Another fatwa on a cartoonist

[Peikko 1,575]

Only you and Mad go the threaten to report TOS route. Accusations are your specialty. I demanded nothing beyond asking you to refrain with your pat responses. Asked for to clarify not demand.

Calm down and reread your own posts.

I'm a recent convert to the process. Now, where is your reasoned response to this thread? I'm not seeing it.

[twowls 217]

Ya know, this is 2010.

The prior fatwa was so highly publicized, that even a simpleton could draw the basic conclusion of

'Draw a Cartoon, some Muallah/Imam is gonna issue a fatwa on yer heid'.

For Molly Norris to 'not understand' the consequences of her actions, even prior to putting pen to paper, speaks volumes of her ignorance.

I've no compassion for her stupidity, at all. I prefer not to live in a society that thinks her actions have no consequences.

Well I checked the other thread, but nobody has taken up your point. I don't think she was ignorant at all. I think she made a conscious challenge to something she thinks is indefensible. I see the value in that, and I also see her act as pretty stupid. I think going apesh*t over non-Muslims violating a Muslim tenet is nuts, and I think willfully violating things that are held sacred for particular religions is rather disrespectful.

Everybody's an a*shole. My biggest complaint is that she didn't make her point in a more creative way--somehow outline the extremism of depiction-fatwas without muddying her point with an enactment of the "crime." Not too bright, because she becomes the story instead of the absurdity of the reaction to depictions, if that was her aim.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

That was a great post Sofyaa +10

Curse my iPod touch! I can't quote the large post I refer to, and it looked like mine would be right below it so my +10 related to it!

Edited September 18, 2010 by ready4ONE

[ready4ONE 5,400]

I'm a recent convert to the process. Now, where is your reasoned response to this thread? I'm not seeing it.

Take the log out of your eye, might make the looking a bit easier.

[Darnell 8,478]

Well I checked the other thread, but nobody has taken up your point. I don't think she was ignorant at all. I think she made a conscious challenge to something she thinks is indefensible. I see the value in that, and I also see her act as pretty stupid. I think going apesh*t over non-Muslims violating a Muslim tenet is nuts, and I think willfully violating things that are held sacred for particular religions is rather disrespectful.

Everybody's an a*shole. My biggest complaint is that she didn't make her point in a more creative way--somehow outline the extremism of depiction-fatwas without muddying her point with an enactment of the "crime." Not too bright, because she becomes the story instead of the absurdity of the reaction to depictions, if that was her aim.

As I said - I have NO COMPASSION for her ignorance.

Look - the krewe at SouthPark pulled the bit, edited it out - it was never presented for broadcast. And that was widely publicized, as well as the reasoning behind it.

If she lives so far in a deep hole without internet connectivity (and I can't think that she does) then I can understand how she 'missed the announcement'. But she doesn't live in a deep hole - the announcement to present 'that episode' with edits was made prior to the broadcast.

I have to claim she's ignorant, because if she did all this with 'full knowledge' - then she's exceptionally stupid, and therefore (IMO) due all that has happened to her. Ignorance is fixable, stupidity is not.

Edited September 18, 2010 by Darnell

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Accusations of violating TOS is one of the very few tricks in your and Mad's books. I really don't get too upset with either of you and have never reported anyone or any topic or post.

Nothing prevents anyone from ignoring posts they disagree with. Same with any topic under discussion.

Nothing prevents anyone from reporting threads they feel violates the TOS, marginalises Muslim vjers and incites hatred and division.

I don't expect you to stop now, but neither will I. Your every post only reinforces the impression that you are bigoted.

[Peikko 1,575]

As I said - I have NO COMPASSION for her ignorance.

Look - the krewe at SouthPark pulled the bit, edited it out - it was never presented for broadcast. And that was widely publicized, as well as the reasoning behind it.

If she lives so far in a deep hole without internet connectivity (and I can't think that she does) then I can understand how she 'missed the announcement'. But she doesn't live in a deep hole - the announcement to present 'that episode' with edits was made prior to the broadcast.

I have to claim she's ignorant, because if she did all this with 'full knowledge' - then she's exceptionally stupid, and therefore (IMO) due all that has happened to her. Ignorance is fixable, stupidity is not.

Are you required to have compassion for her alleged ignorance?

The essential question is, should anyone be driven to hiding in order to avoid possible execution without trial because of an essentially political comment? I would have thought Americans would say no because saying yes is agreeing with those who want to assassinate her; never mind that getting very worked up about it is the exact same outrage that people are suggesting is confined to ignorant muslims.

