Because VJ needs yet another thread on the Ground Zero Mosque

[thongd4me 69]

I'm surprised that so far nobody has compared Islamic terrorists to the KKK.

The KKK as you may or may not remember, used some notion of mystical Christianity

to promote prejudice and violent actions against Blacks (who oddly enough were

universally Christian) and Jews and any other people not considered "normal" by their ilk.

Today I'm guessing the KKK is pretty much underground if it exists at all.

One of the reasons for that is we have become more tolerant since the times of the civil rights movement.

Another is that our legal system enforces laws (not perfectly but well enough to make a difference) intended

to protect the rights of all citizens.

Church attendance is at an all time low and Christian religious leaders have universally disavowed

any connection with the activities of the KKK.

Now where is the connection to this thread?

I don't think the non-Islamic world believes that the Islamic world has convincingly separated itself

from identifying with so-called Islamic terrorists and their organizations.

Mainstream Islamic institutions, Islamic governments and business entities have been linked to support for terrorist organizations.

Terrorists have (with or without the endorsement of clerics) often met at mosques to network and plan their activities.

People who object to the mosque being so close to GZ want to know that terrorism is not being promoted by the project.

They see the proclamations of mainstream Islamic leaders and clerics against terrorism to be unconvincing.

Today, the KKK is a joke but so-called "Islamic terrorism" is not a joke.

Any who speak out against it very seriously look over their shoulders with real concern.

I think only when it becomes an object of ridicule in the Islamic world will this issue be put to rest.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

They have morphed into Canadians. Canadians consider failing to say "Sorry, excuse me" (ou "Desole, excuse a moi") a severe provocation. Kathryn41 will suspend you for it.

The mosque will/would be built on private property. Does someone not agree we have private property rights here? Does someone want the government telling their Lutheran church where they can build a church on their own property?

Edited September 2, 2010 by Gary and Alla

[Sofiyya 1,687]

The double standards openly displayed on every Islam/Muslim bashing thread:

There is no relevant incident ever where Christians can be violent in the name of Christianity because there is always some mitigating factor that makes it a non-issue that Christians, individually or as a group, are violent. In contrast, violent acts by Muslims, individually or collectively, are always motivated by evil Islam.

Quoting from anti-Islam websites demonstrates that the poster is an expert interpreter Islamic literature, no context required. Interpreting the Bible or quoting from it should only be done by trained adherents of Christianity.

Wikipedia is a valid source of Islamic knowledge.

Non-Muslims are more qualified to evaluate and discuss Islam and Muslims because they are not Muslims and don't practice Islam, so they must know more about them than do biased Muslims who are dedicated to lying about Islam.

Non-Muslims must develop and control the lexjcon and emphasis re Islam and Muslims and ignore Muslims who try to correct it.

There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim because there is always something wrong with them just for following a flawed religion with all those violent verses.

Good Muslims don't practice Islam.

The above.paradigms are the most prevalent in each Muslim/Islam bashing thread. I know this will be denied, but that's because denial is rule one for bashers.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Btw, this list pertains to the collective Muslim/Islam bashing experience on OT. It is not limited to or wholly represented on this particular thread.

[IncorrectPolitics 26]

Practicing Muslims are not allowed to criticize Islam. So it makes sense that only former Muslims can be honest.

What point does that make? Anytime someone quits practicing a certain religion they criticize it. Also I don't know of any religion that allows it's members to put it down.

[Jenn! 918]

What point does that make? Anytime someone quits practicing a certain religion they criticize it. Also I don't know of any religion that allows it's members to put it down.

I see, so your politics are only selectively incorrect.

[IncorrectPolitics 26]

I see, so your politics are only selectively incorrect.

No they aren't selectively incorrect, you would be appalled at some of the things I think. But it doesn't make sense when someone says that former Muslims can only speak honestly about Islam because they can't criticize it if they are still practicing. I have known Catholics who quit practicing and criticize Catholicism then bash christianity and catholicism. Besides this has nothing to do with me or my opinions, your post was completely off topic.

