'beat whitey night.' in Des Moines

[The_Dude 1,142]

Rob, I'm not trying to argue, just giving my flip side to the coin here. I really, truly, and honestly do not see that the perp being racist makes the crime worse. I've been thinking about that kid that got set on fire since I read about it on here. What a horrific experience he went through, I can't even imagine the sheer evil of the kids doing it to him. To think that they could have been punished even more severely if the boy was a minority of some sort, or there was racism involved where he was, just kinda baffles me. Evil is evil, no matter what the specific motives.

It's not that I don't think racism is wrong, or a cancer on society. But once things cross the line to law breaking, I think the act itself should be the deciding factors, not the intent behind it.

But thanks for your input!

The only explanation that I can fathom is that I view racism as much more pervasive and harmful dogma that needs to be eliminated.

[Danno 1,228]

The only explanation that I can fathom is that I view racism as much more pervasive and harmful dogma that needs to be eliminated.

When was the last time you saw first hand this Racism which is so pervasive?

As I have said before, I have never even seen it.... and I doubt I typically hang out with a much higher crowd than you do

[slim 1,533]

I'd love to be able to treat everyone as "an individual" and I do try, but at least here, it is very difficult.

Exactly. Because you're not a racist, everyone gets "the benefit of the doubt." However, in many urban areas across the country, folks are willing to waive that benefit rather quickly, even to the point of celebrating it openly so there is no doubt.

These types of numbers suggest the bar is set a lot higher, to prove racial bias for cases in which Whites are victims.

Or they prove that whites aren't often victimized based on race.

If a woman was raped and stabbed because the perp felt like it, or because she was Mexican, and he's a racist...well, does that really change what happened to the woman? She was raped and stabbed regardless. Don't tell me that one has more of a 'terrorizing' effect over the other.

It's not about the effect on the victim, it's about the crime the suspect commits.

That's why there's a higher penalty for murder than manslaughter. For aggravated assault vs. simple assault.

We don't have tougher crack laws because crack is worse than powder. We have tougher crack laws because (it's a "black" drug and) it's possible to victimize more people with the same amount of cocaine in crack rock form.

When it comes to hate crimes, there is a difference between someone who victimizes people because of their race, age, background, etc., and someone who "randomly" victimizes folks. It's illegal to discriminate, even in crime!

the kid as is, is plenty traumatized. Over $40. Someone set a human being on fire for $40. At that point, I don't care what race the perp was, or the victim, or the sexual preference of either. The kid was set on fire. End of. Lock him up and throw away that key.

For $40 AND because he was a certain race. See the difference?

HTF is anyone supposed to quantify Victim A's fear terror as somehow being worse than Victim B? Maybe YOU shouldn't be so quick to endorse it.

The victim's terror level is irrelevant. Putting charges on people isn't based on "the victim" it's based on the offender.

Even in cases like menacing where there has to be a certain level of fear present, it's usually not up to the victim to determine if it was actually present or not. The officer on scene assesses the situation and if the circumstances reasonably appear to warrant a charge, then it's brought about. It could play out in court later that the victim "really was" or "really wasn't" scared, but that's usually irrelevant too since a reasonable person in that situation would feel scared and that's enough for a conviction.

If race (or another possible hate crime factor) is involved in a case, it's typically up to the officers on scene to make that determination. In the OP, coming right out and saying "this was a hate crime" was probably not possible since there were simply too many folks involved to determine the motivation of each offender. Now, if the evidence (as in, witness statements from folks who heard them saying "kill whitey") is presented later, it's possible it could become a hate crime.

I think the act itself should be the deciding factors, not the intent behind it.

Google murder and manslaughter then see if you want to hold onto this argument.

As I have said before, I have never even seen it.... and I doubt I typically hang out with a much higher crowd than you do

I've seen it and been victimized by it. It happens. Racism is far from gone in our society.

If you don't believe me, go to your local "hood" basketball court on nice summer day. See if you get picked. Racists. "I'm just gonna take my ball and go home. Hey, wait... give me my ball back. Guys! My mom bought me that ball. That's my.... UHHHH! You guys are so racist!"

[^_^ 5,021]

If you don't believe me, go to your local "hood" basketball court on nice summer day.

Never trust the product of a dysfunctional family.

[slim 1,533]

Never trust the product of a dysfunctional family.

Seriously, if you want to know what racism or discrimination feels like, head to the courts. It's not like what you see in Hollywood.

[^_^ 5,021]

I know of what you speak.

[Jenn! 918]

If it's a heinous crime, then treat it as such. Regardless of intent. If a woman was raped and stabbed because the perp felt like it, or because she was Mexican, and he's a racist...well, does that really change what happened to the woman? She was raped and stabbed regardless. Don't tell me that one has more of a 'terrorizing' effect over the other.

the "terrorizing effect" does not pertain to the victim, but to the community at large

[Jenn! 918]

Exactly what part of that website were you referring too?

