Naked performance with dead pig branded "sick"

[godsavethequeen 0]

Have you ever stepped on an ant? Swatted a fly? Did you use their bodies afterward for any purpose? They qualify as animals in my new "definition" of animals.

Flys and Ants have always been animals whether it is your new definition of not. A pig is a mammal and an animal too. A fly is an insect and an animal too. A human is a mammal and an animal too.

and maybe the artsy performance is a statement about the pig ignorance of some posters on this forum.

[Lewis 0]

Have you ever stepped on an ant? Swatted a fly? Did you use their bodies afterward for any purpose? They qualify as animals in my new "definition" of animals.

Flys and Ants have always been animals whether it is your new definition of not. A pig is a mammal and an animal too. A fly is an insect and an animal too. A human is a mammal and an animal too.

and maybe the artsy performance is a statement about the pig ignorance of some posters on this forum.

Ok, I was trying to show how ridiculous it is to take the stance that "animals are my friends"(lauraxmarie), interesting that you didn't pick up on that. I was making the point when extremist groups talk about loving animals they always seem to leave out the nasty ones for their convoluted arguments.

Sorry, I don't have friends like rats, cockroaches, or other disease carrying vermin. Actually, I don't have pigs for friends either but I did raise a couple when I was younger. I actually like pigs but considering them as friends is kind of bizarre I think. There are some gray lines here, I know many people consider their pets friends but to make a broad statment about all animals in general is extreme, IMO. Pigs are intelligent animals that make good pets if you raise them from when they are young.

Maybe the "artsy performance" has nothing to do with anything besides artistic expression. I would not know unless I saw the show myself or spoke to the artist. As to relevance to individual's "ignorance" on this forum, I don't see the connection, that sounds more like a personal gripe or frustration.

[KarenCee 3]

I just wanna know one thing - did she have sex with the pig before they killed it? And if so, did they get any video?

Um....that's just sick....are you running some sort of fever? Maybe you need to see a doctor or something?

[Alex+R 0]

Not true. Do you see PeTA protesters targeting tribes in say, Africa, or people living in the depths of Alaska where crops can not be grown? No.

Laura, I agree with you 100% on everything so far, but I think African hunting is especially interesting.

Many pro-animal people DO have an issue with certain cases of sustenance hunting. In many parts of Africa, there is illegal hunting of bush meat. The animals are becoming endangered, and we are talking about primates here!

Are there other solutions? Yes. Find sustainable crops to grow in the area and perhaps bring in other sources of meat (to protect the endangered animals), for example. The issue goes beyond the ecological and into the economical (obviously basing your small economy on an endangered animal is not exactly the way to make your business sustainable), and is extremely complicated, but even in these areas there are ways to protect animals from extinction.

Visit Bushmeat Crisis Task Force

heres a quiz:

a lost dog is found in late autumn. famished, limping due to ingrown toenail, matted fur. obviously a stray.

to the ideals of PETA... is it more humane to take it in and give it a home, give medical attention to the paw, comb out the matted fur, feed it, and make sure it has a warm place to live during the coming snowy winter...

OR

leave it alone to be liberated and do what it would. possibly get hit by a car, possibly starve or shot as stray.

because I know what my answer is... and it doesnt agree with PETA's.

Repeatedly ignoring the whole animal rights movement in favor of criticizing any pro-animal sentiment under the name "PETA" is really not constructive. Many animal rights philosophers believe that the most humane thing we can do is to spay and neuter ALL dogs (and yes, that is the position of PETA as well) and wait for them to all die out. There are no animal rights activists who believe we should let dogs suffer, and anyone who told you different was either insane or...you misunderstood.

The aforementioned philosophers argue that it is our fault dogs, cats and other domesticated animals are dependant on humans, so we must care for them. They believe the dog is an animal who would not exist if not for humans. However, there is some controversy because some evidence suggests that the animals domesticated themselves.

As for breeders, shame on them. Look what happens to purebred dogs: many have some sort of genetic disorder. Too much inbreeding. Mutts have a much lower incidence of bad hips, blindness, deafness, etc.

[Ban Hammer 13,352]

Laura, I agree with you 100% on everything so far, but I think African hunting is especially interesting.

Many pro-animal people DO have an issue with certain cases of sustenance hunting. In many parts of Africa, there is illegal hunting of bush meat. The animals are becoming endangered, and we are talking about primates here!

