President John Tyler: The United States is a noble experiment in total separation of Church and State

[Danno 1,228]

God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever.

- Thomas Jefferson

[Danno 1,228]

There's some really good quotes from Thomas Jefferson regarding religion. I'll see if I can find them.

I can help

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I can help

Just don't post anymore fake quotes, Danno. You have to be careful with the internetz. There are unscrupulous people who will deliberately make sh!t up.

[Danno 1,228]

Just don't post anymore fake quotes, Danno. You have to be careful with the internetz. There are unscrupulous people who will deliberately make sh!t up.

Yes, I know.

The thing about Jefferson, he was a very thoughtful deliberate guy (which made him so valuable) and because of this you can find quotes from him coming from all angles.

Wasn't it him who said "There is no truth I fear"?

Thats a strong statement to try to live by.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Yes, I know.

The thing about Jefferson, he was a very thoughtful deliberate guy (which made him so valuable) and because of this you can find quotes from him coming from all angles.

That quote you have above is NOT an actual quote of Thomas Jefferson. You can check yourself at the Online Library of Liberty and do a phrase search. It's well accepted that Jefferson was a Deist and NOT a Christian.

[Danno 1,228]

That quote you have above is NOT an actual quote of Thomas Jefferson. You can check yourself at the Online Library of Liberty and do a phrase search. It's well accepted that Jefferson was a Deist and NOT a Christian.

We need to contact the folks at the "JEFFERSON MEMORIAL", they seem to have been duped too as it is inscribed on the inner walls there.

Who claimed he was a Christian?

Edited September 22, 2010 by Danno

[one...two...tree 2,762]

We need to contact the folks at the "JEFFERSON MEMORIAL", they seem to have been duped too as it is inscribed on the inner walls there.

from Monticello.org:

Quotations on the Jefferson Memorial

Below are listed the quotations shown on the Jefferson Memorial in Washington, D.C. When appropriate, we have also posted the passages from which the selections were taken, with the quoted excerpts in bold.

..........

Panel Three:

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that his justice cannot sleep forever. Commerce between master and slave is despotism. Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that these people are to be free. Establish a law for educating the common people. This it is the business of the state and on a general plan."

Original Passages:

"But let them [members of the parliament of Great Britain] not think to exclude us from going to other markets to dispose of those commodities which they cannot use, or to supply those wants which they cannot supply. Still less let it be proposed that our properties within our own territories shall be taxed or regulated by any power on earth but our own. The God who gave us life gave us liberty at the same time; the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them."

-- "A Summary View of the Rights of British America"

"For in a warm climate, no man will labour for himself who can make another labour for him. This is so true, that of the proprietors of slaves a very small proportion indeed are ever seen to labor. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever . . . ."

-- Notes on the State of Virginia

"The whole commerce between master and slave is a perpetual exercise of the most boisterous passions, the most unremitting despotism on the one part, and degrading submissions on the other. Our children see this, and learn to imitate it. . . ."

-- Notes on the State of Virginia

"Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that these people are to be free. Nor is it less certain that the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government. Nature, habit, opinion has drawn indelible lines of distinction between them."

-- The Autobiography

"Preach, my dear sir, a crusade against ignorance; establish & improve the law for educating the common people."

-- to George Wythe, August 13, 1780?

"It is an axiom in my mind that our liberty can never be safe but in the hands of the people themselves, and that too of the people with a certain degree of instruction. This it is the business of the state to effect, and on a general plan."

-- to George Washington, January 4, 1786

[Danno 1,228]

Panel Three:

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that his justice cannot sleep forever. Commerce between master and slave is despotism. Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that these people are to be free. Establish a law for educating the common people. This it is the business of the state and on a general plan."

When speaking of the SLAVE/MASTER part, Wilki also points out how this quote was cut to I guess make it more palatable.

- Historian Garry Wills has said that this excerpt is "misleadingly truncated", because Jefferson's original sentence continued with the argument that free blacks and whites "cannot live in the same government."[9]

[fozzie 41]

Buscador beat me to it! I said that deliberately though. Many were Deists but hardly Christians. More from what Buscador quoted:

Consider this: IF indeed the members of the First Continental Congress were all bible-believing, "God-fearing" men, would there ever have been a revolution at all?

"For rebellion as is the sin of witchcraft." 1 Samuel, 15:23

Would they have initiated a rebellion if indeed they thought it was equal to witchcraft (a crime punishable by death)? But that's only the tip of the iceberg. The New Testament gives clear instructions to Christians on how to behave when ruled under a monarchy, as were the Founders.

1 Peter 2:13: "For the Lord's sake accept the authority of every human institution, whether of the emperor as supreme, or of governors, as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right."

Paul wrote in Romans 13:1: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resist authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."

The Founders clearly did not heed what was written in the bible. If they were in fact "good" Christians, there would never have been an American Revolution. Compare the above passages with the Declaration of Independence:

"...when a long train of abuses and usurpations... evinces a design to reduce (the people) under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security..."

Anyone who can think for themselves can see that the Founders were not Christians.

These passages serve to make people fear the consequences of rebellion against the establishment however the bible is open to inerpretation hence the many denominations of christianity. It neither proves nor disproves the founding fathers religious beliefs. Besides, The bible was written to control the masses through such fear.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Besides, The bible was written to control the masses through such fear.

Say what?

[ready4ONE 5,400]

If you had a point to make on this topic I am afraid it quickly withered.

If you believe the Founding Fathers were all Bible thumping zealots you are sorely mistaken. That is simply a RWN myth.

Edited September 23, 2010 by ready4ONE

[ready4ONE 5,400]

These passages serve to make people fear the consequences of rebellion against the establishment however the bible is open to inerpretation hence the many denominations of christianity. It neither proves nor disproves the founding fathers religious beliefs. Besides, The bible was written to control the masses through such fear.

Some were Christians, but if you read what many wrote you realize many were hardly what anyone would call Christians today.

[Danno 1,228]

If you believe the Founding Fathers were all Bible thumping zealots you are sorely mistaken. That is simply a RWN myth.

And who here has tried to further such an idea?

So far we have only seen one myth suggested and I think it was by you.

[Danno 1,228]

Yeh, I know this one is not Popular with the Anti-Christs, but here it is anyway.

We recognize no sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus.

- John Adams and John Hancock

[ready4ONE 5,400]

And who here has tried to further such an idea?

So far we have only seen one myth suggested and I think it was by you.

I'm not the one with the invisible friend. And you quoted John Henry thus bolstering the RWN myth our founding fathers were all Christians...