This Is Why America Has A Problem With The GZ Mosque...

[ready4ONE 5,400]

Look to the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition for the damage that a few million zealots can do and the results they wrought. We are still dealing with their mess. Yes, this is likely to grow and spread as more westerners declare themselves to be enemies of evil Islam. Even "good" Muslims will defend themselves.

Crusades 1095 - 1291

Spanish Inquisition 1492 to 1500's really hinky, officially abolished in 1834

Since "evil Islamists" kill more "good" Muslims than anyone else, shouldn't good Muslims join in mutual defense with the other 80% of the world?

And please, some fresh Christian outrages.

I agree zealots of any stripe suck, but you seem to be threatening to become a Muslim Terrorist with your last statement. Over stating your words, but that is how it reads. Kind of think we may be on the same side here? No?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

What a very, very disappointing critique. Being dismissed as only being interested in demonstrating how educated I am as if being informed or uninformed doesn't make a difference in how decisions and conclusions are reached.

Its always interesting how linear thinking westerners are so arrogant to dismiss events in history as if the dates they attribute to their "beginnings" and "ends" tie them all up in a neat little bow with no consequences in the future; like the Treaty of Versailles had no connection to the discontent of the German people and no relation to WWII.

Most of the world and any historian worth his/her salt understands that history is not a series of discombobulated events existing in a bubble with no continuing relationship to each other. That's probably how it's taught in school, but it isn't that way in application or analysis, explaining the disadvantage that linear thinkers have in dealing with those who don't dismiss the past as something over an done. There is nothing tired about looking back to see forward more clearly. The cycle of history will be part of the solution when tired in the box analysis is surrendered for more useful and holistic consideration of other paradigms.

Soffiya's references to the Crusades and the Spanish Inquistion are both 'tired' to say the least and offer no type of formative solution.

Your implication that the people of the 21st century are somehow different than the people of the prior centuries is also 'tired' and offers no type of solution.

This type of conversation is equivalent to playground finger pointing. The only thing that tries to make it a 'big people' conversation' is that it is often decorated with 'google links' or randomly quoted verses from the Holy Books.

Personally, I doubt that either of you are really interested in the 'topic' but are more interested in a debate about who is more 'educated'.

However, I would say that I would vote for Soffiya because her Avatar is much more gorgeouser than yours

Of course, blessings!

[ready4ONE 5,400]

What a very, very disappointing critique. Being dismissed as only being interested in demonstrating how educated I am as if being informed or uninformed doesn't make a difference in how decisions and conclusions are reached.

Its always interesting how linear thinking westerners are so arrogant to dismiss events in history as if the dates they attribute to their "beginnings" and "ends" tie them all up in a neat little bow with no consequences in the future; like the Treaty of Versailles had no connection to the discontent of the German people and no relation to WWII.

Most of the world and any historian worth his/her salt understands that history is not a series of discombobulated events existing in a bubble with no continuing relationship to each other. That's probably how it's taught in school, but it isn't that way in application or analysis, explaining the disadvantage that linear thinkers have in dealing with those who don't dismiss the past as something over an done. There is nothing tired about looking back to see forward more clearly. The cycle of history will be part of the solution when tired in the box analysis is surrendered for more useful and holistic consideration of other paradigms.

So you are saying Muslims will never get over anything and we should expect them to at least sympathize if not be active in terrorism? You have a great point about history as a teaching tool, but seems lost in the explanation of why terrorism is justifiable.

The Treaty of Versailles may have made WWII inevitable but it certainly doesn't explain the blanket slaughter of Jews, Poles and Gypsies to name the largest groups slaughtered factory style by the Germans...

[Sofiyya 1,687]

So you are saying Muslims will never get over anything and we should expect them to at least sympathize if not be active in terrorism? You have a great point about history as a teaching tool, but seems lost in the explanation of why terrorism is justifiable.