Are there other solutions? Yes. Find sustainable crops to grow in the area and perhaps bring in other sources of meat (to protect the endangered animals), for example. The issue goes beyond the ecological and into the economical (obviously basing your small economy on an endangered animal is not exactly the way to make your business sustainable), and is extremely complicated, but even in these areas there are ways to protect animals from extinction.

that's all nice and wonderful - and a pipe dream. grow crops there, import a bunch of animals, and then watch the petty dictators do their thing. with ethnic cleansing, tribal warfare, and all the other problems that plague africa i'm sure the crops will be able to grow (sarcasm) along with the animals being hunted to extinction, and then back to the same old thing. until the political and educational climate there changes, i won't hold my breath for your solution being workable.

Repeatedly ignoring the whole animal rights movement in favor of criticizing any pro-animal sentiment under the name "PETA" is really not constructive. Many animal rights philosophers believe that the most humane thing we can do is to spay and neuter ALL dogs (and yes, that is the position of PETA as well) and wait for them to all die out. There are no animal rights activists who believe we should let dogs suffer, and anyone who told you different was either insane or...you misunderstood.

The aforementioned philosophers argue that it is our fault dogs, cats and other domesticated animals are dependant on humans, so we must care for them. They believe the dog is an animal who would not exist if not for humans. However, there is some controversy because some evidence suggests that the animals domesticated themselves.

As for breeders, shame on them. Look what happens to purebred dogs: many have some sort of genetic disorder. Too much inbreeding. Mutts have a much lower incidence of bad hips, blindness, deafness, etc.

yes blame the breeders and not those creating the demand for such dogs. let's blame the breeders instead of the idiots who want the currently popular dog and then discover it's a pain and dump it. and let's blame gm and ford for the gas crisis as they make the cars.

[Alex+R 0]

that's all nice and wonderful - and a pipe dream. grow crops there, import a bunch of animals, and then watch the petty dictators do their thing. with ethnic cleansing, tribal warfare, and all the other problems that plague africa i'm sure the crops will be able to grow (sarcasm) along with the animals being hunted to extinction, and then back to the same old thing. until the political and educational climate there changes, i won't hold my breath for your solution being workable.

Charles: why not visit the site I linked. Here's the thing: pretty soon (and we're talking the next 10 years here) the animals they're killing are going to die. Then what? All the people die? If anything this solution is for the people, even more (or equally) than for the endangered animals.

edit to add: one of the biggest problems of trying to prevent this problem is, in fact, the corrupt governments, so there you are right. It makes implementing any sort of system difficult. It will be their people who suffer. If the world cared more about these people something could be done to help them.

yes blame the breeders and not those creating the demand for such dogs. let's blame the breeders instead of the idiots who want the currently popular dog and then discover it's a pain and dump it. and let's blame gm and ford for the gas crisis as they make the cars.

Charles, cars and living animals are not comparable, and your example makes almost no sense. (I'm sorry I can't be more explicit than that, I might pop a blood vessel.) How can you possibly argue that just because people want something the people who give it to them are not guilty? So if a bunch of terrorists show up and ask me to build them some weapons, am I not guilty for making them because the demand was there? Hmmmm

If people discover they don't want dogs and dump them, how does that give breeders reason to make MORE of them? I don't follow.

Edited August 19, 2006 by Alex+R

[Ban Hammer 13,352]

that's all nice and wonderful - and a pipe dream. grow crops there, import a bunch of animals, and then watch the petty dictators do their thing. with ethnic cleansing, tribal warfare, and all the other problems that plague africa i'm sure the crops will be able to grow (sarcasm) along with the animals being hunted to extinction, and then back to the same old thing. until the political and educational climate there changes, i won't hold my breath for your solution being workable.

Charles: why not visit the site I linked. Here's the thing: pretty soon (and we're talking the next 10 years here) the animals they're killing are going to die. Then what? All the people die? If anything this solution is for the people, even more (or equally) than for the endangered animals.

edit to add: one of the biggest problems of trying to prevent this problem is, in fact, the corrupt governments, so there you are right. It makes implementing any sort of system difficult. It will be their people who suffer. If the world cared more about these people something could be done to help them.

yes blame the breeders and not those creating the demand for such dogs. let's blame the breeders instead of the idiots who want the currently popular dog and then discover it's a pain and dump it. and let's blame gm and ford for the gas crisis as they make the cars.

Charles, cars and living animals are not comparable, and your example makes almost no sense. (I'm sorry I can't be more explicit than that, I might pop a blood vessel.) How can you possibly argue that just because people want something the people who give it to them are not guilty? So if a bunch of terrorists show up and ask me to build them some weapons, am I not guilty for making them because the demand was there? Hmmmm

If people discover they don't want dogs and dump them, how does that give breeders reason to make MORE of them? I don't follow.

oh our capitalist system. supply and demand. if breeders here don't have them guess what, they go to mexico. my father is a responsible breeder and he does not run a puppy mill. he's got a total of like 15 dogs. a litter a month on average. he's very concerned about the puppy's well being. also, given that the puppy starts at 450 and up most don't buy them on a whim. he detests puppy mills who sell a dog (same breed) for less than half of what he charges. but his puppies have all their shots and rarely have genetic problems. so if you want to point the finger at someone, point it at the buyer and the puppy mills. not those who take good care of the puppies.

