Here's What's the Matter With Kansas

[HAL 9000 96]

When I taught it wasn't above me to get a second job. Lucky me I was in a position where I could do this without disrupting my personal life.

That still doesn't excuse the 'system' for valuating idiots in high paying jobs with little to no positive impact on the betterment of society over teachers that assist that same society in creating learned individuals. We get what we pay for.

[chri'stina 190]

Poverty in the US? Drive through any inner city on a nice summer afternoon.

It's like poverty is on parade.

I don't deny inner city issues. But he is obviously exaggerating by saying most of this country is living in what is considered 3rd world abroad.

Edited September 10, 2010 by chri'stina

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I agree with this, actually. However, it is important for people to learn how to manage their skillsets and their careers. The days of the paternalistic company or union are long-gone. And I know it may sound like a lot of work but it isn't. Managing your own career is not that difficult. One of the biggest barriers to it is the fact that quality healthcare is still linked to large-group policies. Thankfully, that goes away starting 2014. One at a time, all those barriers that prevent you from being an entrepreneur-of-one are coming down and you will no longer need the paternalistic union or company to "care" for you.

Unions came about because of a long history of worker exploitation. IMO, believing that we've somehow progressed beyond such exploits and no longer need collective bargaining, but can better rely on market driven value is unrealistic. But I will add that I don't think unions are the answer-all either or that they are perfect. So far, I have yet to see any real bargaining tool that an employee has that isn't at the mercy of the market. Certainly the market should have impact on wages and benefits, but it shouldn't be the end all, especially in the cutthroat world of corporate mergers and takeovers which stifle or all but eliminate competition.

Edited September 10, 2010 by El Buscador

[^_^ 5,021]

When I taught it wasn't above me to get a second job. Lucky me I was in a position where I could do this without disrupting my personal life.

That still doesn't excuse the 'system' for valuating idiots in high paying jobs with little to no positive impact on the betterment of society over teachers that assist that same society in creating learned individuals. We get what we pay for.

Your salary is and should be a function of how many people like you exist in the labor pool and how much value you can add to your employer. In the case of a 2nd grade regular-ed (not special) teacher, the size of that labor pool is tremendous. They do add a lot of value as well, but there's just no getting around the fact that there are lots and lots of people who can do that job.

[Heracles 417]

When I taught it wasn't above me to get a second job. Lucky me I was in a position where I could do this without disrupting my personal life.

That still doesn't excuse the 'system' for valuating idiots in high paying jobs with little to no positive impact on the betterment of society over teachers that assist that same society in creating learned individuals. We get what we pay for.

'The Situation' earned $5 million last financial year. Or how about dumbfuck atheletes or entertainers that earn tens of millions for what. My sperm has higher cognitive power than a entire NFL team combined.

That alone illustrates where a country's priorities lies. Ironically a similar situation found in numerous third world countries.

[HAL 9000 96]

Your salary is and should be a function of how many people like you exist in the labor pool and how much value you can add to your employer. In the case of a 2nd grade regular-ed (not special) teacher, the size of that labor pool is tremendous. They do add a lot of value as well, but there's just no getting around the fact that there are lots and lots of people who can do that job.

It is such a function. It should also be valued by its contribution to society. Perhaps if it where, society itself could take better steps to ensure higher standards for such contributors.

[^_^ 5,021]

It should also be valued by its contribution to society.

I disagree, because that is am ambiguous, difficult to quantify and therefore subject to abuse.

[Heracles 417]

How many US cities have you visited exactly? Do you take road trips or just fly everywhere? I have taken many road trips up and down the east coast between FL and NY, plus road trips towards the west all the way up to Illinois. I haven't been as far west as California yet, but this side of the country, I have driven all over it. Not sure what you are talking about.

Quite a few in the east coast and a number in the Mid-west, not too many on the west coast. I did drive in south central though. Not only cities but even towns. I usually drive as i prefer to see the countryside, US airlines also suck. It's also why I comment on the grade of the roads here, which is a whole other topic.