The Treaty of Versailles may have made WWII inevitable but it certainly doesn't explain the blanket slaughter of Jews, Poles and Gypsies to name the largest groups slaughtered factory style by the Germans...

I haven't said that terrorism is justifiable. I haven't even insinuated that. You're the one who keeps bringing that up.

Most of the world hasn't gotten over its history, not just Muslims.

[nab 74]

You're right about not being an expert on the Quran. None of those quotes is from it. Do you really think that cherry picking quotes out of context and without validation is worth the time you took to do it? That can be done to any holy book. What's your religion? I can make it look silly and violent in a flash.

Are your Muslim "friends" as ignorant as you are, or do they get a kick out of letting you be ignorant alone?

he got his supposed "Quron" quotes from an internet site called israelmilitary.net hmmm i'm sure they have no agenda...

[Dakine10 5,452]

And please, some fresh Christian outrages.

The massacre at Srebrenica comes to mind. The extent to which religion was a factor is debatable, but the victims were all Bosniak muslims, the agressors Serbian Orthodox Christians

It's a little eerie that the Serbian Orthodox church wants to build a church on land that is very close to the memorial to the Bosniak muslim victims of the genocide that occurred there.

[nab 74]

Paul you might be on to something such as it could be thaT Muslims have put their money and efforts together and build hospitals, Schools and Orphanages as other Faiths have done in NY.

I'ts very possible they run soup kitchens, food banks, rehab centers and Old folks homes as we see other faiths contribute in every city.

Maybe Muslims don't get the credit they deserve as citizens of our communities as they contribute to efforts outside of Islam?

If it's so we should know about it and recognize them for it because it's true: any faith or group can look bad from the evil deeds of a few members or even an occasional leader.

I'll be the first to admit, though I have been involved in a number of Charity things, I am not aware of any Muslim health clinics, homeless shelters or anything else but maybe in areas with a larger Muslim presence there are these things.

Those who are aware of them post that we might give Positive credit where it is deserved.

the bolded quote above is exactly the difference *I* have found between some of other faiths and muslims. Muslims don't seek out to do good works so they can be praised or "credited". Our eyes are on ALLAH, not on man, for our praise and reward.

In my experience, muslims give of their time and money more than others, but that is my personal experience. i believe the difference is we are willing to cross 'faith lines' in order to help others where as (again in MY experience) some others are not.

why do we need to set up a new food pantry when one already exists and is servicing the community but it needs help? why dont YOU go to your local food pantry and volunteer, even if they are a different faith than you?? it's much better for the community to put our resources toward something already there, that service and govt organzations already know about and are sending people there for help, than to try to gain praise and glory for ourselves or to even try to 'win over' those who need help to our faith...

here is a perfect example for you... when i attempted to get a group together to help the local food pantry, NO ONE wanted to help. why? because they were a different "faith" and people were very upfront about it with their noses in the air. in their minds it's "us" and "them". how sad. i was taught to help ALL people, black and white, rich or poor, old or young, doesnt matter. my father taught me i am no better than anyone else and no one is better than i and if someone needs help you help them... simple as that. too bad others are not blessed to have a father like mine. or a grandmother too.

just for the record, the food pantry i'm speaking of is not a muslim organization, it is christian based, but even "christians" were not willing to help because they are a different denomination. They are well established and do an excellent job of serving the community, though they need more helping hands and more food. some days they open not knowing what they will feed the people showing up but they have faith in GOD, open it up, and HE ALWAYS PROVIDES.

should i not contribute my time and food there because they are not "my faith"? if you think that way then you are wrong thinking. The people who think this way are what is wrong with America.

Edited September 1, 2010 by nab

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

he got his supposed "Quron" quotes from an internet site called israelmilitary.net hmmm i'm sure they have no agenda...

