Ukraine power struggle

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Other than Alaska, the US doesn't border Russia like Ukraine does, sans no dual citizenship. Tsar Putin has an entire Duma full of brainwashed Stalin loving idiots who would love nothing better than to regain Tsarist Russia's former borders. The brainwashed peasant slaves in the Kremlin were drooling at the mouth when they thought Lukashenko was going to hand Belarus over to Russia on a silver platter. They even supported the Tsar Putin created NASHI Hitler Youth Organization when they were assualting the Estonian and Swedish ambassador's over the relocation of the Bronze Occupier.

As far as Western Ukrainians giving it a go on their own, yes they would need help from the West like investments and loans. But better that struggle than held back by a bunch of descendants of imported brainwashed Russians. Let Eastern Ukraine tow the Kremlin line and kiss Kremlin #######. Western Ukraine leans towards the west like it always has. Eastern Ukrainians aka descendants of imported brainwashed Russian serfs have much more in common with Russia, the Kremlin, and dictatorships and would probably be much happier being a part of Russia then an independent and democratic Ukraine. Unlike the brainwashed Kremlin ####### kissing East, Western Ukrainians deserve a chance to join mainstream Europe.

Borders have nothing to do with this. Ukraine does not allow dual citizenship under orders of Yushenko with ANY country. That is not the reaction of a FREE country or a government that respects freedom. You missed the point, if the United States were to declare that YOU could not have dual citizenship with ANY country, you would cry long and loud that your freedom was being infringed. You would say "What is the US afraid of?" and you would be correct.

As for the other, it seems that anyone that may not agree with the separatist, "kick the Russians in the balls anytime you can" school of thought are "tsar Putin idiots" This is even a weaker argument. They are people with a difference of opinion just as Americans have a difference of opinion on issues. They are not "idiots". I will not continue such a discussion as you refer to 20 million people or so as such. If you want to argue the issue, that is fine. If your argument is nothing but personal insults, it is simply hollow and you have already lost. I will declare victory and move along.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Borders have nothing to do with this. Ukraine does not allow dual citizenship under orders of Yushenko with ANY country. That is not the reaction of a FREE country or a government that respects freedom. You missed the point, if the United States were to declare that YOU could not have dual citizenship with ANY country, you would cry long and loud that your freedom was being infringed. You would say "What is the US afraid of?" and you would be correct.

As for the other, it seems that anyone that may not agree with the separatist, "kick the Russians in the balls anytime you can" school of thought are "tsar Putin idiots" This is even a weaker argument. They are people with a difference of opinion just as Americans have a difference of opinion on issues. They are not "idiots". I will not continue such a discussion as you refer to 20 million people or so as such. If you want to argue the issue, that is fine. If your argument is nothing but personal insults, it is simply hollow and you have already lost. I will declare victory and move along.

"I will declare victory and move along"....

You do that Gary.

If the US decided not to allow dual citizenship...good for them. Yushenko made that law, and he made it for good reason. He saw how the Baltic country's protected their arses from Tsar Putin in regards to "dual citizenship" when Putin wanted to hand out Russian passports to the descendants of the Russian occupiers living in the Baltic country's. Several members of the Kremlin elite made statements in regards to Russia's claim on the Crim...and they were pro-Russian comments, not pro - Ukrainian.

As far as 20 million people having a "difference of opinion" vs "brainwashed idiots"...the former is a nice politically correct way of putting it, and the latter is a harsh but realistic way of putting it IMO. Ukraine owes Russia nothing. If anything Russia should be apologizing to Ukraine for all the misery it's brought upon it for the last four century's. Russia was good for deporting Ukrainians and then repopulating Eastern Ukraine with it's brainwashed peasant serfs.

Why would anyone who has half a brain want to follow the lead of a country that makes a sham of democracy, and makes it a habit of murdering journalist, human rights workers, attorney's, and anyone else it deems a threat to it's dictatorship aka Kremlin ?

