No excuse for anti-Muslim prejudice

[Darknight 0]

If you don't like "her", then why are you moving here?

Because I'm in love with a citizen of the country?

Wouldn't it make more sense for your SO to move wherever you are?

No - not when she has the family and the house and the attachments.

Guessing your country doesn't believe in unilateral and unrestricted freedom....

No, of course it doesn't. I'm from the UK - there are few if any countries in Europe which even profess to. Of course, the USA professes to believe in it, but does not actually take steps to make that belief practical.

How rude of the founders of the US to want to be free.

Not rude, misguided and bloody.

"The tree of liberty must be refeshed with the blood of" who?

Do we really think that "defending liberty with our lives" is a case of finding those people who might want to take away our freedoms and destroying them and risking getting destroyed in return?

It is not simply that at all - true liberty is that everyone should be allowed to say what they want, with the risks inherent in that. Have you seen the closing scene of "The American President"? Where Andrew Shepherd says that the symbol of the liberty of the USA is not just the flag, but rather someone burning that flag and having the freedom to do so?

Make no mistake, I do not believe in unrestricted freedom of expression or movement - I stand fully behind the actions taken by anti-terrorist officers in restricting my movements and what I can take on a plane. I have no issues with the US government saying it is a Federal offence to speak about assassinating the President.

But don't tell me that is liberty - it's not. That isn't liberty, that is control and the errosion of liberty in order to protect lives.

Which is more important; the lives of US Citizens or liberty and the concept that all men are equal? Or is there a balance to be struck? The Constitution makes it clear in its first ammendment that freedom of speech is paramount, and that is the watchword.

I don't agree with it - I think there are things which should never be said and have no right being said. But I do accept and understand that if too many freedoms are lost, then the USA wouldn't be who she is.

I think you have missed my point - you are responding (as I suspected someone would) with the typical attitude of "If you don't like freedom, why are you coming here?" (Answer, I'm not moving to the USA, I'm marrying my fiancee - the fact she lives there is irrelevant). You also appear to be focusing on the fact I don't like the unrestricted freedom implied by the Constitution of the USA - when I in fact spent the majority of my post arguing for the retention of those freedoms.

I am defending freedoms I don't believe in - freedoms that would, if carried to their logical extreme, place the lives of myself and everyone I love at risk. I am defending them simply because I know that if we begin to remove them then the USA won't be what she is now, and I am not prepared to let her citizens walk blindly into a world where they loose their right to die for liberty.

Dying for liberty is not getting shot in Iraq - it is getting killed by a terrorist because you allowed him the freedom to preach hate.

[PlatyPius 5]

I was just curious.....

I don't believe the US is perfect. I don't believe any country or government is perfect or the "ideal". I am also not a flag-waving ultra-patriot. I detest Bush and all that he has done to our country and its relations with other countries. I agree that the US cannot have complete and total freedom. To do so would change the US from a democratic republic to a state of anarchy. Untethered freedom is a myth, and always has been. It became more of a myth with each new tax and each new law.

Yes, we can travel freely, we can say what we want (unless it offends the PC Police and they say something about it), we can go to school where we want, and we can work where we want. But we also pay and pay and pay. Federal income tax, state income tax, county income tax, city income tax, gas tax, "sin tax", property tax, sales tax, fast food tax, hotel tax, ad infinitum. Life here isn't that much different from life in the UK, really. You have essentially the same freedoms that we do. You just don't go around making war on other countries these days.

[Darknight 0]

I was just curious.....

I was just answering - don't for a second confuse the fact that I am brutally honest and open and never pull punches with a personal dislike or an attack. I wouldn't personally attack you - I can't, I don't know you.

I don't believe the US is perfect.

It's pretty obvious you don't.

Untethered freedom is a myth

Not so - untethered freedom is the natural state of things, and is - in fact - what every nation has. It's a complex issue, but consider the fact you have the FREEDOM to do what you like; you will just be punished for it.

What we have in every nation is total freedom but various consequences which are put in place by governments and other powerful individuals. To take a silly example, a child has the freedom to speak to whomever he likes in the playground. But, if he speaks to the nerdy kid, he might get wedgied or ostracised.

A man has the freedom to speak to and offer to buy a drink for any woman he likes - try it with a protective man's girlfriend and he might be spitting teeth.

