Question for followers of any religion

[one...two...tree 2,762]

(Please keep this on topic and with respect to religious beliefs or teachings)

Why give to the poor? Where is the reciprocity? Where does personal responsibility come into play?

Take this Gospel passage from Luke for example: Lk 16:19-31

Jesus said to the Pharisees:

"There was a rich man who dressed in purple garments and fine linen

and dined sumptuously each day.

And lying at his door was a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores,

who would gladly have eaten his fill of the scraps

that fell from the rich man's table.

Dogs even used to come and lick his sores.

When the poor man died,

he was carried away by angels to the bosom of Abraham.

The rich man also died and was buried,

and from the netherworld, where he was in torment,

he raised his eyes and saw Abraham far off

and Lazarus at his side.

And he cried out, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me.

Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue,

for I am suffering torment in these flames.'

Abraham replied,

'My child, remember that you received

what was good during your lifetime

while Lazarus likewise received what was bad;

but now he is comforted here, whereas you are tormented.

Moreover, between us and you a great chasm is established

to prevent anyone from crossing who might wish to go

from our side to yours or from your side to ours.'

He said, 'Then I beg you, father,

send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers,

so that he may warn them,

lest they too come to this place of torment.'

But Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the prophets.

Let them listen to them.'

He said, 'Oh no, father Abraham,

but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

Then Abraham said, 'If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets,

neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead.'"

[evli1966 88]

I like this :

Matthew 25:35-40

35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, [1] you did it to me.’

Acts 20:35

35 In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”

But it must be balanced when giving to others as not to enable someone:

2 Thessalonians 3

8] Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:

[9] Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

[10] For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

[11] For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.

1 Thessalonians 4

⁹ But concerning brotherly love you have no need that I should write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another; ¹⁰ and indeed you do so toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, that you increase more and more; ¹¹ that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you, ¹² that you may walk properly toward those who are outside, and that you may lack nothing.

[^_^ 5,021]

I give the poor ####### I don't need. it's better ghat trashing it because the poor are marginally more important that the trash heap. so sayeth the lord.

ps. the lord can't type, those are not typos, that's how the big schmuck upstairs types. what a loser.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

But it must be balanced when giving to others as not to enable someone:

2 Thessalonians 3

8] Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:

[9] Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

[10] For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

[11] For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.

It's interesting how different the various translations of that passage are. Here's from NAB:

For you know how one must imitate us. For we did not act in a disorderly way among you, 8 nor did we eat food received free from anyone. On the contrary, in toil and drudgery, night and day we worked, so as not to burden any of you. 9 Not that we do not have the right. Rather, we wanted to present ourselves as a model for you, so that you might imitate us. 10 In fact, when we were with you, we instructed you that if anyone was unwilling to work, neither should that one eat...................

This was a letter from St. Paul to the Thessalonians. Do you think Paul here was trying to undermine Jesus' teaching in Matthew's Gospel about doing to the least of our brothers? For example, visiting someone in jail. Wouldn't it be safe to assume that if they are in jail, it is their own doing (like choosing not work)?

[Danno 1,228]

The parable you gave steve is a wonderful lesson... if not warning, to followers to care for the poor.

It's unfortunate some would take that lesson (and others) and think that the calling is to "MAKE OTHER FOLLOW THE COMMANDMENT.

NO where that I have seen, does Jesus -Compel us to Compel others to help the poor via some tax raising scheme.

As a citizen we might think a social program is a good idea and vote for it ... but that has nothing to so with the "spiritual principle" requiring you Personally to help the poor. (among other things)

[one...two...tree 2,762]

The parable you gave steve is a wonderful lesson... if not warning, to followers to care for the poor.

It's unfortunate some would take that lesson (and others) and think that the calling is to "MAKE OTHER FOLLOW THE COMMANDMENT.

NO where that I have seen, does Jesus -Compel us to Compel others to help the poor via some tax raising scheme.

As a citizen we might think a social program is a good idea and vote for it ... but that has nothing to so with the "spiritual principle" requiring you Personally to help the poor. (among other things)

No one forces you to pay taxes, just like no one forces you to obey the laws. How are you forced?

[웃 910]

Napkin-ism tells me to treat the poor as though I treat a napkin. Give unto the napkin, do not eat unless the napkin can eat, clean up with the napkin, and when you are done using the napkin crumble it into an itty bitty ball and toss it in the trash!!!

[Danno 1,228]

No one forces you to pay taxes, just like no one forces you to obey the laws. How are you forced?

YOu pay or you will be punished.

lets not divert off into silliness here.

[chri'stina 190]

Is this really about why people who follow a religion believe they should give to the poor, or is this just a political spin off from the debates around here? I haven't read other threads today to know. I am asking because I don't feel like taking the time to post real things if this is a thread that is just about politics.

[twowls 217]

Is this really about why people who follow a religion believe they should give to the poor, or is this just a political spin off from the debates around here? I haven't read other threads today to know. I am asking because I don't feel like taking the time to post real things if this is a thread that is just about politics.

Good posts make good threads! Take a chance.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Is this really about why people who follow a religion believe they should give to the poor, or is this just a political spin off from the debates around here? I haven't read other threads today to know. I am asking because I don't feel like taking the time to post real things if this is a thread that is just about politics.

No spin off a political thread. Today's Gospel reading was from Luke 16:19-31 - the passage that I posted in the OP.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

YOu pay or you will be punished.

lets not divert off into silliness here.

We're getting off topic here, but there's no silliness in knowing that no one forces you to remain a USC. The conditions of your citizenship is that you will obey the laws here or face consequences. You are completely free to renounce your citizenship, thereby freeing yourself of any obligations to pay taxes. Same with state and local taxes. You can leave whatever state you currently live in freely if don't want to pay the state taxes there.

