marriage was real now he insists i have to help him finish ROC

[Nystu 2]

He would argue that the marriage was entered in good faith and if I don't do what I have to to make approval happen, then I am being unfair.

There is some truth to that, but then there is the part about misrepresentation. Hmmmm. I don't know if asking him "do the ends justify the means?"

would mean anything to him.

I am stuck living in the same house with him right now. He comes to me almost everyday and I get this constant barrage of 'help me help me, don't leave me alone in this.' And if the stress by itself isn't making him sick then he is making himself sick. I'm not an evil compassionless person that doesn't mind seeing someone upset, even though he hurt me. You know, it's all these conflicting pressures that make this so difficult.

My two cents... Forget about the immigration process for a minute, can you work things out? I don't know the specifics of your problems, and we don't know your husband's side of the story either, but a divorce is something that I don't wish on anyone. If the answer is no then try to help him by going about it legally, I am sure he can still get his 10yrs GC even if divorced, others have done it by collecting all needed evidence. But as I was saying, you are married to this guy, this is not just about an immigration process, this is about putting an end to something neither one of you began thinking you will get divorced. Remember all the effort you put into bringing him here or adjusting his status? I am not trying to lecture you, but if you still have an ounce of energy to dedicate to this marriage, it will be well worth it. Talk to God, he knows your heart and is wiser than any of us here on VJ.

Good luck

[IncorrectPolitics 26]

Do you mind me asking what country we are dealing with? And why do you need a second interview? Usually people never have an interview for ROC from what I understand. Did you have an AOS interview or did they just give him the 2 year green card without an AOS interview. Do you think they are suspicious.....did you two seem unhappy are your interview?

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

First, he is being completely unfair to you by expecting you to commit a federal crime that could land you in prison or with a fine in the ten of thousands of dollars.

Second, worry about your personal sanity and safety before his immigration issues.

He is the applicant for the Removal of Conditions therefore he bears the burden of collecting the evidence. That said, if you have documents he needs of course play nice and provide them to him.

You did your part by giving the marriage every last chance it cold have ad it still failed. Feel free to move along and get your life back in order.

[endofthetunnel 3]

My two cents... Forget about the immigration process for a minute, can you work things out? I don't know the specifics of your problems, and we don't know your husband's side of the story either, but a divorce is something that I don't wish on anyone. If the answer is no then try to help him by going about it legally, I am sure he can still get his 10yrs GC even if divorced, others have done it by collecting all needed evidence. But as I was saying, you are married to this guy, this is not just about an immigration process, this is about putting an end to something neither one of you began thinking you will get divorced. Remember all the effort you put into bringing him here or adjusting his status? I am not trying to lecture you, but if you still have an ounce of energy to dedicate to this marriage, it will be well worth it. Talk to God, he knows your heart and is wiser than any of us here on VJ.

Good luck

I've done my praying. I did a special one this morning about how stressful this waiting is on both of us, how we for our health we would really like some decision to be made soon (human soon), about what happened in the marriage and why I concluded the marriage has to end, and as a human I can't force anything to happen and if He wants something to happen He will cause it to happen regardless of what we think we want. I was sincere and not vindictive towards the other party. Within 5 hours there was a message on the machine about scheduling the second interview.

I was thinking about being morally upright. Divorce isn't something to go into lightly... but the marriage really was not healthy and we both need to be with someone who we understand who understands us, who we don't have to change huge things about ourselves for in order to have a stable relationship. In the end we understand ourselves better and we can make better choices. As far as the immigration thing, there is morality based on his perspective, and morally based on my perspective. He thinks it is morally wrong of me not to help him after the good faith marriage. I think it is morally wrong to lie and misrepresent ourselves, under oath, to immigration. There is also the potential to make things worse if we misrepresent. It's one of those harsh choices where doing the right thing can make some trouble. I know it's short term trouble... I suppose that's what I have to remember.

[sera77 35]

To OP (original poster)

You sound like a person who bends over backward to help people and do the 'right thing'. Don't compromise your values and allow him to mentally bludgeon you into giving him what he wants. You both entered into a good faith marriage, and you're willing to attest to that. You've decided to divorce and it's time to take your life back and he has to start taking care of his own business. It isn't reasonable for him to expect you to risk lying yourself into a felony, risk having joint title on property wth him(car, bank) and be on the hook for the 864 form for a marriage that failed. Frankly it sounds like the behaviour of a spoiled child who wants everything done for him.

You haven't mentioned what he's done for You other than you've mentioned that he verbally manipulates you.

