What do you believe about Muslims and Islam?

[^_^ 5,021]

something i've always wondered.... why do people have an issue with us saying "Allah" but no one has problem with "Dios" or "Dieu" or "Gott" or "Deus" or any other language ... is it because it's arabic?

The conversation I described, which you are responding to, was between 11 year olds.

Do I have a problem with the word Allah today? No. Do I think it's a little weird that a religion that is supposed to transcend ethnicity and geographic boundaries is somehow tied to the language of the Arabian peninsula? Yes. I do.

But then again, I'm not religious. There's a lot of about religious people I find absurd.

[justashooter 430]

selected segments. see text for citations:

Criticism of Islam

Criticism of Islam has existed since Islam's formative stages. Early written criticism came from Christians, prior to the 9th century, many of whom viewed Islam as a radical Christian heresy.[1] Later there appeared criticism from the Muslim world itself, and also from Jewish writers and from ecclesiastical Christians.[2][3][4]

Objects of criticism include the morality of the life of Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, both in his public and personal life.[4][5] Issues relating to the authenticity and morality of the Qur'an, the Islamic holy book, are also discussed by critics.[6][7] Other criticisms focus on the question of human rights in modern Islamic nations, and the treatment of women in Islamic law and practice.[8][9] In wake of the recent "multiculturalism" trend, Islam's influence on the ability of Muslim immigrants in the West to assimilate has been criticized,.[10]

Muhammad

Main article: Criticism of Muhammad

Muslims consider Muhammad to be the final prophet, the messenger of the final revelation that he called the Qur’an. Muslims believe that Muhammad is righteous, holy, no more than a messenger, a warner and seal of Prophets. However, critics such as Koelle and Ibn Warraq, a former Muslim, see some of his actions as immoral.[4][5]

Another criticism is made by Ayaan Hirsi Ali who denounced Muhammad's marriage, at age 52, to six-year old Aisha, who was nine at the time the marriage was consummated.[41]

Contemporary treatment of accused apostates

Today, out of 57 mostly Islamic countries in OIC, six make apostasy from Islam a crime punishable by death: Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan, Yemen and Somalia.[citation needed] According the US State Department, there have been no reports any executions for apostasy carried out by the government of Saudi Arabia for several years.[66] On the other hand, in Pakistan, vigilante attacks against alleged apostates are common.[67]

Women

Main articles: Women in Islam, Islam and domestic violence, Stoning, and Honor killing

Many have said that "women are not treated as equal members" of Muslim societies[8] and have criticized Islam for condoning this treatment.[9]

The term "Muslim apartheid" has been used to highlight religious isolation in France as well as gender segregation practices.[84][85]

The Catholic Church has warned Christian women about marrying Muslim men because of the "inferior" status of women in Muslim countries and the nonexistence of maternal rights to children.[86]

Islam's influence on the ability of Muslim immigrants in the West to assimilate

See also: Criticism of multiculturalism and Multiculturalism and Islam

The immigration of Muslims to European countries has increased greatly in recent decades, and frictions have developed between these new neighbours. Conservative Muslim social attitudes on modern issues have caused much controversy in Europe and elsewhere, and scholars argue about how much these attitudes are a result of Islamic beliefs.[104]

Some critics consider Islam to be incompatible with secular Western society;[105] their criticism has been partly influenced by a stance against multiculturalism advocated by recent philosophers, closely linked to the heritage of New Philosophers. Fiery polemic on the subject by proponents like Pascal Bruckner,[106] and Paul Cliteur has kindled international debate.[107] They hold multiculturalism to be an invention of an "enlightened" elite who deny the benefits of democratic rights to non-Westerners by chaining them to their roots. They claim this allows Islam free rein to propagate abuses such as the mistreatment of women and homosexuals, and in some countries slavery. They also claim that multiculturalism allows a degree of religious freedom[108] that exceeds what is needed for personal religious freedom[109] and is conducive to the creation of organizations aimed at undermining European secular or Christian values. This tendency to focus criticism of Islam on politics and the non-European identity of its traditions triggered a new debate on Islamophobia.[104]

[zqt3344 21]

Right on Shooter!

selected segments. see text for citations:

Criticism of Islam

Criticism of Islam has existed since Islam's formative stages. Early written criticism came from Christians, prior to the 9th century, many of whom viewed Islam as a radical Christian heresy.[1] Later there appeared criticism from the Muslim world itself, and also from Jewish writers and from ecclesiastical Christians.[2][3][4]