[Mirorgate 0]

Laura, I agree with you 100% on everything so far, but I think African hunting is especially interesting.

Many pro-animal people DO have an issue with certain cases of sustenance hunting. In many parts of Africa, there is illegal hunting of bush meat. The animals are becoming endangered, and we are talking about primates here!

Are there other solutions? Yes. Find sustainable crops to grow in the area and perhaps bring in other sources of meat (to protect the endangered animals), for example. The issue goes beyond the ecological and into the economical (obviously basing your small economy on an endangered animal is not exactly the way to make your business sustainable), and is extremely complicated, but even in these areas there are ways to protect animals from extinction.

Visit Bushmeat Crisis Task Force

Repeatedly ignoring the whole animal rights movement in favor of criticizing any pro-animal sentiment under the name "PETA" is really not constructive. Many animal rights philosophers believe that the most humane thing we can do is to spay and neuter ALL dogs (and yes, that is the position of PETA as well) and wait for them to all die out. There are no animal rights activists who believe we should let dogs suffer, and anyone who told you different was either insane or...you misunderstood.

The aforementioned philosophers argue that it is our fault dogs, cats and other domesticated animals are dependant on humans, so we must care for them. They believe the dog is an animal who would not exist if not for humans. However, there is some controversy because some evidence suggests that the animals domesticated themselves.

As for breeders, shame on them. Look what happens to purebred dogs: many have some sort of genetic disorder. Too much inbreeding. Mutts have a much lower incidence of bad hips, blindness, deafness, etc.

Laura, I agree with you 100% on everything so far, but I think African hunting is especially interesting.

interesting. read back again on her stance with ALF.. and what they do. you 100% support firebombig of privately held facilities? teaching classes on how to make molotove cocktails? ends justifying the means? last I knew.. arson was against the law, as well as intentional destruction of property.

there are other ways to go about it.

no animal rights activists who believe we should let dogs suffer, and anyone who told you different was either insane or...you misunderstood

no her rhetoric was quite clear on her stance... and so is PETA's. animals arent even to be considered pets... interferring.. spaying and neutering... is against their moral code. apparently so is modern medicine in a lot of areas depending on how far they want to carry their ideals. Apparently I interferred with the natural order of things.. so am an "enemy of animals the everywhere"

The aforementioned philosophers

ummm.. you meaning Animal "rights" activists? philosophers? hardly.. they do not fit criteria of word.

phi·los·o·pher Audio pronunciation of "philosopher" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (f-ls-fr)

n.

1. A student of or specialist in philosophy.

2. A person who lives and thinks according to a particular philosophy.

3. A person who is calm and rational under any circumstances.

I guess 1 out of 3 make it so? Then I guess by that arguement... Ceasar was GOD.

I am all about ethical treatment of animals, I do not associate with ppl that abuse them, nor randomly commit heinous acts of cruelty against them. I do not agree with, throwing blood/red paint on other ppls belongings because I disagree with fur, give children buckets of entrails and animal parts in front of KFC, nor hypocritical ppl who espouse one ideology while doing the opposite. Some of the best wildlife conservationists I know are active hunters and fishermen.

Repeatedly ignoring the whole animal rights movement in favor of criticizing any pro-animal sentiment under the name "PETA" is really not constructive.

I havent cherry picked anything.. there are ppl that are out there trying to do good things for animals in a humane way... PETA critizes them because they dont follow same "philosophy"... or sensationalistic tactics. Remember

PETA operates under the simple principle that animals are not ours to eat, wear, experiment on, or use for entertainment.

unless it's animal Insulin.. then its ok. Never mind we have human insulin on the market. Never mind that they want to tell me how to live my life and choose my eating habits for me. Choose my wardrobe for me, and choose which medical treatments I may or may not have. Talk about a fascist movement.

fas·cism Audio pronunciation of "fascism" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fshzm)

n.

1. often Fascism

1. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

2. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.

2. Oppressive, dictatorial control.

Thanks, but I prefer freedom of choice in my life. Free to choose my meals, my clothes, and if I want a pet as a companion or not. Do what you want.. just don't try to tell me what I whant to do that conflicts with my principles of life. And I can do without the hypocrisy too.

