The eternal flame of Muslim outrage

[ready4ONE 5,400]

Time will tell.

You have my solemn word.

[Peikko 1,575]

They might not be Islams proudest product, but their entire system of government is religious based. And unfortunately that religion is Islam.

Are they a perfect example of the many flavors of Islam, some none too savory? I will give you that. But I won't give you the easy 'They aren't really Muslim' out.

Do you not know anything about Iran at all? It is extremely difficult to have a sensible view about the drivers behind the extremism in Iran unless you understand its history - using religion as a tool of suppression is not new, it's not pretty and it can be very effective.

Or, are you suggesting that in the wrong hands christianity can't be used as a tool for suppression? Do I really need to remind you that reversing Roe and Wade for example would lead to the suppression of women's rights? Do you have any idea what kind of society we could be living in if we allowed those who believe in a literal interpretation of the bible to dictate our laws and operate our judicial system?

You will probably poo poo that, and suggest it could not happen because in the west we are too sophisticated to allow that to happen. Perhaps, but mostly the difference is not allowing the church to be part of the political system. When western societies separated the role of the church and the state, the church has slowly (and much to the disappointment of many) ceased to have a day to day influence on judicial and political structures. That is the biggest difference or can you really not see how this works at all?

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

I am a fundamentalist. Practicing Muslims are fundamentalists. It doesn't have the same connotation in Islam as it does in Christianity, where the term was originally applied. Terrorists and their sympathizers don't interpret parts of the Quran literally, they interpret it poorly and in a self-serving manner, and I have no doubt that they do it on purpose. Terrorism is a grab for power, not a spiritual experience.

Then they must be doing a pretty darn good job in their power grab, because they've got millions of followers. Jim Jones couldn't have dreamed of being so successful. Millions of people with an interpretation that compels them to violence is a threat.

Like the Bible, the Quran and ahadith are not books you understand by reading them. People study them both for a lifetime in their original languages and still have doubts about the context of passages or the true meaning of a word that has meaning meanings. A casual reading would not be sufficient to form a substantive or authoritative opinion, but opinions are part of free speech. It's just sad that so many of them are negative when there is so much beauty in Islam.

In that event, Allah did a poor job in composing his book of "clear understanding". I read the English translation and I believe I understand what it means. OBL reads the same book in Arabic, and his understanding is pretty much the same as mine, the difference being that he believes it's divine and I do not. I don't see any need to spend a lifetime studying it when it's reasonably clear on it's face. The fact that you believe it requires a lifetime of study indicates to me that you don't accept that it could mean what it appears to mean, and that Allah has, for some reason, intentionally obfuscated the truth. Lazy people, like me and OBL, are left with what appears to be the obvious meaning.

The ahadith are narrative, and perfectly clear. No interpretation is required, though some rationalization might be needed. Some of the hadiths don't exactly portray Muhammad in the best light.

Here is the flaw in that position. Christianity has many violent passages, we agree on that. If terrorists seized on the examples in those verses, they would have a Biblical basis for their claim, but they would be cherry-picking the Bible for what they needed to justify their claim. That would not be Christianity.

The same is true of Muslim terrorists. They are cherry-picking verses to justify their acts of violence, but while the Quran and Muslim history puts those verses in context, terrorists don't. I mean, seriously. How ignorant do you have to be to believe that out of a book with more than 6,000 verses, less than a dozen are the only ones dealing with warfare and the oppression of women and non-Muslims define the faith of more than a billion people? If that was how it worked, the Quran would be as small as Jet magazine.

On a practical level, it's pretty insulting to tell your Muslim neighbors that you can't determine whether extremists are the model Muslims or if peaceful Muslims just don't know how to observe their faith properly. It says that Muslims should be violent and tyrannical to be Muslims, as if the lowest common denominator is all we deserve to be.

Fair enough. Now here is the flaw in your position. Many people who claim to Christian leaders, some who even claim to be prophets, have done exactly what you say the Muslim terrorists are doing. They cherry picked Biblical verses and interpret them in a self-serving fashion. They haven't been nearly as successful as the terrorist leaders in recruiting the faithful to follow them. Why do you suppose that is?

Well, Christians don't have source material that's nearly as compelling as Muslims. They don't have a book that their followers will believe was written by God Himself, in His own words. They don't have verses that can be read precisely as they were written, and presumed to mean precisely what they appear to mean without interpretation, which compel the believer to do as the charismatic leader wants them to do. If one actually wanted to craft a book that could be used as justification for holy war, you'd be hard pressed to do better than the Quran.

I disagree with your premise that most western societies operate on that premise. There are no Islamic countries anyway.

This is the same weak excuse that has been emanating from most of the Muslim world. It amounts to little more than denial that a problem even exists. Iran? Yeah, they're oppressive and dangerous, but they're run by a handful of lunatic ayatollahs who don't know jack about the "real" Islam. Saudi Arabia? Yeah, brutally oppressive and barbaric, but that's because of the twisted implementation of shariah imposed by the petty dictators who call themselves the royal family. These aren't Islamic countries because the "real" Islam is beautiful.

[Peikko 1,575]

SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE is the answer to all your questions. Christianity is no better and no worse then the muslim religion and has successfully been used as a tool of suppression. You even have christian fundamentalists here in the US (far more than there are in European states and with more influence here than there) and I can well imagine how 'free' I would be if one of those charlies was allowed the power of an Ayatollah within the US political system. It would not be pretty - although some would have you believe it would be fabulous, not at all like those horrid muslims.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE is the answer to all your questions. Christianity is no better and no worse then the muslim religion and has successfully been used as a tool of suppression. You even have christian fundamentalists here in the US (far more than there are in European states and with more influence here than there) and I can well imagine how 'free' I would be if one of those charlies was allowed the power of an Ayatollah within the US political system. It would not be pretty - although some would have you believe it would be fabulous, not at all like those horrid muslims.