Objects of criticism include the morality of the life of Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, both in his public and personal life.[4][5] Issues relating to the authenticity and morality of the Qur'an, the Islamic holy book, are also discussed by critics.[6][7] Other criticisms focus on the question of human rights in modern Islamic nations, and the treatment of women in Islamic law and practice.[8][9] In wake of the recent "multiculturalism" trend, Islam's influence on the ability of Muslim immigrants in the West to assimilate has been criticized,.[10]

Muhammad

Main article: Criticism of Muhammad

Muslims consider Muhammad to be the final prophet, the messenger of the final revelation that he called the Qur’an. Muslims believe that Muhammad is righteous, holy, no more than a messenger, a warner and seal of Prophets. However, critics such as Koelle and Ibn Warraq, a former Muslim, see some of his actions as immoral.[4][5]

Another criticism is made by Ayaan Hirsi Ali who denounced Muhammad's marriage, at age 52, to six-year old Aisha, who was nine at the time the marriage was consummated.[41]

Contemporary treatment of accused apostates

Today, out of 57 mostly Islamic countries in OIC, six make apostasy from Islam a crime punishable by death: Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan, Yemen and Somalia.[citation needed] According the US State Department, there have been no reports any executions for apostasy carried out by the government of Saudi Arabia for several years.[66] On the other hand, in Pakistan, vigilante attacks against alleged apostates are common.[67]

Women

Main articles: Women in Islam, Islam and domestic violence, Stoning, and Honor killing

Many have said that "women are not treated as equal members" of Muslim societies[8] and have criticized Islam for condoning this treatment.[9]

The term "Muslim apartheid" has been used to highlight religious isolation in France as well as gender segregation practices.[84][85]

The Catholic Church has warned Christian women about marrying Muslim men because of the "inferior" status of women in Muslim countries and the nonexistence of maternal rights to children.[86]

Islam's influence on the ability of Muslim immigrants in the West to assimilate

See also: Criticism of multiculturalism and Multiculturalism and Islam

The immigration of Muslims to European countries has increased greatly in recent decades, and frictions have developed between these new neighbours. Conservative Muslim social attitudes on modern issues have caused much controversy in Europe and elsewhere, and scholars argue about how much these attitudes are a result of Islamic beliefs.[104]

Some critics consider Islam to be incompatible with secular Western society;[105] their criticism has been partly influenced by a stance against multiculturalism advocated by recent philosophers, closely linked to the heritage of New Philosophers. Fiery polemic on the subject by proponents like Pascal Bruckner,[106] and Paul Cliteur has kindled international debate.[107] They hold multiculturalism to be an invention of an "enlightened" elite who deny the benefits of democratic rights to non-Westerners by chaining them to their roots. They claim this allows Islam free rein to propagate abuses such as the mistreatment of women and homosexuals, and in some countries slavery. They also claim that multiculturalism allows a degree of religious freedom[108] that exceeds what is needed for personal religious freedom[109] and is conducive to the creation of organizations aimed at undermining European secular or Christian values. This tendency to focus criticism of Islam on politics and the non-European identity of its traditions triggered a new debate on Islamophobia.[104]

[sandinista! 1,816]

The conversation I described, which you are responding to, was between 11 year olds.

Do I have a problem with the word Allah today? No. Do I think it's a little weird that a religion that is supposed to transcend ethnicity and geographic boundaries is somehow tied to the language of the Arabian peninsula? Yes. I do.

But then again, I'm not religious. There's a lot of about religious people I find absurd.

muslim persians, afghans and others say khuda hafiz-may God be your guardian. some muslim turks say tanri for God too. to my knowledge there's no real taboo on using your own language to refer to God, for muslims.

http://www.nawawi.org/downloads/article2.pdf

[sandinista! 1,816]

a studied christian would disagree. a christian accepts a tri-parite divinity that is connected to man by a sanctified sacrifice (christ). a christian acknowledges that there is no other path into a relationship with god than by admission of the power of the sacrifice of christ, and thereby the identity of christ as god himself, personified. a christian would see allah as a false god put forth by a false prophet.

a studied muslim would not accept the sacrifice or divinity of christ, rather, relying on an alternate path towards a relationship with allah, based on the 5 pillars, the first of which describes allah as the only god, and muhamed as his supreme prophet. a muslim believes that christianity is a perverted form of earlier teachings that provide some of the basis of islam.