Like I said, let Eastern Ukrainians reap what they sow. Let them tow the Kremlin line, let them lose any chance of democracy and freedoms they had before Yanukovich was put into power. They deserve it for voting that criminal in power. Yanukovich is going to help bring them back to the days of typical Kremlin authoritarianism and they will love him for this for the fact it's in their blood. Even their ROC Patriarch Kirill is a KGB stooge. Western Ukrainians on the other hand are not so easy to brainwash. They live to be free, not to be under the boot of some criminal Kremlin puppet who would sell out Ukraine in a heart beat if he thought it would bring him cheaper Russian gas and keep him in power.

[1HappyGuy 45]

Why would anyone who has half a brain want to follow the lead of a country that makes a sham of democracy, and makes it a habit of murdering journalist, human rights workers, attorney's, and anyone else it deems a threat to it's dictatorship aka Kremlin ?

Like I said, let Eastern Ukrainians reap what they sow. Let them tow the Kremlin line, let them lose any chance of democracy and freedoms they had before Yanukovich was put into power. They deserve it for voting that criminal in power. Yanukovich is going to help bring them back to the days of typical Kremlin authoritarianism and they will love him for this for the fact it's in their blood. Even their ROC Patriarch Kirill is a KGB stooge. Western Ukrainians on the other hand are not so easy to brainwash. They live to be free, not to be under the boot of some criminal Kremlin puppet who would sell out Ukraine in a heart beat if he thought it would bring him cheaper Russian gas and keep him in power.

I think you said it, those with half a brain voted in Yanukovich.

As far as to the voting, it was Yanukovich and his buddies that changes voting requirements allowing him to steal the election like he did in the election prior to the Orange Revolution. I find it interesting that the powers that he pushed to restrict the President are the same ones he just dismissed. It's like my thread title, it's all about power struggle. Ukraine has a criminal head of state that thinks like a criminal, so he's looking to steal everything he can including the rights of Ukrainian citizens.

I agree that Yushenko made some big mistakes, the biggest is not realizing his ego was standing in the way of blocking Yanukovich from grabbing the power. Now he is a non factor and Timoshenko (sp?) is in fear of her life from Yanukovich.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

"I will declare victory and move along"....

You do that Gary.

If the US decided not to allow dual citizenship...good for them. Yushenko made that law, and he made it for good reason. He saw how the Baltic country's protected their arses from Tsar Putin in regards to "dual citizenship" when Putin wanted to hand out Russian passports to the descendants of the Russian occupiers living in the Baltic country's. Several members of the Kremlin elite made statements in regards to Russia's claim on the Crim...and they were pro-Russian comments, not pro - Ukrainian.

As far as 20 million people having a "difference of opinion" vs "brainwashed idiots"...the former is a nice politically correct way of putting it, and the latter is a harsh but realistic way of putting it IMO. Ukraine owes Russia nothing. If anything Russia should be apologizing to Ukraine for all the misery it's brought upon it for the last four century's. Russia was good for deporting Ukrainians and then repopulating Eastern Ukraine with it's brainwashed peasant serfs.

Why would anyone who has half a brain want to follow the lead of a country that makes a sham of democracy, and makes it a habit of murdering journalist, human rights workers, attorney's, and anyone else it deems a threat to it's dictatorship aka Kremlin ?

Like I said, let Eastern Ukrainians reap what they sow. Let them tow the Kremlin line, let them lose any chance of democracy and freedoms they had before Yanukovich was put into power. They deserve it for voting that criminal in power. Yanukovich is going to help bring them back to the days of typical Kremlin authoritarianism and they will love him for this for the fact it's in their blood. Even their ROC Patriarch Kirill is a KGB stooge. Western Ukrainians on the other hand are not so easy to brainwash. They live to be free, not to be under the boot of some criminal Kremlin puppet who would sell out Ukraine in a heart beat if he thought it would bring him cheaper Russian gas and keep him in power.

Thanks for the response. In another thread in "religion and Politics" you said ...

Throw is a few bogus WMD's, invade a country, and then make up your own NAZI Gestapo and call it "Homeland Security". Don't forget while your at it, make sure your buddy's get billions of dollars in no bid contracts.