The way you describe him he sounds more like a child than a man.

Maybe cutting him free and having him work for what he wants is the best thing you could do for him. Let him gather his proof himself, let him get a lawyer on his own if he really wants the benefits of a green card. Seriously, Everyone has to grow up sometime. Maybe this is where he grows up and realizes that he CAN achieve things rather than having them served up to him after pouting/manipulating......or goes back to where he came from.

[USUY2010 4]

You seem to be really upset. And I don't wish this upon anybody. Many people here have given you the idea of counseling, and you've seem to have discarded it every time. That gives me the idea that you don't want to be with this person. It's a shame but this kind of things, unfortunately, do happen. I think the soundest advice I heard was to get a divorce and write a letter explaining your situation.

I understand what you mean about morality, but I don't think it applies in this case, let him know you will help him when he needs it, you'll provide evidence that the marriage :was: in good faith but you need to look after yourself.

I am deeply troubled, however, that you are considering what's best for him when he is obviously disregarding what's best for you, and invading your personal spaces as you previously shared with us.

I can't make the decision for you, if I could I'd go to a lawyer and start getting help towards ending the marriage. Whichever choice you make do not lie to the Immigration Office, the risks are not worth taking.

[salawu ra 0]

Hi,

I am so frustrated. He came here on a K1, we did AOS, applied for ROC, 3 months later I FINALLY made a decision about staying in the marriage or not. It has been rocky, 'nuff said.

Love is dead, don't want to stay in the marriage.

His family is having problems and he doesn't want to add to them by causing them to worry about if he can stay here or not. He is not sleeping well, lost a bunch of weight, complains of aches and pains etc.

The marriage was legit. ROC was applied for before I made my decision. According to the memorandum about I-751 filed before divorce, it can be treated as a waiver case.

Problem, we were called for an interview 2 weeks ago, I went with him. They didn't ask about the state of the marriage or if we were sleeping together, and I didn't offer the info. We didn't lie. But is not bringing it up ourselves considered a lie? I've been thinking about it and now I'm worried, did I lie under oath?

He was not approved or denied, the interviewer gave us a paper indicating they needed to do additional review. Is there an official name for that paper? 120 days!!! The separation is completed at the beginning of October and 120 day won't be over until last half of December! He is living in the house in a separate room, wants to come into my room and talk, uses my bathroom, leaves dirty clothes there... and he wants to know why I asked him not to? i can't stand this much longer.

He insists that I have to help him, which might mean lying - outright lying if they do a surprise visit or call us in for a second interview. Because we don't have financial proofs of comingled lives they might very well deny ROC and that wouldn't be right because it was was WAS a LEGIT marriage. He has talked to people and I get stories about how so and so's wife helped by not filing until he got his 10-year card (possibly lying/fudging under oath in the process). I'm going nuts here. He's piling on the guilt trip and any mention of me not helping him results in a lecture for me. He keeps pushing and pushing and I hate this situation. I'm getting the same kinds of feelings that pushed me away from him to begin with that I wish I had listened to sooner, and I feel stuck like I can't get myself out of the situation. Divorce would get me out of the situation.

He is just the kind of difficult person I don't know how to deal with. His logic twists around and seems so...logical but there are things about doing this the way he wants me to that just seem wrong no matter what his reasons are for wanting me to do things that way. I want to say no outright but I know him, it is not something he will accept well and sometimes it seems that he's not mentally stable. He has 2 brothers that are unstable in different ways and maybe it's insulting but sometimes I wonder if there is something genetic.

I feel manipulated. First it was 'give me 20 days to change your mind' then it was 'i don't have enough money to rent somewhere and I don't want to impose on my friends' then the interview date came and no decision on the case and now it's about keeping this address so it looks more like we're living together.

He has suggested renting a place together but I don't actually live there, make joint bank account, get my name added to his on the car title...all this to create proof and give the impression that everything is just fine.

