and medical exam fees. Did she fly to Kiev?

2. I used a US purchased computer for two years in Odessa and had no power issues. We occasionally lost power altogether, but there were no other power issues. Our son is in his 4th year using his US purchased computer in Moscow for college, no issues. My wife has been using a Ukrainian purchased computer here for two years...no issues. She also has a US purchased computer she uses on visits to Ukraine...no power problems. Just FYI And for a little more than $900 you could buy a computer here and TAKE it to her in Odessa. Computers are expnsive in Ukraine, no doubt. That s whY I buy them here and take them there. I bring them in as "mine" and then, oops, I forget to take them home. Dammit, don't you hate when that happens?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I get that, I do. But you're asking the US to consider this an "in love" relationship after just 6 months of chatting online and a fleeting meeting in person, or as you said, only 4 months actually of "intense" chatting. It just seems awfully quick. Perhaps the proof that it's still ongoing will help but to them I think they just think it's "lust" not love and not worth of an immigration visa.

Oddly enough, that would usually be enough for Kiev. I would say that he has not provided enough evidence of "intense chatting". He should also include evidence of the other things he says he did. They do not "assume" that because she does not have a job that you are her source of income...but beware that two edged sword! For every piece of evidence you sent her money, there should be even more that there were other aspects to the relationship

[baron555 934]

Oddly enough, that would usually be enough for Kiev. I would say that he has not provided enough evidence of "intense chatting". He should also include evidence of the other things he says he did. They do not "assume" that because she does not have a job that you are her source of income...but beware that two edged sword! For every piece of evidence you sent her money, there should be even more that there were other aspects to the relationship

What we don't know is what kind of evidence he may have sent in as part of front-loading the petition?

What kind of evidence he sent his fiancee for her interview?

What were the interview questions and what were her answers?

Again, Ukraine is usually an "easy" Embassy, so for this to occur, something very different or very strange must have occured.

[Mehmet&Elena 20]

Hello all,

After reading this series of post, I have become a little worried about my situation. My fiancee and I met online. We atarted meeting on skype everyday, chatting for hours. I made my first trip to Ukraine end of March. It happened to also be her birthday. I was only there for one week. Elena came to visit me in the United States. First it was only going to be for three weeks. However we extended her stay and she lived with me for 3+ months. During this time we visited my sister and her family in Boston Mass. We returned to Ukraine together in Septemeber. We celebrated my birthday in Ukrain with her family and friends.

To my surprise, while Elena was here visiting me a person from the her city Newspaper did an article about our relationship. They interviewed her on Skype. The article was about a full page with one photo of us together.

I mailed my I-129F on the 4th of October. So it has only been 7 months. Do you see a potential problem with the interview?

[baron555 934]

Hello all,

After reading this series of post, I have become a little worried about my situation. My fiancee and I met online. We atarted meeting on skype everyday, chatting for hours. I made my first trip to Ukraine end of March. It happened to also be her birthday. I was only there for one week. Elena came to visit me in the United States. First it was only going to be for three weeks. However we extended her stay and she lived with me for 3+ months. During this time we visited my sister and her family in Boston Mass. We returned to Ukraine together in Septemeber. We celebrated my birthday in Ukrain with her family and friends.

To my surprise, while Elena was here visiting me a person from the her city Newspaper did an article about our relationship. They interviewed her on Skype. The article was about a full page with one photo of us together.

I mailed my I-129F on the 4th of October. So it has only been 7 months. Do you see a potential problem with the interview?

Please please please, don't derail this thread. Your case in not unique and you are fine. My wife and I corrsponded for three months, met for 10 days and then 10 months later she had her interview. Never was there a question about our relatioship relative to the time lenght. You either have a real relationship or you do not. Period.