Life here isn't that much different from life in the UK, really. You have essentially the same freedoms that we do.

Wholy agreed - but we don't have the myth of unrestricted freedom which is held up as the ideal.

My issue with the Consitution is that it attempts to legislate liberty - which is impossible. The laws designed, all over the world, to preserve liberty do so by threatening to curtail the liberty of those who might curtail liberty. It is rather like making war to end violence, or screwing for virginity.

What such actions do is benefit a sector of society at the expense of another sector; the laws in the USA (for example) defend those who follow arbitary laws against those who do not. Of course, the moment the ideals of the Consitution are brought into contact with the reality of the desires of the average citizen (of any nation) is the moment people get fed up and angry. Few people are prepared to accept liberty as anything except a banner and a badge; they are not prepared for the blood of them and their loved ones to flow merely as a sacrifice; martyrdom is always more preferable and never on your own soil.

You (the UK) just don't go around making war on other countries these days.

Actually, not true. We have been involved in more wars than any other nation in the world during the 20th century.

[ual777 0]

First, if a person attempts or carries out a terror attack on the United States, all immigration from that country will be suspended for one year per person from that country.

What will you do in the case of acts of domestic terrorism carried out by United States Citizens?

unless they want to talk to us about $10 a barrel oil.

So, your plan has bribery and corruption built in at the lowest level.

Second, any man/woman preaching the use of mass VIOLENCE/TERROR tactics against American citizens or having any implication in a terror plot will, after trial, be stripped of their citizenship and deported.

So, i) You will remove the constitutional right to free speech the USA enjoys and ii) you will strip people of their citizenship and deport them after the trial . . . making no reference to the result of said trial. So, if the person is found innocent, the implication is they will still be deported.

Sounds like you just destroyed due process too.

Third, any person publically praising the DESTRUCTION of the United States of America, or publically praising those who have killed Americans will be charged with sedition and imprisoned for a period of no less than 5 years.

Charged and imprisoned - no mention of a trial. Due process just vanished again, along with free speech.

If the person is not a citizen, the sentance will be 10 years followed by deportion.

So, no reference to a trial again - you are now holding citizens of a foreign power without trial. The USA does have a good track record with this, to be fair, and has been doing it for some time.

You are also now punishing the non-US citizens more harshly than your own citizens - that is racism and in direct opposition to the words "All men are created equal".

Fourth, any organization whose leadership promotes the formation of a religious state/government in the United States of America or promotes violence against American citizens will immediatly be labeled as a terrorist organization and the members responsible will be jailed for sedition.

Not be tried for sedition? Just jailed? Again, violation of free speech and due process.

One, the United States of America will cut off all fianancial and military aid to the state of Israel.

A good idea.

Two, the United States of America will instate a trade embargo on Israel unless they provide immediate due process to ALL persons currently imprisoned, and will be subject to US/UN inspections to make sure this is carried out.

So, the US (who have several people imprisoned without charge or trial) and who (according to the rest of your suggestions) have abandoned due process, will determine "due process"?

Three, the United States of America will hold trail for all prisoners currently imprisoned in Club Gitmo (in which they will be released to the country of their arrest or given a sentance followed by deportation) within a period of 24 months.

Oh, good - so, the people currently arrested get trials, but no-one else?

Four, military equipment/ foreign aid will only be provided to Israel provided that they conform to item two in its complete form.

What's the worry about Israel? How about the support to the right-wing rebels in South America and the anti-Islamics in Africa? How about them?

Your policies sound populist - and would certainly get votes from middle American soccer moms. You would certainly get to Congress with them - but you have just trampled over the things that make your nation what it is.

I am moving to the USA - despite the fact I consider the central premise of the Constitution to be a hideous and horrible one. The US Constitution is a terrible document and if I could destroy it, I would.

But, it is what makes your nation what it is. Without it, you wouldn't be the USA.

Now, do you really think your country can be saved by destroying what she is? I don't.

Of course, I don't think your country as she stands is worth saving - but neither will I raise a hand against her. Because, despite the fact I detest the concept of unilateral and unrestricted freedom implied by the Constitution, I do accept that a foreign power has a right to self-determination and to act as she wishes.

But your policies would make the USA into 48 contiguous States, a few islands and an ex-bit of Canada bound by something else - she certainly wouldn't be the USA any longer.