I wish I could give him things he can't argue against. I don't hate him, but I don't want to be anywhere near this person that made me feel so bad I was hitting myself trying to deal with the emotions.

ideas what do I do, is it really ok to pretend everything is fine right now to help him get the card because the marriage was legit? Everything in me screams no, and his guilt tripping words say that I'm being mean and thoughtless and all these things that he doesn't deserve.

hello and i have a question what country is ur husband from. and if u dont love each other i kn that feeling i was in a 25 yr marriage that had no love and i got wise (took forever) got out and now i am married again to ma new husband he is from Ghana and we are fighting for his interview to be given a date. i kn this is hard but make sure legaly you wont have to support him if you divorce him. i read somewhere that if you divorce before a certain time and he hasnt worked you have to support him for at least 10 yrs. wish we can talk on phone i need a good friend in this wait. if you wish to call me do so i am in virginia so check the time line ok. number is 540 471 1146. thanks for leting try to help you. Ruth Salawu

[IncorrectPolitics 26]

i read somewhere that if you divorce before a certain time and he hasnt worked you have to support him for at least 10 yrs. wish we can talk on phone i need a good friend in this wait. if you wish to call me do so i am in virginia so check the time line ok. number is 540 471 1146. thanks for leting try to help you. Ruth Salawu

That would be the affidavit of support, she will not have to support him. But.....if he draws any type of means tested assistance like food stamps or medicaid (except emergency medicaid) the government could sue the sponsor to pay it back. Generally a green card holder can't get means based assistance until they have been a permanent resident for 5 years and by then many of them are already a citizen so the affidavit or support is no longer valid.

[NigeriaorBust 4,087]

You married a man that turned out not to be "the one" It happens more and more. He moved to the US to "be with you" but has decided that he wishes to stay here without you. Who owes who what ? You owe it to yourself to take a path that makes you happy and causes you to live in the way that is healthy for you. You owe him the respect of breaking the relationship cleanly and not telling lies about the events. He owes you the respect to let you go. He can't ask you to continue to be stressed and unhappy for his gain. You both owe the US government honest responses to their queries. If you decide to go your separate ways today, and there is an interview , go , tell them that you both have decided to end the relationship after trying to work on things. Don't lie to them, don't disrespect yourself by being pulled into "helping him " There is a path to stay if the marriage was good faith. He can use it if he wishes.

[Julie y Pat 67]

Tell your husband that you wont lie for him, and as others have said, he doesn't need you to. Tell him you found a great website for him to find out what he will need, a few hours of reading on these pages for a few days and he will see that you don't have to lie. The hard part about lying or misrepresenting things is that you have to remember all the details, some that you may not even consider when planning the lie, and if asked separately would you both be able to give the same answer about that detail? The truth never changes, details may become fuzzy over time, but it doesn't change. I think you said there is a second interview soon, tell them divorce seems imminent, but because it such an important decision for the two of you to make, you don't want to rush to file before the interview. If you're still looking for the last glimmers of hope in a marriage that has all but failed, it helps show that the marriage was entered into in good faith. And you don't have to lie. If you're at ROC, you've been married about two years, working on growing your marriage, but for reasons it hasn't grown. And it may help explain lack of proofs such as co-mingling resources and things. If asked separately about the lack of proofs, you'll be better off with the truth, even if you both have different reasons. They're more likely to be along the lines of I didn't feel the marriage was improving, so those things became less important. More things to tie you together, at the same time that you're feeling less convinced of the longevity of the marriage. Now imagine being asked about the handle on the toilet in the additional apartment. Is it on the front or the side? Are there two handles or one on the kitchen sink? Tell your hubby you will help him with the truth, but he's got a lot of reading to do, and you're not going to do it for him.

But you will have the I864, as Bobby+Umit, pointed out before, and that doesn't go away with divorce. Tell him you'll cooperate with him for the ROC, but he better get his #### to work and earn those forty quarters of work so you never have to hear about an I864 again. And tell him he doesn't want to know how pissed of you will be if you are notified that you are responsible for any means tested benefits he may have received.

Maybe spend a little time to get your stories in sync of how the marriage has weakened, there might be some turning points you can agree on, but only you would know if that's a good idea or not.

[justashooter 430]

He would argue that the marriage was entered in good faith and if I don't do what I have to to make approval happen, then I am being unfair.

There is some truth to that, but then there is the part about misrepresentation. Hmmmm. I don't know if asking him "do the ends justify the means?"

would mean anything to him.

as stated in other threads in this segment of the forums, your husband can write a letter to the office that is processing his case requesting a conversion of his existing application from "married jointly" to single filing. this is covered under memo 19-2005.

from a similar thread:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/topic/265457-what-to-do/

agreed that it is not within the purview of an interviewing officer to change the nature of the petition from joint to seperated. this is within the purview of applicable service centers. if you get called to interview and your husband says that he has a new GF and that he is just staying with you long enuf for you to get your GC then your petition may be denied. if he lies about what he is doing and this is ever determined to be the case, at any time in the future, whether you have gotten the GC without interview or not, or are already a naturalised citizen, then he can be charged with immigration fraud, as can you, and you can both wind up in jail. after you are released from jail, you will surely be deported. in a very real sense even allowing the petition to move forward with intent to divorce and not notifying USCIS is a direct violation of the law punishable by criminal charge and deportation, if so determined.

