Security or Police State?

[sly_wolf 199]

Across the North Country, border patrol road checkpoints where agents stop cars and ask passengers their citizenship have become a part of daily life. Today we have a story about another step in the creeping influence of homeland security inside the border.

It’s now become commonplace for federal agents to board buses and trains across Upstate New York and ask passengers for proof of citizenship. The checks are sweeping up some drugs and illegal immigrants, but also people who are here legally. David Sommerstein reports.

Listen to a 2005 story about Border Patrol's roadside checkpoints

Watch a video by a Syracuse U. student about border patrol's checks on trains in Rochester

It’s dark at the bus stop in Canton. Two border patrol cars idle and await the 8 o’clock from Syracuse.

The Adirondack Trailways bus rumbles in.

Hey, how’re ya doing?

A pair of border patrol agents greets the driver, then boards the bus. They ask each passenger, “are you an American citizen?”, then move on. Tonight, everyone checks out and the whole thing ends quickly.

This scene’s become increasingly common across New York as almost 2,000 more agents have been assigned to the northern border since September 11th. The Border Patrol asserts its authority to conduct checks like this within 100 air miles of the international border, including coastlines.

The policy’s been hard on international students in a region with dozens of universities. Take the case of a Chinese piano student who was detained from a bus two years ago.

He was handcuffed. He felt very threatened.

Bethany Parker-Goeke directs the international education office at SUNY Potsdam. She says the 20 year-old – who she can’t name for privacy reasons - was applying for a change in visa status, so he didn’t have his documents on him.

I had all his original, valid documents on my desk.

The student was held for four hours, then returned to campus. A few days later, federal agents were back to detain him again because his status was still up in the air. He spent almost a month in two county jails and one immigration detention center near Buffalo. Finally, says Parker-Goeke, he was released.

It was very disturbing to me because they had given him a jail nickname…”smart boy. I was just appalled to think that this international student had another…education…all separate that he really should not have had at all.

Because the student missed the first four months of the semester, he had to drop out and return to China. Parker-Goeke says his parents wouldn’t let him come back.

Parker-Goeke says another Chinese student in Potsdam was detained last year while doing field research in a swamp.

At the University of Rochester, international student services director Cary Jensen says thousands of his students have been questioned on the bus or train over the last few years, with more than a dozen detained.

I know there’s concerns of anti-terrorism and smuggling and we want to stop that stuff but in the process of trying to do that stuff we’re creating an unfriendly environment for the legitimate people who are here who we want to attract here.

Ordinary citizens are also subject to the document checks. In this 2008 video by a Syracuse University student, an African American man objects to the scrutiny while on a train in Rochester.

[video clip]

The Border Patrol wouldn’t do an interview for this story. But in an e-mailed statement, spokesman Rafael Levitre said agents use the checks to prevent smugglers from using public transportation to access the interior of the country.

Media reports say the checks have netted drugs and criminals. But civil rights advocates say they’re too intrusive.

We don’t live in a society where you have to carry your papers at all times.

Udi Ofer is a lawyer with the American Civil Liberties Union. He says 97% of all New Yorkers live within the hundred mile zone, as so two-thirds of all Americans. Ofer says the border patrol is going far beyond the constitution’s requirement of individualized suspicion.

No one minding his own business should be subject to an internal document check for riding a bus in New York. Not only is it a violation of our privacy rights as Americans, but quite frankly, it’s a recipe for racial profiling.

The Border Patrol says foreign appearance is one factor among many in determining suspicion. Spokesman Rafael Levitre says the interviews are “consensual”. But SUNY Potsdam’s Bethany Parker-Goeke says her students don’t feel like they had the option to remain silent.

Based on the conversations I’ve had, it was ‘you talk or things are going to get worse.’

Congressman Bill Owens sits on the House Homeland Security Committee and supports beefing up the northern border. He says the border patrol is trying to strike a balance between stopping the bad guys and leaving everyone else alone.

It is a difficult balance to achieve. We want to make sure they’re not interfering with legitimate activities of business and individuals, but it is a necessary part of the law enforcement process.

Cary Jensen of the University of Rochester says if the citizenship checks are necessary, then they should be a subject of national dialogue first. He says they evoke the police state he experienced as a student behind the Iron Curtain in 1980.

That may be a little strong for some, but I think from the perspective of the people being checked and detained, that’s exactly how it feels. If that’s what we need to do to feel secure, then we’ll all do what we need to. But my fear here is that we’ve allowed that to kind of creep in to become that without consciously deciding that’s what we need to do.

Border patrol agents met last month with Jansen and other other international student specialists from across New York. Jansen says those talks were positive, but he still counsels his international students to keep their papers on them at all times.

For North Country Public Radio, I’m David Sommerstein in Canton.

Source: http://www.northcountrypublicradio.org/news/story/16318/border-agents-now-patrol-buses-trains-far-from-the-us-canada-border

[TBoneTX 45,849]

"I don't have to answer that, sir. Good day."

"If you insist on questioning me, or if you intend to lawfully detain me or lawfully arrest me, I wish to consult with an attorney immediately."

"I do not consent to any search of my person or my possessions."

One more Supreme Court decision that eviscerates the Fifth Amendment or the shell that remains of the Fourth Amendment, and we're all sunk.

[sly_wolf 199]

My wife and I have had discussions about moving out of the country one day. Will see what the short term future holds. We can only hope it gets better but the news never seems to be very bright. Poverty levels in the US has gotten horrible based on the latest I have read too.

[Darnell 8,479]

i don't have any issues with the border patrol at the northern border line, at all.

re: students getting nabbed - geez - you'd think the university would do a better job of making sure the DSO's would tell the foreign students to carry their passports on them when they travel 5 miles or more off of campus - it sucks, really, to not get that special training, as these foreign students are BIG BUSINESS for each university.

