One of the most awe-inspiring sights in religion: Hundreds of thousands of Muslims gather at Mecca for Ramadan

[mawilson 2,133]

One thing that is missing here is the fact that many people have saved for years just to make an once in a life time trip. This sacrifice needes to be noted whatever your religion is.

Why, is it an expensive trip?

[ready4ONE 5,400]

One thing that is missing here is the fact that many people have saved for years just to make an once in a life time trip. This sacrifice needes to be noted whatever your religion is.

There is no denying it is an impressive crowd regardless of reason!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Sofiyya, what exactly is the Kaaba, whats in it and what is it's significance?

The most important shrine established for the people is the one in Becca; a blessed beacon for all the people. In it are clear signs: the station of Abraham. Anyone who enters it shall be granted safe passage. The people owe it to God that they shall observe Hajj to this shrine, when they can afford it. As for those who disbelieve, GOD does not need anyone. [Quran 3:96-97]

The Cliff Notes version is, the Ka'aba is a stone building believed to be the first sanctified house for the worship of the One God. Because of that distinction, it is the holiest site in Islam, the point on the globe (qibla) toward which every practicing Muslim prostrates five times a day in prayer (Quran 2:144). A reconstruction of the Ka'aba by the Prophets Abraham and Ishmael* (pbut), is recounted in the Quran. At some point after that, pagans appropriated the Ka'aba and desecrated it with idols, using it to make Mecca into a wealthy religious and commercial center for the pagan community. In 630 A.D., Muslims, lead by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), Muslims defeated the pagans during a series of battles and rededicated the Ka'aba to monotheism, and it has been treated as sacred ever since.

I hope that helps.

*Ishmael, the son of Abraham (pbuh) and his servant Hagar, is considered to be the head of the family tree branch that produced much of the Arab world, as God promised in the Bible (Genesis 17:20). Muslims believe that it was Ishmael, not Issac, who Abraham was commanded by God to slaughter as a sacrifice to Him. Through him, Muslims are "Children of Abraham", and Islam an Abrahamic faith.

Why, is it an expensive trip?

It can be a very expensive experience, yes.

[The_Dude 1,142]

Scary!!!

yep.............to small minded people who believe all muslims are terrorists.

does that mean we'll be taking over the world soon? you know, seeing as how there are so many and all are terrorists.....

Someone's a bit hypersensitive. I thought the same thing when I saw the pictures. I find devotion to some fictional character a frightening, regardless of what fictional character it is.

Edited September 8, 2010 by Rob & Mel

[mawilson 2,133]

Someone's a bit hypersensitive. I thought the same thing when I saw the pictures. I find devotion to some fictional character a frightening, regardless of what fictional character it is.

+1

[_Simpson_ 250]

Someone's a bit hypersensitive. I thought the same thing when I saw the pictures. I find devotion to some fictional character a frightening, regardless of what fictional character it is.

[Krikit 1,165]

About half the posts in this thread have been removed due to TOS violations. Any more and administrative action will be taken, including thread banning and/or suspension. Fair warning.

[DukeOfYork 28]

Sofiyya,

A few points to dispute. Since you're going to use Genesis 17:20 to back up your argument that Ishmael, and not Isaac, was the child of promise whom God commanded to sacrifice, then I thought I would provide some context.

*Ishmael, the son of Abraham (pbuh) and his servant Hagar, is considered to be the head of the family tree branch that produced much of the Arab world, as God promised in the Bible (Genesis 17:20). Muslims believe that it was Ishmael, not Issac, who Abraham was commanded by God to slaughter as a sacrifice to Him. Through him, Muslims are "Children of Abraham", and Islam an Abrahamic faith.

Genesis 17:19-22: Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year." When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.

In verse 19, it's clear that God said he would establish an everlasting covenant with him and his descendents. For Ishmael, it says he will be blessed, will be the father of 12 rulers and a great nation.

As a Christian, I take that to mean that the everlasting covenent is the one originally promised to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3.

Also, if you want to use Genesis to prove a point about Ishmael, then we have to use it for all of our evidence on what it says about him and Isaac.

Regarding Ishmael, the Genesis account says he was sent away. Genesis 21:8-10 says: The child grew and was weaned, and on the day Isaac was weaned Abraham held a great feast. But Sarah saw that the son whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham was mocking, and she said to Abraham, "Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac." The rest of the chapter details how he went off and grew in the desert.

Genesis 22:1-19: 1 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!"

"Here I am," he replied.

2 Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."

3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. 5 He said to his servants, "Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you."

6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, 7 Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, "Father?"

"Yes, my son?" Abraham replied.