But it is OK if Yushenko does it? Homeland security is Nazi Gestapo stuff unless it is a Yushenko (a good friend of George Bush and one who got billions from Bush) doing it for HIS country. Yushenko really did start wire-tapping in Ukraine and none of this silly "kind-sorta" George Bush wiretapping...I'm talking the thick industrial waste type. Your arguments are completely arbitrary. If you like someone, they are good and everyone against them is bad (or idiots or brainwashed) and if you do not like someone they are bad but it does not necessarily extend to their friends who do the same thing or worse and who get billions of our dollars from them, IF you think that friend is "good" or if they are, at least, against someone else you think is bad, or worse, or.... whatever.

So far it seems like I surmise from your argument...

Putin is bad. Bush is bad. Yushenko is good. You call what Bush does Gestapo tactics but say it would be OK if he said you can't have dual citizenship with any country?

Ukrainians voted for the President they have now, they voted for Yushenko. Like Obama, Yushenko did not do what he said he would. We are STILL in those other countries we invaded, Russia and Vladmir Putin are not. Yushenko did not deliver, so the people voted him out. THAT is freedom. It is not the first election that determines if a country is free...it is the SECOND election! Electing Yushenko is not what makes Ukraine a free country...KICKING HIM OUT makes them free! Yanukovich can look forward to the same if he doesn't perform. Come to think of it, that already happened once. I would say, given the events of the past 19 years, that Ukraine is a free country and enjoys that freedom. I trust Ukrainians to make good decisions for Ukrainians. I do not think people in Western Ukraine are idiots or even George Bush Toadies or any other pejoritive you may coin. They have a difference of political opinion which is in the minority at the present time.

Can I take a wild guess and say you voted Democrat?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I think you said it, those with half a brain voted in Yanukovich.

As far as to the voting, it was Yanukovich and his buddies that changes voting requirements allowing him to steal the election like he did in the election prior to the Orange Revolution. I find it interesting that the powers that he pushed to restrict the President are the same ones he just dismissed. It's like my thread title, it's all about power struggle. Ukraine has a criminal head of state that thinks like a criminal, so he's looking to steal everything he can including the rights of Ukrainian citizens.

I agree that Yushenko made some big mistakes, the biggest is not realizing his ego was standing in the way of blocking Yanukovich from grabbing the power. Now he is a non factor and Timoshenko (sp?) is in fear of her life from Yanukovich.

And so who is at fault? Yushenko or Yanukovich? Yushenko completely BLOWS the opportunity he had and allows the door open for Yanukovich and it is Yanukovich's fault. Who elected Ronald Reagan? The people or Jimmy Carter? Obama makes it possible for someone like this woman in South Carolina...the witchcraft wacko, to get elected but you will say it is the people's fault? If a Sarah Palin could ever be elected President, it would only be because someone like Obama went first. The phrase "not a hard act to follow" comes to mind.

Yushenko completely steps on his d*ck for 5 years but you expect people to vote for him again? I was very much a Yushenko kind of guy in 2004. That changed. But then, I am not brainwashed or an idiot.

[1HappyGuy 45]

Hey, don't get me wrong. The people of Ukraine are to blame for the current President. The difference is that Yanukovich changed some of the voting rules prior to the election and managed to steal this election. Then he pads the court with his guys and then challenges the very laws that he fought for after the Orange Revolution and gets them thrown out. Thus, placing him in the dictatorial position he coveted.

You still think that Ukraine is free like that?

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Thanks for the response. In another thread in "religion and Politics" you said ...

Throw is a few bogus WMD's, invade a country, and then make up your own NAZI Gestapo and call it "Homeland Security". Don't forget while your at it, make sure your buddy's get billions of dollars in no bid contracts.

But it is OK if Yushenko does it? Homeland security is Nazi Gestapo stuff unless it is a Yushenko (a good friend of George Bush and one who got billions from Bush) doing it for HIS country. Yushenko really did start wire-tapping in Ukraine and none of this silly "kind-sorta" George Bush wiretapping...I'm talking the thick industrial waste type. Your arguments are completely arbitrary. If you like someone, they are good and everyone against them is bad (or idiots or brainwashed) and if you do not like someone they are bad but it does not necessarily extend to their friends who do the same thing or worse and who get billions of our dollars from them, IF you think that friend is "good" or if they are, at least, against someone else you think is bad, or worse, or.... whatever.