FWIW, I never like 'the spin' that NPR puts on these radio spots, ever.

Hey - isn't it a 'good thing' - that 2000 border agents have been assigned this job, since the Sep 11th bombing of the WTC? I think it is !!

Edited September 17, 2010 by Darnell

[sly_wolf 199]

i don't have any issues with the border patrol at the northern border line, at all.

re: students getting nabbed - geez - you'd think the university would do a better job of making sure the DSO's would tell the foreign students to carry their passports on them when they travel 5 miles or more off of campus - it sucks, really, to not get that special training, as these foreign students are BIG BUSINESS for each university.

FWIW, I never like 'the spin' that NPR puts on these radio spots, ever.

Hey - isn't it a 'good thing' - that 2000 border agents have been assigned this job, since the Sep 11th bombing of the WTC? I think it is !!

Ya I guess it provides some employment. However, I am am always concerned by the abuse of power and it is likely to happen more so.

[slim 1,530]

"I don't have to answer that, sir. Good day."

"That's fine. Now, get off the bus and come with us."

"If you insist on questioning me, or if you intend to lawfully detain me or lawfully arrest me, I wish to consult with an attorney immediately."

"You'll have the chance to call your attorney on Monday morning after you speak with the judge."

"I do not consent to any search of my person or my possessions."

"No problem. You don't have to consent because when we detain you, we're going to search you and your posessions 'for our own safety' and you don't have to consent to that. Oh, you'll also be strip searched when we inprocess you to the jail. Sure you don't wanna reconsider? I'm giving you a fair chance?"

One more Supreme Court decision that eviscerates the Fifth Amendment or the shell that remains of the Fourth Amendment, and we're all sunk.

I agree, we're not that far away from losing ALL of our rights. As is, during the course of an interaction with law enforcement agents, your rights are suspended in the name of their safety. That's why you can be politely asked to sit on the curb with your hands cuffed behind your back while they "interview" you.

We have a bunch of rights and they do work. However, out on the street, during the course of the interaction, is not the place to flex them.

i don't have any issues with the border patrol at the northern border line, at all.

Hey - isn't it a 'good thing' - that 2000 border agents have been assigned this job, since the Sep 11th bombing of the WTC? I think it is !!

Defending our border is one thing. Harassing students on buses is quite another. While I realize antiterrorism requires random checks and buses and universities are great places to catch them, it seems to me a more effective use of stopping terror would be to spend the money elsewhere.

[Darnell 8,479]

Defending our border is one thing. Harassing students on buses is quite another. While I realize antiterrorism requires random checks and buses and universities are great places to catch them, it seems to me a more effective use of stopping terror would be to spend the money elsewhere.

In general, I would agree with you - but - come on - it takes less than 20 minutes to check an entire busload of students. Any foreign student not carry his passport on the bus? HEY ! That's the failing of the DSO at the University - who should have pounded it into their heads - take yer frickin passport - the border cops will detain you, otherwise. It's a no-brainer, really - but (IMO) all could have been easily prevented by the proper training to EACH DSO that works at a university. It's the university's failure, really.

I feel no compassion for anyone that is stopped and detained.

Now, border guards are one thing, but as to 'stopping terror' - come on - instant wire tapping at the flick of a switch, regardless of student status? That's what we've got now, and I'm all for it.

Edited September 17, 2010 by Darnell

[TBoneTX 45,849]

"That's fine. Now, get off the bus and come with us."

"You'll have the chance to call your attorney on Monday morning after you speak with the judge."

"No problem. You don't have to consent because when we detain you, we're going to search you and your posessions 'for our own safety' and you don't have to consent to that. Oh, you'll also be strip searched when we inprocess you to the jail. Sure you don't wanna reconsider? I'm giving you a fair chance?"

I agree, we're not that far away from losing ALL of our rights. As is, during the course of an interaction with law enforcement agents, your rights are suspended in the name of their safety. That's why you can be politely asked to sit on the curb with your hands cuffed behind your back while they "interview" you.

We have a bunch of rights and they do work. However, out on the street, during the course of the interaction, is not the place to flex them.

What do you recommend, then -- caving completely? What good, then, is a Constitution, or the few Supreme Court rulings that purportedly preserve our rights?

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

What do you recommend, then -- caving completely? What good, then, is a Constitution, or the few Supreme Court rulings that purportedly preserve our rights?

Here is my understanding. It is true that if you flex your rights you may envoke the ire of law enforcement and you could have a tougher time of things. However, if you follow the rules when its all said and done, its going to be the official who has the problem in the end. Almost all law enforcement have cameras and tapes running now. In the end it will be reviewed and if there was no reasonable suspicion for a detainment, or probable cause for an arrest then that official will be reprimanded and you'll have the opportunity for a suit or settlement. (Of course if your poor your kinda screwed...ah justice American style!)

Edited September 19, 2010 by Sousuke

[William33 110]

Moved to the Politics forum as appropriate.

Edited September 19, 2010 by William33

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

So is someone going to boycott New York over this?

I live in a border are, see border patrol cars all the time, helicopters flying over my house, radar domes on the mountains nearby. Our local stores are filled with Quebecois and French is as much as second lagunage here as Spanish is in south Texas. I haven't heard of any particular problems or anyone being harassed, certainly not my wife who frequently goes to Canada or our son who frequently goes to play sports against Canadian schools.

Who is imagining this "problem"? NPR? The illegal aliens coming from Canada are not Canadians.

[Darnell 8,479]

Gary, ya, it's 'NPR' - seems the locals wanted to 'add to the national newsfeed' that day.

Seriously - The border cops/guards are doing a great job !!!

Sure, there's exceptions - but guess what? There's a formal complaint mechanism in place, as well, for any silliness.