[*Robert* 2]

whatever floats their boats... they can't claim cruelty to the animal though!

[garya505 2]

Well, the woman doesn't look that hot to me, but the pig looks pretty tasty.

[Alex+R 0]

Miror:

1. Laura does not support ALF although she said she used to. Read the posts. Anyway, I don't agree with you that "destroying private property" is a higher priority than animal lives. However, I don't believe you need to do that to protect animals. I am not an ALF supporter.

2. Whoever you were talking to was obviously a moron with some very extreme views. Obviously you have taken what she said to represent all pro-animal people because it makes it easier for you to discount anything any of them say. PETA also has some stances I disagree with; my point was that you should probably stop using PETA's positions as representative of the whole animal rights movement's positions.

3. No, I was not referring to all activists as philosophers. Most of the philosophy professors I have met have liked to be called philosophers. Especially the famous, publishing kind. I was talking about ACTUAL PHILOSPHERS such as Tom Regan , for example. Have you completely missed the boat on the real animal rights debate? And no need to be ridiculous with the dictionary. Obviously some words have more than one meaning.

4. There is no need for this "do what you want" talk with me. I am not PETA. PETA does not want to tell you what to do any more than any other group. They are just making their view heard. Calling them fascist is, well, ridiculous. I believe I've used that word already responding to your post I don't see that definition you gave doing anything but making your previous sentence look silly. Your defensiveness (and rudeness) indicates that you feel "attacked" by these people (who, incidentally, are NOT me). Why?

5. Still! No one has explained this whole "hypocrisy" thing. Who is the hypocrite? Real animal rights supporters do not wear leather. Are you using that half-wit girl you talked with as a representative of all animal rights supporters? Because I thought you were using PETA for that.

oh our capitalist system. supply and demand. if breeders here don't have them guess what, they go to mexico. my father is a responsible breeder and he does not run a puppy mill. he's got a total of like 15 dogs. a litter a month on average. he's very concerned about the puppy's well being. also, given that the puppy starts at 450 and up most don't buy them on a whim. he detests puppy mills who sell a dog (same breed) for less than half of what he charges. but his puppies have all their shots and rarely have genetic problems. so if you want to point the finger at someone, point it at the buyer and the puppy mills. not those who take good care of the puppies.

Charles, I can only assume that your father is a really good guy and that he takes good care of those puppies. I just think there is something wrong with the WHOLE INDUSTRY. This is a difficult situation. Do not get me wrong: I am very glad people like your father are doing the breeding if breeding must be done, and I respect anyone who takes care of dogs. Puppy mills are a HUGE problem and I do not equate what your dad does with what those horrible puppy mills do.

I DO blame the buyers, but I think everyone involved has to shoulder a little bit of the blame. My point was that nobody is absolved of blame if they profit off the industry.

I am a pet owner myself! I love pets. That wasn't necessarily my stance- that we should eliminate pets from the earth. I was just noting the views of some activists.

[Alex+R 0]

Mirror! One more thing:

I forgot to address the fact that you don't really seem to have your facts on PETA straight, as Laura pointed out.

Check THIS out. It's PETA explaining why it's important to spay and neuter.

This is just one example of the many ways you've misrepresented PETA and anyone else involved in animal rights.

edit: tags

Edited August 19, 2006 by Alex+R

[Mirorgate 0]

1. Laura does not support ALF although she said she used to. Read the posts. Anyway, I don't agree with you that "destroying private property" is a higher priority than animal lives. However, I don't believe you need to do that to protect animals. I am not an ALF supporter.

good for you… fire-bombing will get you placed in jail eventually. But as to the other aspect.

then I moved to the practices of the ALF- I saw so little changing in the law, I figured the only way to help animals when they need us- now- was to remove them from the abuse. Now Im a little calmer, and see all the aspects of the movement as useful. After all, it is the largest, most successful political movement of today. Whatever methods the movement employs, they will always be criticsed. People dont want to know what goes on to provide them with food, clothing and luxuries- so they are going to fight it, so as not to have to acknowledge it.

Ahh…. Because she is a little more calmer now her support of ALF went away. Gotcha.

2. Whoever you were talking to was obviously a moron with some very extreme views. Obviously you have taken what she said to represent all pro-animal people because it makes it easier for you to discount anything any of them say. PETA also has some stances I disagree with; my point was that you should probably stop using PETA's positions as representative of the whole animal rights movement's positions.

No. My views regarding the subject are not based on 1 persons’ editorial screaming in a loudspeaker, and I realized when I spoke with her also that it didn’t mean much more than the hard liners. To assume such out of a few posts is quite the leap of faith on your part.