So far it seems like I surmise from your argument...

Putin is bad. Bush is bad. Yushenko is good. You call what Bush does Gestapo tactics but say it would be OK if he said you can't have dual citizenship with any country?

Ukrainians voted for the President they have now, they voted for Yushenko. Like Obama, Yushenko did not do what he said he would. We are STILL in those other countries we invaded, Russia and Vladmir Putin are not. Yushenko did not deliver, so the people voted him out. THAT is freedom. It is not the first election that determines if a country is free...it is the SECOND election! Electing Yushenko is not what makes Ukraine a free country...KICKING HIM OUT makes them free! Yanukovich can look forward to the same if he doesn't perform. Come to think of it, that already happened once. I would say, given the events of the past 19 years, that Ukraine is a free country and enjoys that freedom. I trust Ukrainians to make good decisions for Ukrainians. I do not think people in Western Ukraine are idiots or even George Bush Toadies or any other pejoritive you may coin. They have a difference of political opinion which is in the minority at the present time.

Can I take a wild guess and say you voted Democrat?

First off, Tsar Putin may not be in Afghanistan or Iraq, but he still occupies Georgia and the Caucasus including Chechnya. As far as Yushenko being ally's with Bush...who could blame him ? It was Tsar Putin himself that made remarks to Ukraine as not being a country, it was his Kremlin stooges that made threats against the Crim...which was last time I checked, still part of sovereign, democratic and independent Ukraine. If Tsar Putin and his Russian loving boot licking lap dog Yanukovych have their way, Ukraine will be in Moscow's fold in no time flat. And what comes with that deal ? Try no democracy, no freedom of speech, no Ukrainian language revival. It will be Tsarist Russia crapping on what brainwashed Russians like to call "Little Russia".

All I'm saying is that Western Ukraine would be better off to go it alone. Eastern Ukraine can become a part of Russia...it's where their hearts are at, and Western Ukraine can have the chance to join modern day mainstream Europe, and hopefully the EU. What that means is people in Western Ukraine will have the chance to enjoy such perks as DEMOCRACY, the Schengen Zone, and the Ukrainian language, while Eastern Ukraine will have the chance to enjoy new statues of Lenin, Stalin, and Tsar Putin...also it means they won't have to stress their brains anymore wondering who's going to win the next election seeing how Russians always know who's going to win months before said election. "United Russia" in Eastern Ukraine is a big hit, along with the Russian naval base in Sevastopol, revision of history, statues of Stalin the Butcher, and of course his teacher... Comrade Lenin.

Splitting the country in two would be a win - win situation IMO.

Edited October 12, 2010 by Why_Me

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Hey, don't get me wrong. The people of Ukraine are to blame for the current President. The difference is that Yanukovich changed some of the voting rules prior to the election and managed to steal this election. Then he pads the court with his guys and then challenges the very laws that he fought for after the Orange Revolution and gets them thrown out. Thus, placing him in the dictatorial position he coveted.

You still think that Ukraine is free like that?

Mark my words, it's going to get a lot worse for Ukraine. Unfortunately the majority of the population of Ukraine is in the Central and Eastern parts of the country. With Yanukovich will most likely come the destruction of democracy, and possibly the Ukrainian language.

[slim 1,525]

Geese and ganders in this thread... I'm outta here!

[1HappyGuy 45]

Mark my words, it's going to get a lot worse for Ukraine. Unfortunately the majority of the population of Ukraine is in the Central and Eastern parts of the country. With Yanukovich will most likely come the destruction of democracy, and possibly the Ukrainian language.

From what I'm told, Yanukovich does a pretty good job of destroying the Ukrainian language all on his own.

Apparently his Russian isn't very good either. I guess he skipped the Russian lessons in prison and he probably thinks that Ukrainian is something like Pig Latin in America.

But you are probably right that things are going to get a lot worse for Ukraine before it gets better. It sure seems like Ukraine is learning about democracy the hard way. We can only hope that the people wise up soon and start to dump the politicians that want the old ways. That route was a trip to nowhere.