I don't like her, but I won't stand idly by while you plot her assassination.

Your levels of higher thinking are lacking to say the least. This plan I presented was obviously made in respect to our current laws and Constitution or else I would have said "trash the Constitution."

Second, it does in no way shape or form "assassinate" my country. It also makes me sad that such a hateful person as yourself is moving here.

Third, OBVIOUSLY if I said there was a trail, and if the said person was found innocent there would be NO reprocussions.

Fourth, judging by your comments on my plan it is glaringly obvious that you cannot see how they correlate to one another, and you respond by attacking what I don't say rather than what I do. I will try to spell it out for you, all existing laws will be honored in this plan. Further, if I say that all inmates at Club Gitmo will be tried in 18 months, what makes you think that the new ones won't? That makes no sense at all.

The proposed laws trample over NOTHING. It is fair and just. Further, the second point is not taking away free speech. Free speech stops when a person insights violence against American citizens. Your free speech rights STOP when they trample on the freedoms of other citizens.

Finally, the Consitution is the greatest document ever written. It provides equality for everyone and protects their liberties. Why else do you think everyone and their cousin wants to move here? Im sorry you hate it, but I suppose judging by your comments the Third Reich or the U.S.S.R. would suit you better.

Do me a favor, and assume that all laws would stay the same, correlate that to what I wrote, link the points together and get back to me before trying to warp it into something its not.

First, if a person attempts or carries out a terror attack on the United States, all immigration from that country will be suspended for one year per person from that country.

What will you do in the case of acts of domestic terrorism carried out by United States Citizens?

unless they want to talk to us about $10 a barrel oil.

So, your plan has bribery and corruption built in at the lowest level.

Second, any man/woman preaching the use of mass VIOLENCE/TERROR tactics against American citizens or having any implication in a terror plot will, after trial, be stripped of their citizenship and deported.

So, i) You will remove the constitutional right to free speech the USA enjoys and ii) you will strip people of their citizenship and deport them after the trial . . . making no reference to the result of said trial. So, if the person is found innocent, the implication is they will still be deported.

Sounds like you just destroyed due process too.

Third, any person publically praising the DESTRUCTION of the United States of America, or publically praising those who have killed Americans will be charged with sedition and imprisoned for a period of no less than 5 years.

Charged and imprisoned - no mention of a trial. Due process just vanished again, along with free speech.

If the person is not a citizen, the sentance will be 10 years followed by deportion.

So, no reference to a trial again - you are now holding citizens of a foreign power without trial. The USA does have a good track record with this, to be fair, and has been doing it for some time.

You are also now punishing the non-US citizens more harshly than your own citizens - that is racism and in direct opposition to the words "All men are created equal".

Fourth, any organization whose leadership promotes the formation of a religious state/government in the United States of America or promotes violence against American citizens will immediatly be labeled as a terrorist organization and the members responsible will be jailed for sedition.

Not be tried for sedition? Just jailed? Again, violation of free speech and due process.

One, the United States of America will cut off all fianancial and military aid to the state of Israel.

A good idea.

Two, the United States of America will instate a trade embargo on Israel unless they provide immediate due process to ALL persons currently imprisoned, and will be subject to US/UN inspections to make sure this is carried out.

So, the US (who have several people imprisoned without charge or trial) and who (according to the rest of your suggestions) have abandoned due process, will determine "due process"?

Three, the United States of America will hold trail for all prisoners currently imprisoned in Club Gitmo (in which they will be released to the country of their arrest or given a sentance followed by deportation) within a period of 24 months.

Oh, good - so, the people currently arrested get trials, but no-one else?

Four, military equipment/ foreign aid will only be provided to Israel provided that they conform to item two in its complete form.

What's the worry about Israel? How about the support to the right-wing rebels in South America and the anti-Islamics in Africa? How about them?

Your policies sound populist - and would certainly get votes from middle American soccer moms. You would certainly get to Congress with them - but you have just trampled over the things that make your nation what it is.

I am moving to the USA - despite the fact I consider the central premise of the Constitution to be a hideous and horrible one. The US Constitution is a terrible document and if I could destroy it, I would.

But, it is what makes your nation what it is. Without it, you wouldn't be the USA.

Now, do you really think your country can be saved by destroying what she is? I don't.