3. No, I was not referring to all activists as philosophers. Most of the philosophy professors I have met have liked to be called philosophers. Especially the famous, publishing kind. I was talking about ACTUAL PHILOSPHERS such as Tom Regan , for example. Have you completely missed the boat on the real animal rights debate? And no need to be ridiculous with the dictionary. Obviously some words have more than one meaning.

My bad then.. you spoke about philosophers above… but all I saw was a PETA mentioned and BUSHMEAT link. And no, I have not “missed the boat” on animal rights. There are many “rights” movements… most notable are ALF, PETA, Mother Earth, Earth First, etc. Mainly you see them in the news when they destroy property all in the name of “the cause”. You have the right to vote, you have the right to free trial, animals have the right to survive and live.. I have repeated that many times. I do not equate them as the same as I. Obviously you do.

4. There is no need for this "do what you want" talk with me. I am not PETA. PETA does not want to tell you what to do any more than any other group. They are just making their view heard. Calling them fascist is, well, ridiculous. I believe I've used that word already responding to your post I don't see that definition you gave doing anything but making your previous sentence look silly. Your defensiveness (and rudeness) indicates that you feel "attacked" by these people (who, incidentally, are NOT me). Why?

Why do you ignore the fact that PETA resorts to shock tactics when they do not need to?, and lets not forget teaching children that eat meat = animal cruelty: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,156398,00.html . What about this article then? http://www.washingtontimes.com/commentary/...85338-5284r.htm

So I’m a fascist for supporting the eating of meat… hardly. Am I picketing vegan only restaurants? Am I throwing blood on ppl? Am I threatening them in any way as these other grps have done as well? No. And PETA (as well as other grps also) DO want to tell me what I can and can not eat, and do with animals.

Still! No one has explained this whole "hypocrisy" thing. Who is the hypocrite? Real animal rights supporters do not wear leather. Are you using that half-wit girl you talked with as a representative of all animal rights supporters? Because I thought you were using PETA for that.

INSULIN. That alone speaks volumes. Ignore it again if you like. I do not care.

PETA operates under the simple principle that animals are not ours to eat, wear, experiment on, or use for entertainment.

and also... I have not misrepresented them. they misrepresent themselves by saying one thing and yet doing another. and just to let you know.. I SUPPORT SPAYING AND NEUTERING. For whatever reason you want. It is your pet. I neutered mine. oohhh... pet for enjoyment... bummer on that one eh?

[Alex+R 0]

Mirorgate, you've got to stop thinking I hold all these wacko opinions I don't have.

1. I own pets FOR ENJOYMENT as well. It is a great joy.

2. I actually (gasp) eat meat. I didn't used to, I probably won't in the future, but right now for some health concerns, I do. I feel a little weird about it, but I ate meat until high school, so it's nothing new.

3. ALF: I have never engaged, nor do I ever plan to engage, in violent tactics for anything I believe in. I don't support that.

4. I do not equate people and animals. I eat animals, ahem, and unless I end up in some freaky Donner-party situation, I don't think I'd eat people. I DO believe we have a responsability to them as the strongest species. That is a decision I made for myself but I recognize that it is subjective.

5. Why do I ignore that PETA resorts to shock tactics : because I think they're stupid too. They obviously get people talking, but mostly about how much they hate PETA. I am not here to defend PETA. I agree generally with their overall idea, but not really beyond that. I think PETA wants to tell you what you SHOULD do, but not what you MUST do. That is something that your right to vote could someday let you choose.

6. I never called you a fascist, and I have no problem with your eating meat. My main problem with meat eating is the industries that create the meat (factory farms, etc.) and my main rationale for my lapsed vegetarianism always was the environment.

7. The insulin issue is complicated. You have people like my mother who is perimenopausal but refuses to take hormones because of the way they are extracted from animals. Others will die without medicines that come from animals. I have probably used countless medicines derived from animals or animal testing, although I am strongly against that practice.

For an individual not in charge of policy who requires medicines derived from animals/tested on animals, there is a dilemma. Do you value a human life as much as an animal life? There is the old scenario: You can only save one from your sinking boat: four humans or a million dogs. Of course, you need to chose the humans,because it's the only honest choice. Different philosophers have different takes on why, but in the end it just boils down to human nature. It is human nature to save ourselves over other species (something necessary to the continuation of a species)... the big question is whether we NEED to be using animals to save human lives.

My guess? No.

I hope that addresses some of your concerns with my previous post.

[Ban Hammer 13,352]

4. I do not equate people and animals. I eat animals, ahem, and unless I end up in some freaky Donner-party situation, I don't think I'd eat people.

donner party, table for 10. 9. 8. 7......