"We are now a socialist country"

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Ironically speech protected by tenure. Tenure allows teachers to speak up against BS or idiotic parents and not fear their jobs.

I could tell my manager to go #### him self and ..... yet can acquire a new job without much drama. Due to the nature of teaching, a teacher who loses their job for something like that, would basically have to quit the industry.

You actually bring up a good point. These teachers that remained silent, fear for their jobs, knowing that they can be fired without any reason, while public school teachers have certain protections against being fired thanks to the unions. Of course, people can point out the problems where a union teacher who should've been fired, doesn't, but overall, union protections have been beneficial for a career that has long been under appreciated and underpaid.

[^_^ 5,021]

You actually bring up a good point. These teachers that remained silent, fear for their jobs, knowing that they can be fired without any reason, while public school teachers have certain protections against being fired thanks to the unions. Of course, people can point out the problems where a union teacher who should've been fired, doesn't, but overall, union protections have been beneficial for a career that has long been under appreciated and underpaid.

Heracles or I could publicly argue with our managers and not fear for our jobs. Why? Because if they do fire us, we'll find other jobs. Firing us is really not much of a threat.

So why is it such a threat for this group of people?

Because there are so few private schools! The overwhelming majority of teachers teach in the public system. Getting your foot in the door in the public system (here in NJ) is extremely difficult, unless one is willing to start off as a sub or aide. The teachers at the private school we're talking about have full time jobs with 401Ks and health benefits. If they were to try to look for a public school job that provides them and their families with continuity in healthcare, they very simply could not. So the real problem isn't that they don't have a union... the real problem is the near-monopoly the public system has over education. If these teachers had the opportunity to go elsewhere, I have no doubt they would speak up. But they know they have no options.

[Heracles 417]

And you know me, I am last to support irresponsible unions, yet for teaching, it has its place.

Teaching is the second or third most stressful job following emergency workers. Surely they need some sort of legitimate protection from a job that I can only imagine how draining it is, with little in adequate compensation.

[Heracles 417]

Heracles or I could publicly argue with our managers and not fear for our jobs. Why? Because if they do fire us, we'll find other jobs. Firing us is really not much of a threat.

So why is it such a threat for this group of people?

Because there are so few private schools! The overwhelming majority of teachers teach in the public system. Getting your foot in the door in the public system (here in NJ) is extremely difficult, unless one is willing to start off as a sub or aide. The teachers at the private school we're talking about have full time jobs with 401Ks and health benefits. If they were to try to look for a public school job that provides them and their families with continuity in healthcare, they very simply could not. So the real problem isn't that they don't have a union... the real problem is the near-monopoly the public system has over education. If these teachers had the opportunity to go elsewhere, I have no doubt they would speak up. But they know they have no options.

Private schools will not work in the US unless vouchers are implemented, which is not going to happen because Dems disagree with it. Funding goes with the student in AUS schools, the result of this speaks for itself. You also have an antiquated school system based on counties, which should really be managed on a state level. Charter schools have their place, but I strongly disagree, as does the evidence, that they are a silver bullet.

The quality of education comes down to money. That is, the money pumped into it and the wealth of the student's families. People can blame the teachers, the unions, the system until the cows come home; yet at the end of the day, socioeconomics has a direct correlation with education performance.

Edited September 28, 2010 by Heracles

[^_^ 5,021]

Private schools will not work in the US unless vouchers are implemented, which is not going to happen because Dems disagree with it. Funding goes with the student in AUS schools, the result of this speaks for itself. You also have an antiquated school system based on counties, which should really be managed on a state level. Charter schools have their place, but I strongly disagree, as does the evidence, that they are a silver bullet.

Counties? In NJ, it's by town. Even worse.

I agree with all the points you've made.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Heracles or I could publicly argue with our managers and not fear for our jobs. Why? Because if they do fire us, we'll find other jobs. Firing us is really not much of a threat.

So why is it such a threat for this group of people?

Because there are so few private schools! The overwhelming majority of teachers teach in the public system. Getting your foot in the door in the public system (here in NJ) is extremely difficult, unless one is willing to start off as a sub or aide. The teachers at the private school we're talking about have full time jobs with 401Ks and health benefits. If they were to try to look for a public school job that provides them and their families with continuity in healthcare, they very simply could not. So the real problem isn't that they don't have a union... the real problem is the near-monopoly the public system has over education. If these teachers had the opportunity to go elsewhere, I have no doubt they would speak up. But they know they have no options.

In general, I think that holds true, but not in every job sector. If public school teachers didn't have unions, they would not have the kinds of pay, benefits and protections that they currently enjoy. Unions were born out of need in various job sectors. There has long been talk of forming a union for the video game industry. It wasn't too long ago that the biggest developer at the time, EA, was expecting their employees to put in extra time without any compensation I think because of California's labor laws, the employees had a legal avenue for filing grievance. However, in right-to-work states, labor laws are pretty lax.

[^_^ 5,021]

If you're an "exempt" employee you don't get overtime for extra work anyway. But if you work for a company that wants to hold on to you, they'll make sure you get paid in other ways.