Now back to topic.

Edited September 27, 2010 by El Buscador

[chri'stina 190]

It's interesting how different the various translations of that passage are. Here's from NAB:

For you know how one must imitate us. For we did not act in a disorderly way among you, 8 nor did we eat food received free from anyone. On the contrary, in toil and drudgery, night and day we worked, so as not to burden any of you. 9 Not that we do not have the right. Rather, we wanted to present ourselves as a model for you, so that you might imitate us. 10 In fact, when we were with you, we instructed you that if anyone was unwilling to work, neither should that one eat...................

This was a letter from St. Paul to the Thessalonians. Do you think Paul here was trying to undermine Jesus' teaching in Matthew's Gospel about doing to the least of our brothers? For example, visiting someone in jail. Wouldn't it be safe to assume that if they are in jail, it is their own doing (like choosing not work)?

Not necessarily. Remember they lived during the Roman Empire and later Paul was in jail for preaching about Christ being the son of God. The reasons for people in jail would be varied from stealing, treason and murder to I imagine simple disrespect of the Roman rulers, and also preaching of things that made some people angry (which led to riots and disorderly conduct). Although, the love of God is meant to be shared with anyone. Not just law abiding, hard working people.

Not long ago as I was going into a Target, a sort of distressed looking guy was outside near the doors. I was by myself and didn't want to make eye contact with him. He leaned against the store front wall and slid down into a sitting position. As I got closer to the store I decided I had to make eye contact since he was right there and he then started asking in a sad sounding voice if I had 50 cents he could have, or maybe a dollar, or 1.50(he kept increasing the amount hehe) because he "wanted to buy his son a birthday present and didn't have money".

My initial reaction inside was "what a liar, yeah right", but then I realized I was judging and all in these quick seconds changed my mind opened my wallet and pulled out $2 but I didn't have much cash. I very rarely have cash on me. I felt like his story was a lie, but maybe it wasn't. Maybe I helped him collect more money towards his next fix, he seemed jittery, but all I know is I gave it. And that's all I need to know for myself. It's not me who will judge what he does with it. I myself have a job to do, despite what others will choose to do with my help or other people's help.

I later walked out with a medium Starbucks latte and felt like a snob walking past him again even though I already gave him money(not much). He was still out there. Part of me also thought to tell Target about it because he might make some people feel uncomfortable while walking inside the store. We don't see stuff like that much around here. But I just left.

So I think I should give to the poor because I cannot be the judge of why a person asks for money or help. I think there is a difference between people who really do go around taking advantage of people and those who are seriously in a rough spot. But actually either way, I am supposed to help.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Not necessarily. Remember they lived during the Roman Empire and later Paul was in jail for preaching about Christ being the son of God. The reasons for people in jail would be varied from stealing, treason and murder to I imagine simple disrespect of the Roman rulers, and also preaching of things that made some people angry (which led to riots and disorderly conduct). Although, the love of God is meant to be shared with anyone. Not just law abiding, hard working people.

Not long ago as I was going into a Target, a sort of distressed looking guy was outside near the doors. I was by myself and didn't want to make eye contact with him. He leaned against the store front wall and slid down into a sitting position. As I got closer to the store I decided I had to make eye contact since he was right there and he then started asking in a sad sounding voice if I had 50 cents he could have, or maybe a dollar, or 1.50(he kept increasing the amount hehe) because he "wanted to buy his son a birthday present and didn't have money".

My initial reaction inside was "what a liar, yeah right", but then I realized I was judging and all in these quick seconds changed my mind opened my wallet and pulled out $2 but I didn't have much cash. I very rarely have cash on me. I felt like his story was a lie, but maybe it wasn't. Maybe I helped him collect more money towards his next fix, he seemed jittery, but all I know is I gave it. And that's all I need to know for myself. It's not me who will judge what he does with it. I myself have a job to do, despite what others will choose to do with my help or other people's help.

I later walked out with a medium Starbucks latte and felt like a snob walking past him again even though I already gave him money(not much). He was still out there. Part of me also thought to tell Target about it because he might make some people feel uncomfortable while walking inside the store. We don't see stuff like that much around here. But I just left.

So I think I should give to the poor because I cannot be the judge of why a person asks for money or help. I think there is a difference between people who really do go around taking advantage of people and those who are seriously in a rough spot. But actually either way, I am supposed to help.

Great post, Stina. I too have felt the same - unsure about the circumstances of the person I'm giving money to. For donations to charities, or even welfare programs, I believe that most of the recipients are truly in need as such programs require certain conditions before help is offered. In those cases, however, how does one know whether that person is choosing to need help? In other words, can we ever be certain whether someone truly needs help and how much does that matter in the end, in terms of Jesus' message of helping the poor?

[chri'stina 190]

Great post, Stina. I too have felt the same - unsure about the circumstances of the person I'm giving money to. For donations to charities, or even welfare programs, I believe that most of the recipients are truly in need as such programs require certain conditions before help is offered. In those cases, however, how does one know whether that person is choosing to need help? In other words, can we ever be certain whether someone truly needs help and how much does that matter in the end, in terms of Jesus' message of helping the poor?

I used to be more against giving money to people who asked for it. I didn't want to help the druggie or alcoholic get their fix. But then I read some personal stories of people, some who went undercover as homeless people to see what it was like, and then other stories, and felt like sometimes they just need a few bucks. I have dropped food off for people holding the 'will work for food' signs, and they hide the food to eat later because I guess food is not all they wanted. But I feel like I don't need to judge it anymore. We can't usually help every single time we see something like this, but sometimes it's the right time to help.

Edited September 27, 2010 by chri'stina