if you seperate (constructively, or physically) you need to file an AR-11 change of address form if applicable, and notify the applicable service centers that you are seperated. your application will be converted from "joint file" with no cost to self petition, you will get an RFE for final divorce decree, and will be ajudicated at interview. if you has proof of good faith you will be fine whether the husband goes with or not, if you are divorced by then. if the divorce is not final within the 87 days alloted for reply to the RFE (which will come 60-90 days after notification of the service center) you should send a copy of the divorce pleading and indicate that it is process.

this may kick you into removal proceedings within a few months if you have not by then presented the decree. you will have to attend the proceeding with evidence that the case is in process and state the reason that it is not finished yet (state divorce rules, argument over division of assets, contesting the divorce, etc), and the judge will issue a stay of deportation for long enuf to get the decree. then the case will be ajudicated on basis of it's merits.

what you need to get RIGHT NOW is evidence of good faith marriage during the period from arrival in USA to the current date. your case will be ajudicated on basis of this evidence. copies of all earlier documentation, and your home passport, will be of great use and should be acquired. you should take any originals for yourself, but leave your husband copies. he may have legal reason to use them later, especially if he ever marries a foreigner again. they are owned by both parties, so he should be given a copy.

how likely is it that your scheme to defraud the US gov't of immigration benefits? that depends on how many people know what the game is, and how angry they are. his current GF knows, and she may not always be happy with him. his family is surely gonna know, and already may not like you. everybody on this board knows, and your IP address is trackable to your identity. USCIS agents read this board, and may be working as i type. if i was not such a lazy guy i would prolly determine your identity and file a notice to USCIS right now. do the right thing and everythign will work out fine. if you try to cheat, you may get caught, and your entire future will be ruined. this is that serious.

https://egov.uscis.g...i/go?action=coa

Edited September 1, 2010 by justashooter

[Kathryn41 3,205]

It seems your husband is frightened that if the marriage ends before he gets his 10 year green card he won't get his 10 year green card at all, that divorce means an automatic denial and he will have to leave. This isn't true - he can still get the 10 year card even if he is divorced.

The marriage isn't working out and you are headed for divorce. Your marriage was in good faith but it has been difficult from the start and you don't have a lot of evidence to show. You have had one interview and are now scheduled for a second. You want out now. Your husband wants you to pretend that everything is fine until after he gets his 10 year card, even though it isn't. He needs to know that divorce does not mean an automatic denial, but misrepresenting the current circumstances very well may mean a denial. If the true situation is discovered without being revealed by you, USCIS will have no reason to believe anything else either of you have to say - such as the marriage was valid in the first place.

Immigration already has concerns that this marriage isn't all it is cracked up to be. I do think your best course of action is to come clean at the interview and explain to the interviewer that yes, the marriage was real and you really tried to make it work, but it isn't working, and you have reached the decision to divorce. You can acknowledge even in the interview that the timing really sucks because of the I-751 application but you will be starting the divorce proceedings soon - if not prior to the interview - and your husband can apply to have his I-751 application modified to 'filing with a waiver' and ask to wait for a decision until the divorce is finalized and he can present that document. It will be a delay in a decision. Be supportive of him and provide as much documentary evidence as you do have and can share, because your objective is to make a clean break, not a hurtful one. You want him out of your life but you don't want to destroy his life.

You don't want to lie or misrepresent the situation to USCIS. Explain to your husband you will do everything you legally can to help him with the process, but you will not misrepresent things or pretend things that are not true. If you are found 'out' in your pretense - and it is very likely that will happen - then USCIS will have no reason to believe that anything else you have said is honest and true, and the application will be denied. The best opportunity for a successful 10 year card is to acknowledge that the marriage is failing and request a waiver for the joint filing condition. USCIS already 'knows' something is off - you can now give them a reasonable explanation for discrepancies they have noticed and give your husband a chance to get his green card through another legal route. Encourage your husband to focus on the honest intent and good faith of the marriage and even discuss why it just didn't work, rather than trying to pull the wool over an Immigration Officer's already suspicious, experienced and very knowing eyes. The honesty will work in his favour much more than the dishonesty would - and it won't get you in trouble. It may even get him his 10 year card.

Good luck at the interview, and good luck for getting your life back.