I'll ask a question of my own, how many international first world cities have you been to?

[^_^ 5,021]

The member El Buscador cannot receive any new messages

empty your box

[chri'stina 190]

Quite a few in the east coast and a number in the Mid-west, not too many on the west coast. I did drive in south central though. Not only cities but even towns. I usually drive as i prefer to see the countryside, US airlines also suck. It's also why I comment on the grade of the roads here, which is a whole other topic.

I'll ask a question of my own, how many international first world cities have you been to?

Paris. Only the airport. But I was not impressed with their old bathrooms. And they did have the really cool new section back then, fancy and pretty looking. And it collapsed later that year. I stood in it!

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Your salary is and should be a function of how many people like you exist in the labor pool and how much value you can add to your employer. In the case of a 2nd grade regular-ed (not special) teacher, the size of that labor pool is tremendous. They do add a lot of value as well, but there's just no getting around the fact that there are lots and lots of people who can do that job.

The market can't always assign value to labor, particularly when it comes to intangibles. Even an NFL coach recognizes certain intangibles that don't show up on a player's stats when determining who stays and who gets cut from the team.

[HAL 9000 96]

I disagree, because that is am ambiguous, difficult to quantify and therefore subject to abuse.

We can define that contribution if it helps our thought experiment.

Or in a more realistic setting, credentials and measurable results can be crosslinked to actual payrates. As the system is supposed to work, yet still undervalues the employee in face of median salary rates and in comparison to other professions where credentials of similar acquisition result in duplicate (or more) salaries.

[Heracles 417]

I disagree, because that is am ambiguous, difficult to quantify and therefore subject to abuse.

This should help.

Cleaners worth more to society than bankers

Hospital cleaners create £10 for every £1 they earn

The thinktank said it had found a way to calculate how much someone should be paid in relation to the value they create through a series of measures including conventional economic returns, environmental impacts, and knock-on effects for jobs and wellbeing in society.

It said the report challenged the notion that high pay did not matter as long as poverty was eradicated. It argues that high pay is often generated by businesses that destroy other parts of the economy or fail to pay the full costs of their activities.

The report said tax accountants were the most destructive, laying waste to £47 of value for every £1 they created. Elite City bankers (earning £1m plus bonuses) destroy £7 of value for every £1 they create and advertising executives wreck £11 of value for every £1 they are paid.

On the other hand, the report judged that waste-recycling workers generated £12 for every £1 spent on their wages. Childcare workers create between £7 and £9.50 of value for every £1 of pay and hospital cleaners create more than £10 in value for every £1 they receive in pay.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/dec/14/new-economics-foundation-social-value

Salaries are reflective of supply and demand. It's why I am so adamantly against illegal aliens and the importation of 19th century labor. In countries like AUS where the supply of labor is restricted, all blue-collar workers receive a decent pay; often double to triple that of their equivalents in the US. I personally do not know of one tradesmen earning under $80K there.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Heracles

[^_^ 5,021]

We can define that contribution if it helps our thought experiment.

Or in a more realistic setting, credentials and measurable results can be crosslinked to actual payrates. As the system is supposed to work, yet still undervalues the employee in face of median salary rates and in comparison to other professions where credentials of similar acquisition result in duplicate (or more) salaries.

Credentials are fine, but in practice credentials often get watered down or twisted into something that is no longer a good indicator of quality. Teacher certifications are a very good example of the latter. My wife went through the process. While her special ed certs are, in my opinion, meaningful because you have to learn a lot of useful stuff (they make you take a certain sequence of grad level classes) to get it, I have a very low opinion of the certification process for elementary and middle school general ed. Those certs are a joke and it's pathetic that anyone who has one of them qualifies for a salary at that level.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Legacy member

[one...two...tree 2,762]

It is such a function. It should also be valued by its contribution to society. Perhaps if it where, society itself could take better steps to ensure higher standards for such contributors.

Yep and unfortunately, a value to society cannot always translate into market value. That is where free market ideals fall apart.