Of course, I don't think your country as she stands is worth saving - but neither will I raise a hand against her. Because, despite the fact I detest the concept of unilateral and unrestricted freedom implied by the Constitution, I do accept that a foreign power has a right to self-determination and to act as she wishes.

But your policies would make the USA into 48 contiguous States, a few islands and an ex-bit of Canada bound by something else - she certainly wouldn't be the USA any longer.

I don't like her, but I won't stand idly by while you plot her assassination.

Your levels of higher thinking are lacking to say the least. This plan I presented was obviously made in respect to our current laws and Constitution or else I would have said "trash the Constitution."

Second, it does in no way shape or form "assassinate" my country. It also makes me sad that such a hateful person as yourself is moving here.

Third, OBVIOUSLY if I said there was a trail, and if the said person was found innocent there would be NO reprocussions.

Fourth, judging by your comments on my plan it is glaringly obvious that you cannot see how they correlate to one another, and you respond by attacking what I don't say rather than what I do. I will try to spell it out for you, all existing laws will be honored in this plan. Further, if I say that all inmates at Club Gitmo will be tried in 18 months, what makes you think that the new ones won't? That makes no sense at all.

The proposed laws trample over NOTHING. It is fair and just. Further, the second point is not taking away free speech. Free speech stops when a person insights violence against American citizens. Your free speech rights STOP when they trample on the freedoms of other citizens.

Finally, the Consitution is the greatest document ever written. It provides equality for everyone and protects their liberties. Why else do you think everyone and their cousin wants to move here? Im sorry you hate it, but I suppose judging by your comments the Third Reich or the U.S.S.R. would suit you better.

Do me a favor, and assume that all laws would stay the same, correlate that to what I wrote, link the points together and get back to me before trying to warp it into something its not.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

UAL, you fail quoting 101.

[ual777 0]

UAL, you fail quoting 101.

Do I pass now?

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

UAL, you fail quoting 101.

Do I pass now?

yup!!!

[ual777 0]

Oh and Darknight, tell me which "right-wing" rebels the U.S. is currently supporting in South America.

[mawilson 2,133]

Which is more important; the lives of US Citizens or liberty and the concept that all men are equal?

Liberty is unquestionably more important. Take away the liberty and the lives become worth nothing.

[mawilson 2,133]

My issue with the Consitution is that it attempts to legislate liberty - which is impossible. The laws designed, all over the world, to preserve liberty do so by threatening to curtail the liberty of those who might curtail liberty. It is rather like making war to end violence, or screwing for virginity.

If you think the Consitution is a bad idea, just look at the UK government destroying

civil liberties with impunity, eroding the country into an authoritarian police state

without any checks and balances whatsoever.

Edited August 18, 2006 by mawilson

[ceriserose 1]

My issue with the Consitution is that it attempts to legislate liberty - which is impossible. The laws designed, all over the world, to preserve liberty do so by threatening to curtail the liberty of those who might curtail liberty. It is rather like making war to end violence, or screwing for virginity.

If you think the Consitution is a bad idea, just look at the UK government destroying

civil liberties with impunity, eroding the country into an authoritarian police state

without any checks and balances whatsoever.

The comment you edited out made me spew water on my laptop.

[Mirorgate 0]

The comment you edited out made me spew water on my laptop.

I MISSED THAT!

can you spew water all over the laptop again??

[mawilson 2,133]

The comment you edited out made me spew water on my laptop.

LOL - sorry

[ceriserose 1]

The comment you edited out made me spew water on my laptop.

I MISSED THAT!

can you spew water all over the laptop again??

I have a penchant for doing it frequently when reading this site. So yes, I'm sure I will.

The comment you edited out made me spew water on my laptop.

LOL - sorry

Now why don't I believe you?

[lostinlove228 0]

I didn't read this whole thread. My ADD started kicking in but if the "American people" don't want to live amongs us Muslims, Then Just Give us a couple of States. We will Tak Michigan and Texas. Then we will leave all the "Americans" by alone. They don't have to be our Neighbors.

Hey, here is the rule! If someone don't like get them back by not licking them either. If someone don't like me because of my Ethnicity or Religion, then they are not worth the spit off the bottom of my shoe. They can jump of a cliff for all I care. But nobody is going to take away my civil rights or my God given rights as a human being.