When I say essentially political comment, I am referring to the fact that the objection is not to the religious view that the prophet muhammed's image is sacred to muslims, after all it is the American way to respect the right of others to hold whatever religious opinions they so choose (interference of another's rights notwithstanding) but the disproportionate response by some muslims (the ones the media loves to show us in times like these) to the 'descicration' of such depictions that are made by non-muslims who have no obligation to adhere to a view they do not share.

Personally of course I hold the opinion that symbols of religion are just that and while I can understand someone being a bit pissed if their religious symbolism is utilized differently than was intended, the fact is that it is just a symbol. There is a line which should never be crossed however, when the wanton destruction of religious symbolism is designed to intimidate, threaten and demean the target group - that is never acceptable.

Edited September 18, 2010 by Madame Cleo

[IncorrectPolitics 26]

These guys who issue fatwas for cartoons obviously have a personality disorder and are completely irrelevant, they shouldn't even be allowed in the news....just like that preacher who wanted to hold the quaran burning (but I guess it sells great advertising). The best way to make an idiot stop being an idiot is to ignore them.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

Nothing prevents anyone from reporting threads they feel violates the TOS, marginalises Muslim vjers and incites hatred and division.

I don't expect you to stop now, but neither will I. Your every post only reinforces the impression that you are bigoted.

And that is why you have not been asked to become a moderator.

I have stated over and over and over, I think Islam even when practiced in it's most peaceful and loving manner is just as fanciful as belief in Christianity or any other religion. I accept any ones right to believe what they wish, and respect their right to worship any make believe diety they desire. I respect absolutely the right to freedom of religion. I reserve the right to criticize, and the right to appreciate any individual aspect of any particular religion. And I am absolute in my belief in freedom of speech, even when it might offend believers in any particular faith.

In topics where persons or places of worship have been harmed I have been very clear in my condemnation of the actions of the perpetrators, and hope they are brought to justice. I do not, have not, nor will I ever condone pursecution of anyone for their belief system.

Your constantly and consistently labeling of me as a bigot is tiresome, but never reported. I don't roll like that.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

These guys who issue fatwas for cartoons obviously have a personality disorder and are completely irrelevant, they shouldn't even be allowed in the news....just like that preacher who wanted to hold the quaran burning (but I guess it sells great advertising). The best way to make an idiot stop being an idiot is to ignore them.

This particular fatwa issuing idiot is American born, with ties to 911 highjackers, Fort Hood, the recent Time Square bombing and has a very large following online. English speaking nut job who is able to communicate the Radical Islamic message in the English language.

It isn't simply the media who takes him seriously he is the first US citizen to be targeted for death or capture by the Feds.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

You defend propaganda and you insinuate that Muslims on VJ owe you should justify themselves to your satisfaction.

[IncorrectPolitics 26]

This particular fatwa issuing idiot is American born, with ties to 911 highjackers, Fort Hood, the recent Time Square bombing and has a very large following online. English speaking nut job who is able to communicate the Radical Islamic message in the English language.

It isn't simply the media who takes him seriously he is the first US citizen to be targeted for death or capture by the Feds.

I don't know anything about the guy....but when I hear a fatwa was issued of a cartoon I automatically think of an idiot with the brain of a 2 year old. There are much bigger issues in the world that people could be tackling than trying to prevent a stupid cartoon from being drawn or calling for retaliation over a cartoon

[IncorrectPolitics 26]

You defend propaganda and you insinuate that Muslims on VJ owe you should justify themselves to your satisfaction.

Yeah I noticed that about quite a few VJ members

[evli1966 88]

I can't see how a demand for such a thing is within TOS guidlines - it's by its very nature discriminatory, you shouldn't even be required to say no to such outlandish demands.

Cleo Clueless but your acting to sensitive to a legitimate question.

Actions have consequences, for sure. Just as they do when an American practices their right to free speech, then suffers because of it. Engaging a right doesn't confer protection from blow back any opposition is prepared to level.

That being said, I do have compassion for her. She was naive, no doubt, but artists usually do operate in their own worlds. I am also split, feeling that people need to show more respect for the religious beliefs of others. I don't appreciate people defaming the Quran, our prophets, our traditions for any reason.

I feel the same way about the abuse of Jesus in vulgar displays like Piss Christ, a crucifix immersed in a container of urine and called "art". Yet, while they make offend the moral sensitivities of some, they are firmly supported by the First Amendment of the US Constitution.

While I am a supporter of the theory of free speech, the practice is often worrisome. Does Anwar al-Awlaki, an American citizen, have the right to call for the death of this woman? Under the law, he just may; even some vile types of speech are protected, within limits. Inciting others to act upon the call crosses the limits of his right to speak. al-Awlaki knows that the very issuance of a death fatwa will encourage someone to carry it out, if possible. That is wrong.