interestingly enough, muslims do share a concept for heaven and hell with christians, as well as a concept for bodily ressurection. these concepts are not part of the teachings of the traditional desert religions, and were taken into the koran from christian teaching, which was widespread by the time that muhamed dictated the koran. much of the koran is based on judaism, which had been forced on the desert peoples from time to time throughout the preceeding milenia.

the five pillars, shahadah (recognition of allah and muhamed), salah (prayer rituals), sawm (rammadan related fasting), zakat (tithing for the purpose of maintinance of the poor and supporting the spread of islam), and hajj (pilgrimage ritual) are all close copies of traditional judaism in a slightly modified form, and were useful in the establishment of a superculture within the desert triangle that could be used to organise the nomadic peoples who traditionally inhabited it.

like the hebrew state that preceeded islam in supremacy, the islamic state has a parallel system of governments, secular and religious, and in both cases the religious governemnt was more powerful than the secular. jews have since adopted an exclusively secular government, while muslims have vascilated between secular and religious government, varying with location and time.

unfortunately, the existence of a powerful religious government within many islamic states has fostered the development and continuance of an unspoken "sixth pillar", often described as "lesser jihad", that is warfare against non-muslim peoples. a more pure jihad exists in the form of warfare against the failings of self. perhaps islamics would be wise to drop the concept of the former, and increase adherence to the latter.

so, you see, we are not all "children of the same god".

the attempt to create the illusion that we are is driven partly by the agenda of islam to conquer (convert) members of all other faiths into islam. saying that conversion will not change core beliefs or the nature of an individual's relationship with god reduces the resistance to conversion. it is also driven by an agenda to reduce incitement to wrath by the majority of Americans (98% of which are not muslim) in the interest of keeping good relationships with oil producing economies, many of which are dominated my "islamic" governments.

unitarian christians wouldn't. an arab christian, with an arabic bible wouldn't. arab jews call Him Allah too. there is no hierarchy of prophets in islam either, it's not like they are ranked. chronology is important, in that there was a promise from God that the final messenger's message and the holy book transmitted to him wouldn't be tampered with, but there is no "supreme" prophet.

quran 1:1

genesis 1:1

[sandinista! 1,816]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Islam

all the criticism of islam you can argue with from a non- "hate site".

except that it's not criticism of islam, it's criticism of muslims, and their failings. the two are not interchangeable.

[justashooter 430]

unitarian christians wouldn't. an arab christian, with an arabic bible wouldn't.

unitarians are not christians, by any stretch of the word. arab christians are an extreme minority functioning within the limits of their culture. do you know what chinese muslims call their god? hint - it's not allah.

[justashooter 430]

except that it's not criticism of islam, it's criticism of muslims, and their failings. the two are not interchangeable.

the site chronicles the history of complaints against islam. it describes structural problems with the orthodoxy, and was intended to generate discussion, rather than disregard. read it with an open mind. i used to be a christian, too, but then i read a bit more. today i practice taoistry, the philosophy, not the religion. would that all could do as well.

[^_^ 5,021]

muslim persians, afghans and others say khuda hafiz-may God be your guardian.

Yes, Indians and Bangladeshis (and maybe even Pakistanis) do too. I had forgotten all about that.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

JAS's posts demonstrate once again why Wikipedia and pro-Christianity sites are lousy sources of information about Islam. I know this from having been an editor on the site for several years, engaging in conflict with Islam haters who insist on tainting anything pro or neutral about Islam into anything that would lend doubt as to the validity of the faith.

a studied christian would disagree. a christian accepts a tri-parite divinity that is connected to man by a sanctified sacrifice (christ). a christian acknowledges that there is no other path into a relationship with god than by admission of the power of the sacrifice of christ, and thereby the identity of christ as god himself, personified. a christian would see allah as a false god put forth by a false prophet.

a studied muslim would not accept the sacrifice or divinity of christ, rather, relying on an alternate path towards a relationship with allah, based on the 5 pillars, the first of which describes allah as the only god, and muhamed as his supreme prophet. a muslim believes that christianity is a perverted form of earlier teachings that provide some of the basis of islam.