Please do not lie on here.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=quran+quotes&aq=0&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=Quran+quot&gs_rfai=CtB9gOFV-TKreAqmMzATemfRgAAAAqgQFT9D1YWI&pbx=1&fp=7db4f7af4a13aa89 <--- You tell me what one of these sites is "legit" in your eyes.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

The massacre at Srebrenica comes to mind. The extent to which religion was a factor is debatable, but the victims were all Bosniak muslims, the agressors Serbian Orthodox Christians

It's a little eerie that the Serbian Orthodox church wants to build a church on land that is very close to the memorial to the Bosniak muslim victims of the genocide that occurred there.

The extent to which religion was a factor is very debatable, there is no evidence I am aware of Bosnian Christians were acting on behalf of calls from their God.

Beyond the clear historic evidence that while belief systems may bind certain groups and bring personal peace and comfort, and may be a common denominator for a given group

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Please do not lie on here.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=quran+quotes&aq=0&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=Quran+quot&gs_rfai=CtB9gOFV-TKreAqmMzATemfRgAAAAqgQFT9D1YWI&pbx=1&fp=7db4f7af4a13aa89 <--- You tell me what one of these sites is "legit" in your eyes.

One that uses verses from the Quran would be a start. Please stop pretending you know the Quran from crack when you don't.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

The massacre at Srebrenica comes to mind. The extent to which religion was a factor is debatable, but the victims were all Bosniak muslims, the agressors Serbian Orthodox Christians

It's a little eerie that the Serbian Orthodox church wants to build a church on land that is very close to the memorial to the Bosniak muslim victims of the genocide that occurred there.

Serbians were (may still be) brainwashed by their church and government in regards to old grudges when it comes to land/people in reference to the Turkish Empire. The West did too little and too late imo. But eventually NATO stepped in when the UN dropped the ball. Kosovo comes to mind and the aerial bombing of Belgrade.

It wasn't just Muslims that were targeted... Croats and Serbs targeted each other as well.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

The extent to which religion was a factor is very debatable, there is no evidence I am aware of Bosnian Christians were acting on behalf of calls from their God.

Beyond the clear historic evidence that while belief systems may bind certain groups and bring personal peace and comfort, and may be a common denominator for a given group

I've posted seveal articles re the Bosnian massacres, including the fact that the Christians waged a genocidal war against their Muslim neighbors. Evidence of Christian violence is not taken seriously or seen as "Christian" because it's inconvenient to this topic.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

One that uses verses from the Quran would be a start. Please stop pretending you know the Quran from crack when you don't.

I have admitted on this thread that I do not know the Quran. I posted quotes from the Quran that I got off the net.

Several sites had those quotes posted on them. I am asking you were those quotes I posted out of the "Hadith" or not ? What site is valid in your opinion ? You seem to like to dodge certain questions...like after three pages you have yet to refute the quotes I posted on here.

[nab 74]

Please do not lie on here.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=quran+quotes&aq=0&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=Quran+quot&gs_rfai=CtB9gOFV-TKreAqmMzATemfRgAAAAqgQFT9D1YWI&pbx=1&fp=7db4f7af4a13aa89 <--- You tell me what one of these sites is "legit" in your eyes.

instead of following the "crazies" on the internet, you should take a look at an actual Quran, hold it in your hands, and READ IT FOR YOURSELF, rather than take fabricated quotes about it from hate groups on the internet then regurgitating them to others as fact.

if you insist on an internet site, here's the Quran translation in several languages.

http://www.searchtruth.com/list.php

take the time to read it; open your mind and actually research what Islam teaches...

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

I've posted seveal articles re the Bosnian massacres, including the fact that the Christians waged a genocidal war against their Muslim neighbors. Evidence of Christian violence is not taken seriously or seen as "Christian" because it's inconvenient to this topic.

LOL....you have got to be kidding. There are trials going on atm involving Serbian and Croat war criminals. Serbia lost Kosovo to Muslims due to the fact NATO bombed Belgrade back into the stone age. If it were not for NATO stepping in, there would be no Muslims left in Bosnia and Kosovo.