What is also wrong is to act as judge and executioner. God tells us repeatedly that there will be those who are misguided in the world, and that we are to encourage them to change their ways. But, we are to do so gently and with grace. If we find any good in them, to show mercy and forgiveness toward them, as He would toward us. If they do not wish to respect God and His authority, He will judge them and determine their fate. It is not up to us to declare war against those who do not attack us first. Molly did something distasteful, arrogant and disrespectful, but it certainly does not rise to a declaration of war on Islam.

Our Nabi (pbuh) did not enjoy punishing people, even those who admitted their sins and sought punishment. There are many stories about how he turned his back on confessors, offering them an opportunity to avoid the death or disfigurement that would be prescribed for their acts. Justice required a chance for them to admit their flaws, then continue on mindful not to repeat them again. A central theme of the Quran, the central theme of my life, is that we do justice, even if it is hard, even if it causes division in our homes, even if it brings punishment upon us. We must do justice first and foremost, for we cannot know what is in a person's heart as God does, but we do know what is in ours.

O you who believe! stand out firmly for God, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of any people make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear God. For He is well-acquainted with all that you do. [sûrah al-Mâ'idah: 8]

The reason why I utter a constant refrain that Muslims who support or commit terrorism against innocents are not acting in the name of Islam is because their violence is antithetical to the core of the Message of the Quran. Its Message is, for all intents and purposes, the same as the Message of Jesus: Allow love and acceptance of others to fill your heart. God could have made us all believe the same, but He made us different so that we would have to find a way to strive together toward Him in peace. Jews, Christians and Muslims are all ahl al kitab, People of the Book, and brothers to each other.

I do feel great compassion for Molly and I will make dua for her safety until it is assured. She has apologized, begged for mercy and forgiveness and I love her as God wants me to. I have empathy for her so that I can honestly humble myself at my time of Judgement, which will inevitably come. How can I do less and claim to know God, to serve Him, to want to please Him by serving others? I will also continue to pray for those misguided Muslims who taint and subvert the Will of God by hurting others. I am not perfect, I am not powerful, but I can do this.

We all carry our own burdens, but can make a choice to take on the burdens of others who are weaker and need support. I gladly accept the fact that the bad acts of those who commit evil in the name of my faith are my burden, as I always have in my work and my life, and always will. I'm just so tired of having to profess it to those who doubt that Muslims are capable of mercy, of doing justice or loving others who are not like themselves. We do. We must. To love others is to be loved by God, for they, too, are God's creation. We are in this together and no one gets out alive.

When we close our hearts to others, our eyes are closed to see the beauty of God in them. The message of Islam, Judaism, Christianity and all other religions is one of love and service to others. If God decides to care and love and feed even those who deny his existence, then who are we to deprive someone else of our love just because he is of different color or speaks a different language or is born in a different country or prays to the same God but in a different direction, using different words? - Dr. Shahid Athar, October 21, 2001

I hope that helps.

Fantastic post Soff of course it is not something you have to tell us but by doing so you bridge a possible communication gap of how at least 1 person lives his/her live following path of Islam.

Well I checked the other thread, but nobody has taken up your point. I don't think she was ignorant at all. I think she made a conscious challenge to something she thinks is indefensible. I see the value in that, and I also see her act as pretty stupid. I think going apesh*t over non-Muslims violating a Muslim tenet is nuts, and I think willfully violating things that are held sacred for particular religions is rather disrespectful.

Everybody's an a*shole. My biggest complaint is that she didn't make her point in a more creative way--somehow outline the extremism of depiction-fatwas without muddying her point with an enactment of the "crime." Not too bright, because she becomes the story instead of the absurdity of the reaction to depictions, if that was her aim.

I do not agree with cartoonist most of the time as with htis one.

I lie you post as well and agree we are all jerks in some way.

Nothing prevents anyone from reporting threads they feel violates the TOS, marginalises Muslim vjers and incites hatred and division.

I don't expect you to stop now, but neither will I. Your every post only reinforces the impression that you are bigoted.

You and cleo need a forum just fo rthe 2 of you and see how many people join you or at least how long the ones that do last.

These guys who issue fatwas for cartoons obviously have a personality disorder and are completely irrelevant, they shouldn't even be allowed in the news....just like that preacher who wanted to hold the quaran burning (but I guess it sells great advertising). The best way to make an idiot stop being an idiot is to ignore them.

I like this post as well.

I like the posts of Soff, IP and twowls becasue they answer specifically, honestly, with out blame or malice.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

How is singling out Muslim VJers to answer for the actions of extremist nutjobs in any way "legitimate"?