"The fire and wood are here," Isaac said, "but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?"

8 Abraham answered, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." And the two of them went on together.

9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!"

"Here I am," he replied.

12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."

13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram [a] caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called that place The LORD Will Provide. And to this day it is said, "On the mountain of the LORD it will be provided."

15 The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."

19 Then Abraham returned to his servants, and they set off together for Beersheba. And Abraham stayed in Beersheba.

The Genesis account clearly shows it was Isaac whom God commanded Abraham to sacrifice and not Ishmael. What is the reason for the Muslim belief that it was the other way around?

[_Simpson_ 250]

[Nik+Heather 121]

Pretty amazing crowd control to get all those even lines...I always wonder why people get the front seats for things. Who do you have to be, or what do you have to do to be in the front row there, I wonder?

Sofiyya, thanks for the explanation about the cube in the center, I had always wondered about that.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Sorry, you typed all that for nothing. My reference to Genesis was about God's promise to create a great nation from the legacy of Ishmael. I was not referring to the difference between the Christian view and the Muslim view of which son Abraham was directed to sacrifice. I wasn't making an argument at all about that point.

Sofiyya,

A few points to dispute. Since you're going to use Genesis 17:20 to back up your argument that Ishmael, and not Isaac, was the child of promise whom God commanded to sacrifice, then I thought I would provide some context.

Genesis 17:19-22: Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year." When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.

In verse 19, it's clear that God said he would establish an everlasting covenant with him and his descendents. For Ishmael, it says he will be blessed, will be the father of 12 rulers and a great nation.

As a Christian, I take that to mean that the everlasting covenent is the one originally promised to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3.

Also, if you want to use Genesis to prove a point about Ishmael, then we have to use it for all of our evidence on what it says about him and Isaac.

Regarding Ishmael, the Genesis account says he was sent away. Genesis 21:8-10 says: The child grew and was weaned, and on the day Isaac was weaned Abraham held a great feast. But Sarah saw that the son whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham was mocking, and she said to Abraham, "Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac." The rest of the chapter details how he went off and grew in the desert.

Genesis 22:1-19: 1 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!"

"Here I am," he replied.

2 Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."

3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. 5 He said to his servants, "Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you."

6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, 7 Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, "Father?"

"Yes, my son?" Abraham replied.

"The fire and wood are here," Isaac said, "but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?"

8 Abraham answered, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." And the two of them went on together.

9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!"

"Here I am," he replied.

12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."

13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram [a] caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called that place The LORD Will Provide. And to this day it is said, "On the mountain of the LORD it will be provided."

15 The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."

19 Then Abraham returned to his servants, and they set off together for Beersheba. And Abraham stayed in Beersheba.

The Genesis account clearly shows it was Isaac whom God commanded Abraham to sacrifice and not Ishmael. What is the reason for the Muslim belief that it was the other way around?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Pretty amazing crowd control to get all those even lines...I always wonder why people get the front seats for things. Who do you have to be, or what do you have to do to be in the front row there, I wonder?

Sofiyya, thanks for the explanation about the cube in the center, I had always wondered about that.

You're welcome!

[DukeOfYork 28]

Sorry, you typed all that for nothing. My reference to Genesis was about God's promise to create a great nation from the legacy of Ishmael.

Ok.

I would like to know how the Judeo-Christian belief is that it was Isaac and how the Islamic belief is Ishmael. If you could provide some insight, I'd appreciate it. If not, that's fine as well.

[IndigoSkies 168]

Pretty amazing crowd control to get all those even lines...I always wonder why people get the front seats for things. Who do you have to be, or what do you have to do to be in the front row there, I wonder?

Show up early. That's about the only thing you can do to be nearer to the center. There's no assigned seat.

Pretty amazing crowd control to get all those even lines...I always wonder why people get the front seats for things. Who do you have to be, or what do you have to do to be in the front row there, I wonder?

Show up early. That's about the only thing you can do to be nearer to the center. There's no assigned seat.

[Nik+Heather 121]

Ok.

I would like to know how the Judeo-Christian belief is that it was Isaac and how the Islamic belief is Ishmael. If you could provide some insight, I'd appreciate it. If not, that's fine as well.

Can't you imagine how messed up the interpersonal dynamics were in that family? I mean, Abraham was married to Sarah, and then she couldn't have kids, so he had one with Sarah's maid, then Sarah gets pregnant after Ishmael (being raised thus far as "The" son) is old enough to mock things and suddenly "The" son is someone else....

It's not that far of a stretch for the descendants of each to have been taught that they were really the special ones, is it?