Christianity in the West has evolved for the most part. It's still a religion which imo is a crutch and out dated...but it does conform to a secular state in a weird and twisted way. Not so for most of the Muslim country's. Try and name predominantly Muslim country's other than maybe Bosnia where people...especially women have the same freedoms as men. It doesn't exist as far as I have witnessed.

[Peikko 1,575]

Christianity in the West has evolved for the most part. It's still a religion which imo is a crutch and out dated...but it does conform to a secular state in a weird and twisted way. Not so for most of the Muslim country's. Try and name predominantly Muslim country's other than maybe Bosnia where people...especially women have the same freedoms as men. It doesn't exist as far as I have witnessed.

No it hasn't. Chrisitainty is only as good as its separation from political influence.

[cedwards001 18]

Sofiyya,

I want to quote a part of an earlier post from you:

"Terrorism is a grab for power, not a spiritual experience"

Come on, you should know better then that

For the terrorists, it IS a spiritual experience. What do you think the 9/11 terrorists were expecting before they crashed the airplanes? They were expecting to go to heaven surrounded by virgins. How often do you hear terrorists scream "Allahu Akbar!" (God is Great) on their OWN videos when they behead their captives or commit other terrorist acts? They don't do this ####### for you or me. They do it for the mighty Allah!

Edited September 13, 2010 by cedwards001

[Sofiyya 1,687]

They might not be Islams proudest product, but their entire system of government is religious based. And unfortunately that religion is Islam.

Are they a perfect example of the many flavors of Islam, some none too savory? I will give you that. But I won't give you the easy 'They aren't really Muslim' out.

Their law is not religion based. Most of it is culturally based. Iran is predominately Shia, most Muslims are Sunni, so there are lots of differences on top of that.

[Peikko 1,575]

Sofiyya,

I want to quote a part of an earlier post from you:

"Terrorism is a grab for power, not a spiritual experience"

Come on, you should know better then that

For the terrorists, it IS a spiritual experience. What do you think the 9/11 terrorists were expecting before they crashed the airplanes? They were expecting to go to heaven surrounded by virgins. How often do you hear terrorists scream "Allahu Akbar!" (God is Great) on their OWN videos when they behead their captives or commit other terrorist acts? They don't do this ####### for you or me. They do it for the mighty Allah!

What religious belief do you adhere to? Zealots are easy to manipulate, I wonder if you are?

[Ban Hammer 13,334]

Whatever the eff that is.

it sounds kinda kinky

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Biggot isn't polling well so you whip out your thesaurus and come up with haters...

Anticipated!

Bigot, extremist, hater - take your pick. Doesn't change my opinion.

[SMR 368]

o kidding involved. There's nothing wrong with Islam. Don't blame the religion, or we'd all be doing bad stuff. Check your history. Non-Muslims have committed violence in the name of their faiths, too. Probably will again.

The post you replied to was right on target and you completely missed the point. The existence of Islamic extremists in not on its own convincing evidence against Islam. Throughout history, practically every religion and belief system has been used to encourage violence and extremism. To varying degrees, this continues today.

But the damning evidence against Islam is not Islam extremism but rather Islam civilization, if it can even be called that. Countries founded on Islamic culture and belief structure have horrible human rights records, contribute very little economically or technologically (beyond the extraction of natural resources which they happened to end up building on top of), and are universally oppressive and destructive. Furthermore, many of these countries have financial and other ties to Islamic extremist groups.

Before you go ahead and deny this I want you to name a country that is majority Islam that has a reasonable human rights record, has a free form of government, and has a modern economy not based on oil. In fact, can you even name an Islam country that has any of those things? I understand that there are other factors involved and countries vary. But when you're batting .000, you're doing something wrong.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The issues in those countries have a lot to do with history and the fact that they were conquered repeatedly by internal elements, and by (for example) the Mongols. It isn't possible to have a progressive society against a background like that.

Incidentally, this is much the same reason why a lot of ex-colonial African nations have endemic problems. Those countries and peoples haven't been able to determine their own destiny.

[New Beginnings 32]

Sofiyya if this were a simple debate over- which faith is without passages... that could inflame followers.. you would have a point.

This debate is about the actions of people .

To make your case you will need to show that there are extremist Christians..... from every corner of Christianity (wherever it is found) which cause disruption and even death to others as well as those of their own faith.

The fair truth is, two hundred years from now, it might be another faith which is at war with so many across the globe, but for today .....and at this time. That faith is coming from a segment of Islam.

Even in this country which has had only isolated attacks since 9/11,... had terro-rings not been broken, plans not been thwarted and plotters not arrests arrested thousands more would have been killed.

One could say, the FBI and other agencies have been the best friend of Moderate Muslims by preventing so many of these attacks.

There is no parallel at this time between the acts of mislead Christians and mislead Muslims.

I'm Christian and that is actually an incredibly simple thing to do! Lets talk KKK who believe that all people except Christians and whites are the scum of the earth and should be killed, lets talk Hitler, lets talk the extremist Christian group in the south that are blowing up Women's clinics because they perform abortions. How about the Irish Catholic/Protestant conflicts?

I could go farther back in history and we could talk about the crusades, or the spanish inquisition or even the protestant witch trials. This stuff is happening around the world and in our own backyards

[Craneman 2]

You need to be more specific, to which hatred do you refer?

You really expect those who buy into the hatred to get this? You expect too much.