Edited September 1, 2010 by Kathryn41

[rlogan 2,036]

I guess I'm trying to find a way to explain my position to him, but in a way he can't argue about.

Hi Endofthetunnel

Manipulative people know you better than you know yourself. They have practiced all their lives. They go through an "evaluation phase" with every person they encounter, learning what kinds of things work with each person. They select their targets (you) specifically because you are easier to manipulate than other people.

In your case he obviously preys on the theme of "abandoning" him and he has some other "morality" plays he is using, and there will be others too. But the answer to your question is that you explain your position this way:

"That is my position." or "That is my decision". Period. You absolutely cannot engage in an argument with them because all you are doing is inviting them to change your mind by using the same manipulative tactics that have worked on you over and over again in the past.

There are some very good books you need to read, and at the top of the list I would put "In Sheep's Clothing- Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People" by Dr. George Simon. But I would immediately google "Characteristics of manipulative people"..."manipulative tactics"... and other similar word combinations.

Highly intelligent, successful, and talented people can have their lives ruined by manipulators because like me they have a personality that attracts them and falls prey to their tactics. Such people spend enormous resources trying to get their manipulator to "see" and to understand from our perspective - to validate our feelings, etc.

But those are the last things on earth a manipulator will ever do, and they know better than anyone else exactly what they are doing. They do not feel empathy. They do not have compassion. You do. They use that against you.

The only thing you can change is yourself. You must give up trying to change them, to convince them, to please them. It is futile and only serves to weaken you.

With respect to immigration: whenever an oath is to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth there is an important legal reason for that very precise wording. The words "the whole truth" are to prohibit a lie by omission, which is what you are worried about in terms of not letting on about the separation. It is a lie by omission.

The part "nothing but the truth" is put into the oath in order to prevent dissembling, diversion, and related tactics designed to avoid the truth. For example, if Johnny comes home and did not bring his books, the father says "did you bring your books home?" Johnny answers "There was no homework today". That is not the answer to the question, and is designed to defeat the inquiry. It is not an answer giving "nothing but the truth". Hence, it is a violation of the oath to tell "nothing but the truth".

Kathryn41 and others have said to come clean at the interview. It is your duty under the oath you take to do so. Do not argue about this with your spouse. Tell him your decision, and that you have made an important life decision now to cease being manipulated. Do not discuss it. Do not argue. Do not try to convince him. Tell him and then stop talking. There is nothing to talk about. He will push all the buttons he has successfully used in the past with you. The reason you have suffered so much is because he has been using all the things that go right to the core of your inner being against you. It is important for the manipulator to keep you on the defensive, to keep you in a weakened state, to wear you down to the point of complete debilitation so that you can be defeated. Winning is absolutely everything to a manipulator and they will stop at nothing. They have no scruples whatsoever and only feign them when it suits their purpose.

They can turn from a vicious attack on your ego to lavish praise in an instant if it suits them. They will use selective memory, shame, emotional outbursts, accuse you of the very thing they are doing themselves, and try to convince you that you're crazy, immoral, perverted, hypocritical, overly sensitive, etc. It is an amazing array of tactics that can be fired like a machine-gun from years of practice. They think completely differently from us. The anger, tears, flattery, etc. are not real. They are battle tactics. You work under the incorrect assumption that they are sincere, honest people. What you are dealing with is more like a machine than a person.

Please do the reading on manipulative tactics. Follow the advice here about telling the truth. Your responsibility is to your life, your health, and your future.

[Fandango 1,440]

You know what I don't understand? One post you say you don't want to help him, almost that he's emotionally coercing you to do this for him, and the next, you're saying you're not evil with 0 compassion, and you're asking what his approval chances are.

If I worked for immigration, based on what you said alone here....with the circumstantial evidence that there is no comingling of finances, with the fact that within 3 months, your commitment to this marriage is now over and you're sat there lying by omission as far as your intent in this marriage, - add to that the possibility of you actually agreeing tomisrepresent by trying now to comingle on paper just for his approval...well, if I was interviewing you, I'd be suspicious as to whether or not you were complicit in attempting visa fraud.

You need to decide which path you want to take...whether you want to help him, or help yourself. Sounds to me like you would have no problem helping him as long as 1- it didn't take too much longer and 2-you would be guaranteed to not get in trouble, I'm sorry if I'm reading it wrongly, but that's the way I see it from what I've read so far. Fudging the truth to USCIS is not something you want to mess around with, so at the very least, proceed with caution no matter what you do and good luck!