While it is true that Muslims do not consider Jesus (pbuh) to be divine, he is one of the great prophets of Islam, a line going all the way back to Adam, the first prophet of Islam. Islam does not teach that Muhammad (pbuh) is the supreme prophet of the faith, but that he was the final seal of the prophecy. The message of submission to a divine and omniscient God (Islam) does not derive from Judaism or Christianity, but is a continuation of the Message of God's love and expectations that has existed since the first day of man's creation. Jews, Christians and Muslims are referred to as "ahl al kitab", People of the Book, the Book being the Message that God sent His prophets and messengers to spread throughout the world.

interestingly enough, muslims do share a concept for heaven and hell with christians, as well as a concept for bodily ressurection. these concepts are not part of the teachings of the traditional desert religions, and were taken into the koran from christian teaching, which was widespread by the time that muhamed dictated the koran. much of the koran is based on judaism, which had been forced on the desert peoples from time to time throughout the preceeding milenia.

The Quran is not derived from Christianity, which was riddled with concepts not condoned by Christ by the time the Prophet Muhammad received the first divine revelation from the Archangel Gabriel. I was a huge fan of Greek and Roman mythology as a kid. From those readings, I know that prior to the advent of Christianity, so it could be said that Christianity cloned both from those sources.

the five pillars, shahadah (recognition of allah and muhamed), salah (prayer rituals), sawm (rammadan related fasting), zakat (tithing for the purpose of maintinance of the poor and supporting the spread of islam), and hajj (pilgrimage ritual) are all close copies of traditional judaism in a slightly modified form, and were useful in the establishment of a superculture within the desert triangle that could be used to organise the nomadic peoples who traditionally inhabited it.

The bolded part lost me because there was an existing superstructure organizing the tribes of the Mecca, Medina and much of the larger Arabian peninsula. It was paganism, the major engine of economics in the area. The conflict between its preservation and its surrender to Islam was the primary cause of the battles engaged between the Quraysh and the early Arab Muslims. However, as Islam has existed since Adam, similarities between Judaism and Islam are not inconsistent with that concept.

like the hebrew state that preceeded islam in supremacy, the islamic state has a parallel system of governments, secular and religious, and in both cases the religious governemnt was more powerful than the secular. jews have since adopted an exclusively secular government, while muslims have vascilated between secular and religious government, varying with location and time.

There are no Islamic states. Most Muslim countries are primarily secular in that they follow a mish mash of laws influenced by its particular colonial legacy (if any), tribal norms, and varying interpretations of sharia (divine law) complied into figh judgments (Islamic law) that abide by trends established the local school of jurisprudence.

unfortunately, the existence of a powerful religious government within many islamic states has fostered the development and continuance of an unspoken "sixth pillar", often described as "lesser jihad", that is warfare against non-muslim peoples. a more pure jihad exists in the form of warfare against the failings of self. perhaps islamics would be wise to drop the concept of the former, and increase adherence to the latter.

Now, we're going way of the rails. There being no Islamic states (no, not even Saudi Arabia qualifies as an Islamic state), the first presumption falls apart. The concept of jihad is far more complex and contextual than inferred by the statement. Muslims have no command in the Quran nor in valid ahadith to kill non-believers outside of being attacked and defending oneself. God says in the Quran that He is the One who will judge between us on the Last Day. He says that if He had wished, He would have made us all believe the same, but that our differing beliefs were a test to have us find a way to strive toward Him as one people. He says that He made us into nations and tribes to know each other, not to hate each other. He says there will be Christians and Jews who will enter heaven because their lives, their faith and their deeds have pleased Him.

It would be incorrect for Muslims to kill people on the basis of that we believe them to be noon-Muslim, for only God knows what is in their hearts. Besides, terrorists have proven that they will kill fellow Muslims to make a point. They value no one's life, nor do they value the Word.

so, you see, we are not all "children of the same god".

We are all creations of the God of Abraham. He alone will judge between us.

the attempt to create the illusion that we are is driven partly by the agenda of islam to conquer (convert) members of all other faiths into islam. saying that conversion will not change core beliefs or the nature of an individual's relationship with god reduces the resistance to conversion. it is also driven by an agenda to reduce incitement to wrath by the majority of Americans (98% of which are not muslim) in the interest of keeping good relationships with oil producing economies, many of which are dominated my "islamic" governments.

Your "Islamic" governments do not exist. I'm puzzled as to how "Islam" is going to conquer members of all other faiths. Forced conversions are meaningless since one is called to submit to God willingly and with one's whole being. This paragraph reads like so much paranoia to me.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

The conversation I described, which you are responding to, was between 11 year olds.