Edited September 2, 2010 by IncorrectPolitics

[^_^ 5,021]

They have morphed into Canadians.

True, true. That angle had not occurred to me, but it does explain it perfectly.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Practicing Muslims are not allowed to criticize Islam. So it makes sense that only former Muslims can be honest.

It's not true that practicing Muslims aren't allowed to criticize Islam; it's not unusual to see that. However, criticism is overwhelming directed at cultural practices cloaked in a false veneer of "Islam", or fiqh laws made by men that accommodate their own desires over God's commands. What it all boils down to is criticizing fellow Muslims who don't follow Islam.

All who practice a faith selectively balance what's in their holy book with their reality, and each clings to it because it gives them something they need. Christians and Jews who convert to Islam often harshly criticize their former faiths, as do former Muslims. They each have an exaggerated focus on what their old faith didn't give them, as well as an exaggerated focus on the promise of their new faith or lack of it.

None of this is absolute truth or absolute reality. Religion is essentially a social construct. The only honest thing about any one person's view of a former faith is that it is highly subjective.

[^_^ 5,021]

Personally, every Muslim I know criticizes the way other Muslims do Islam. They all think their Islam is the right Islam. I've seen this both in Muslims in India and in Muslims here.

[chri'stina 190]

Some Christians do the same thing.

I don't really think I should listen to someone's own views about a religion instead of researching for myself. If someone wants to learn about Christianity based on what I say, that's ok but how will they know what I say is valid or not if they never look it up for themselves. I could make up anything I want about it to someone who never has researched for themselves.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Personally, every Muslim I know criticizes the way other Muslims do Islam. They all think their Islam is the right Islam. I've seen this both in Muslims in India and in Muslims here.

'Christians' are just as guilty of this....

My Aunt for instance will scoff and comment at every church she drives by

[^_^ 5,021]

Some Christians do the same thing.

I don't really think I should listen to someone's own views about a religion instead of researching for myself. If someone wants to learn about Christianity based on what I say, that's ok but how will they know what I say is valid or not if they never look it up for themselves. I could make up anything I want about it to someone who never has researched for themselves.

I'm not Christian or Muslim. I do, however, interact with Christians and Muslims on a daily basis. It's their actions and their words that matter to me, not whether or not there is any theological basis for what they say or do. The theology is frankly quite irrelevant except on a purely intellectual level.

[chri'stina 190]

I'm not Christian or Muslim. I do, however, interact with Christians and Muslims on a daily basis. It's their actions and their words that matter to me, not whether or not there is any theological basis for what they say or do. The theology is frankly quite irrelevant except on a purely intellectual level.

You aren't? I thought you were! (jk)

I know what you mean, they are representing their faith and how they do that will affect what people think of them and their religion. I don't deny that. But some people who want to find out more about what some people believe, would have to dig deeper than just being around a Christian or Muslim if they really wanted to evaluate someone's actions being associated with their faith or not. (long sentence there!)

Edited September 2, 2010 by chri'stina

[IncorrectPolitics 26]

It's not true that practicing Muslims aren't allowed to criticize Islam; it's not unusual to see that. However, criticism is overwhelming directed at cultural practices cloaked in a false veneer of "Islam", or fiqh laws made by men that accommodate their own desires over God's commands. What it all boils down to is criticizing fellow Muslims who don't follow Islam.

All who practice a faith selectively balance what's in their holy book with their reality, and each clings to it because it gives them something they need. Christians and Jews who convert to Islam often harshly criticize their former faiths, as do former Muslims. They each have an exaggerated focus on what their old faith didn't give them, as well as an exaggerated focus on the promise of their new faith or lack of it.

None of this is absolute truth or absolute reality. Religion is essentially a social construct. The only honest thing about any one person's view of a former faith is that it is highly subjective.

You can never make people understand if they don't want to, some people only look for the bad in things. Like another poster said to name him any religion and he can make it look evil. It is a waste of energy to try to make anyone understand if they don't want to, you should know......

As for the faithless, it is the same to them whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not have faith. Allah has set a seal on their hearts and their hearing, and there is a blindfold on their sight and there is a great punishment for them....