IN that handy-dandy link you posted...the first thing I bumped into was this...

Racial bias

More than half of the single-bias hate crimes were racially motivated. Of the 4,934 victims of these racial bias crimes:

72.9 percent were victims of an offender's anti-black bias.

16.8 percent were victims because of an anti-white bias.

3.4 percent were targeted because of an anti-Asian/Pacific Islander bias.

1.3 percent were victims because of an anti-American Indian/Alaskan Native bias.

5.6 percent were victims because of a bias against a group of individuals in which more than one race was represented (anti-multiple races, group). (Based on Table 1.)

take note, of all the victims of a Racially bias crime.... Blacks which are roughly 14% of the population were 72.9 percent of the victims.

Whites which are a large majority, were only found to be victims of hate or bias crimes in 16.8% of the cases brought in the year 2008.

These types of numbers suggest the bar is set a lot higher, to prove racial bias for cases in which Whites are victims.

http://www.fbi.gov/u...08/victims.html

The data were posted to refute the claim that hate crimes against white victims are never prosected, which is simply not true.

And your argument seems to be based on the assumption that all races are equally likely to commit hate crimes and the disparity in percentages is attributable solely to bias in our justice system.

[IncorrectPolitics 26]

If you don't believe me, go to your local "hood" basketball court on nice summer day. See if you get picked. Racists. "I'm just gonna take my ball and go home. Hey, wait... give me my ball back. Guys! My mom bought me that ball. That's my.... UHHHH! You guys are so racist!"

I was speaking to my wife about this subject last night and she told me about how she was accused of being "a racist white b!tch" during junior high and high school. Do you know why? Because some of the black boys bussed into her school from their neighborhood asked her out a number of times......but my wife refused and ignored them. They said oh what cause I'm black...that why huh what huh!? She said at first she ignored them but one day she got fed up and said yeah that's why, now leave me alone. Since when is it wrong for a girl not to want to go out with another guy? Doesn't matter what they reason is, or if the reason is based on race....it is her choice and she shouldn't be harassed for it!

[HAL 9000 96]

I agree, violence at all is equally unacceptable, but when someone seeks out someone beats them to a bloody mess, not because the wronged them in some way, but because of their sexual preference, race, etc, that is even more abhorrent, and something that our government, and society have deemed unacceptable, hence additional penalties on top of the normal measures taken for violent crimes. You can agree with it or not, but you're sh!t out of luck.

As Hopp stated, a hate crime is simply an enhancement to another crime. There are many many other enhancements that are meant as deterant, that have nothing to do with race. So that point you make is moot.

Its the same kind of logic against illegal alien criminals. If they weren't in the US to begin with, the crimes would not be committed.

If the intent and idea of performing a crime is borne of hate, then not having that intent or idea, means no crime is committed.

There could be the argument that many crimes have premeditation, and to stop that wind from hitting sails, we are reminded that premeditation is also factored into criminal charges as well.

[The_Dude 1,142]

Its the same kind of logic against illegal alien criminals. If they weren't in the US to begin with, the crimes would not be committed.

If the intent and idea of performing a crime is borne of hate, then not having that intent or idea, means no crime is committed.

There could be the argument that many crimes have premeditation, and to stop that wind from hitting sails, we are reminded that premeditation is also factored into criminal charges as well.

Ahh, you hit upon another "enhancement" to a crime, that is not race based.

[HAL 9000 96]

Ahh, you hit upon another "enhancement" to a crime, that is not race based.

I'm sure some folks would try to confuse premeditation with the bigotry that produces hate crimes.

[The_Dude 1,142]

I'm sure some folks would try to confuse premeditation with the bigotry that produces hate crimes.

Which begs the question. If you are against hate crimes as an enhancement, then surely you are against premeditation as an enhancement as well? It does blur context when you remove them from the situation.

[HAL 9000 96]

Which begs the question. If you are against hate crimes as an enhancement, then surely you are against premeditation as an enhancement as well? It does blur context when you remove them from the situation.

Well you are talking about people that have issues with context in the first place...

[Danno 1,228]

The data were posted to refute the claim that hate crimes against white victims are never prosected, which is simply not true.

And your argument seems to be based on the assumption that all races are equally likely to commit hate crimes and the disparity in percentages is attributable solely to bias in our justice system.

Don't believe I said hate crimes are "never" used when a white is the victim, I said the "bar is a lot higher".

72.9 percent were victims of an offender's anti-black bias.

16.8 percent were victims because of an anti-white bias.

3.4 percent were targeted because of an anti-Asian/Pacific Islander bias.

1.3 percent were victims because of an anti-American Indian/Alaskan Native bias.

5.6 percent were victims because of a bias against a group of individuals in which more than one race was represented (anti-multiple races, group). (Based on Table 1.)

Do these numbers really pass the "smell test"... that these laws are being applied even handedly?