Edited September 28, 2010 by Legacy member

[Heracles 417]

Counties? In NJ, it's by town. Even worse.

I agree with all the points you've made.

It's the same deal here, you have counties and puny cities within the county; all with their own mini education system. How efficient is that? Yet pool it all together on a state level and not only will a state be able to realize economies of scale, but both the teachers and ultimately the students will benefit.

[Heracles 417]

If you're an "exempt" employee you don't get overtime for extra work anyway. But if you work for a company that wants to hold on to you, they'll make sure you get paid in other ways.

Companies are a different ball game from important and critical social services. Can we learn from them? Yes, but we cannot just implement everything they do. Many for example use UPS and claim see how efficient they are, which they are. Yet it costs $8 to send a letter to my neighbor versus 43 cents at USPS.

Private schools are great and numerous people I know attended them, with great results. To be great though, on top of the state funding the school received per student [$7.5K], many paid over $11K in fees a year. Almost all got into college of course and received the who nine yards in terms of education.

The documentary from Goofenheim, which Oprah and others beat on about over the weekend was extremely disappointing and frustrating to watch, yep even the snippets. Not only did they blame the unions for the perils of Americas inner-cities, which is interesting for Dems, but pathetically and disingenuously put the blame squarely on teachers working in these war zone like areas; all while promoting a charter school agenda. They mentioned other countries beating the US, since it now ranks 25th, but did not spend 5 seconds analyzing these countries.

Edited September 28, 2010 by Heracles

[one...two...tree 2,762]

If you're an "exempt" employee you don't get overtime for extra work anyway. But if you work for a company that wants to hold on to you, they'll make sure you get paid in other ways.

Most game industry jobs are salaried, so there is not overtime so to speak. However, because of the grievance filed by EA employees, most of the other game companies started offering Comp Time. I understand and agree that competition and demand help, but for many labor markets, those elements don't really exist or don't apply. With public schools, for example, they are divided up into districts and the teachers are employees of the district. So if a teacher wanted to go where the work conditions are better for them personally, they'd most likely need to look outside of their district.

In the town I'm currently living in, competition is less a factor and demand probably remains more constant, making it less likely that pay, benefits, or job security are driven solely by those factors.

[Heracles 417]

Every school district in the country is cutting back, so what chance do teachers have of getting any meaningful salary? Most of my wife's friends that are teachers rent an apartment, with many over an hour away, and have no chance of every buying a house in the area they teach. How ethical and insulting is that?

In contrast, my cousin and her husband are both teachers in AUS. They recently purchased a house 5 minutes walk from the beach, in a city where the median house price is $500K>. Without even bringing stats in the equation which prove this, where does one think public schools and students are performing better? In a place where teachers are scraping by or in a state based education system where teachers start on $50K? Heavily unionised too might I add, though with zero charter schools.

Edited September 28, 2010 by Heracles

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Condone it 200%.

The bullshit that this piece of ####### signed into law does nothing but harm small businesses and causes a nightmare in things that must be complied with, it cuts into the bottom line of these companies.

Of course Obamacare was never meant to help people at all. It was for elitist jack asses to find a way to cause the system to fail entirely and for the government to get complete control.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Every school district in the country is cutting back, so what chance do teachers have of getting any meaningful salary? Most of my wife's friends that are teachers rent an apartment, with many over an hour away, and have no chance of every buying a house in the area they teach. How ethical and insulting is that?

In contrast, my cousin and her husband are both teachers in AUS. They recently purchased a house 5 minutes walk from the beach, in a city where the median house price is $500K>. Without even bringing stats in the equation which prove this, where does one think public schools and students are performing better? In a place where teachers are scraping by or in a state based education system where teachers start on $50K? Heavily unionised too might I add, though with zero charter schools.

Are you suggesting that Australia doesn't have teachers' unions?

[Heracles 417]

The bullshit that this piece of ####### signed into law does nothing but harm small businesses and causes a nightmare in things that must be complied with, it cuts into the bottom line of these companies.

Of course Obamacare was never meant to help people at all. It was for elitist jack asses to find a way to cause the system to fail entirely and for the government to get complete control.

NHS is better but folks like yourself refuse anything government. When factoring in the anti-government sentiment by the batshit crazies, the current system proposed is the best they have. Surprise surprise it's expensive. Didn't see that one coming, considering nothing the private sector does is of quality and cheap.

Considering 12% of Australians are self employed versus the 6% here, I think I have a better idea of which system works better for the small business - NHS. Why is it better? A small business pays little to nothing for NHS, it comes out of everyone's' taxes like Medicare.

Are you suggesting that Australia doesn't have teachers' unions?

No, I am saying that contrary to the faux propaganda made out to be a legitimate documentary known as Waiting for Superman, Aus and pretty much every other country with a better performing school system has a union, and most with no charter schools.

Edited September 28, 2010 by Heracles

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Yet you are an expert on so many things relating to employment.

Expert? No. Informed? Yes. I bet you don't know half of what is being paid on your behalf by your employer.