Do I have a problem with the word Allah today? No. Do I think it's a little weird that a religion that is supposed to transcend ethnicity and geographic boundaries is somehow tied to the language of the Arabian peninsula? Yes. I do.

But then again, I'm not religious. There's a lot of about religious people I find absurd.

Islam isn't tied to Arabic. That is a contrivance of Arab Muslims exerting cultural chauvinism over non-Arabs. The Quran itself says that the Message was sent to the Arabs in a language they would understand. Since Jesus didn't speak Arabic, and neither did the other earlier prophets, they prayed and taught in their native languages, which was perfectly acceptable to God. On the other hand, Arabic is useful as a unifier, and many Muslims who do not speak conversational Arabic know how to pray in Arabic, so anywhere they go in the world, they can participate in prayers that all understand.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Islam

all the criticism of islam you can argue with from a non- "hate site".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_christianity

In reality, wikipedia is not neutral in re religion. I know that first hand.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I'm not sure what the point of this is. Criticism doesn't equal fact. It's not surprising that adherents to another faith criticize their rivals. It works BOTH ways.

selected segments. see text for citations:

Criticism of Islam

Criticism of Islam has existed since Islam's formative stages. Early written criticism came from Christians, prior to the 9th century, many of whom viewed Islam as a radical Christian heresy.[1] Later there appeared criticism from the Muslim world itself, and also from Jewish writers and from ecclesiastical Christians.[2][3][4]

Objects of criticism include the morality of the life of Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, both in his public and personal life.[4][5] Issues relating to the authenticity and morality of the Qur'an, the Islamic holy book, are also discussed by critics.[6][7] Other criticisms focus on the question of human rights in modern Islamic nations, and the treatment of women in Islamic law and practice.[8][9] In wake of the recent "multiculturalism" trend, Islam's influence on the ability of Muslim immigrants in the West to assimilate has been criticized,.[10]

Muhammad

Main article: Criticism of Muhammad

Muslims consider Muhammad to be the final prophet, the messenger of the final revelation that he called the Qur’an. Muslims believe that Muhammad is righteous, holy, no more than a messenger, a warner and seal of Prophets. However, critics such as Koelle and Ibn Warraq, a former Muslim, see some of his actions as immoral.[4][5]

Another criticism is made by Ayaan Hirsi Ali who denounced Muhammad's marriage, at age 52, to six-year old Aisha, who was nine at the time the marriage was consummated.[41]

Contemporary treatment of accused apostates

Today, out of 57 mostly Islamic countries in OIC, six make apostasy from Islam a crime punishable by death: Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan, Yemen and Somalia.[citation needed] According the US State Department, there have been no reports any executions for apostasy carried out by the government of Saudi Arabia for several years.[66] On the other hand, in Pakistan, vigilante attacks against alleged apostates are common.[67]

Women

Main articles: Women in Islam, Islam and domestic violence, Stoning, and Honor killing

Many have said that "women are not treated as equal members" of Muslim societies[8] and have criticized Islam for condoning this treatment.[9]

The term "Muslim apartheid" has been used to highlight religious isolation in France as well as gender segregation practices.[84][85]

The Catholic Church has warned Christian women about marrying Muslim men because of the "inferior" status of women in Muslim countries and the nonexistence of maternal rights to children.[86]

Islam's influence on the ability of Muslim immigrants in the West to assimilate

See also: Criticism of multiculturalism and Multiculturalism and Islam

The immigration of Muslims to European countries has increased greatly in recent decades, and frictions have developed between these new neighbours. Conservative Muslim social attitudes on modern issues have caused much controversy in Europe and elsewhere, and scholars argue about how much these attitudes are a result of Islamic beliefs.[104]

Some critics consider Islam to be incompatible with secular Western society;[105] their criticism has been partly influenced by a stance against multiculturalism advocated by recent philosophers, closely linked to the heritage of New Philosophers. Fiery polemic on the subject by proponents like Pascal Bruckner,[106] and Paul Cliteur has kindled international debate.[107] They hold multiculturalism to be an invention of an "enlightened" elite who deny the benefits of democratic rights to non-Westerners by chaining them to their roots. They claim this allows Islam free rein to propagate abuses such as the mistreatment of women and homosexuals, and in some countries slavery. They also claim that multiculturalism allows a degree of religious freedom[108] that exceeds what is needed for personal religious freedom[109] and is conducive to the creation of organizations aimed at undermining European secular or Christian values. This tendency to focus criticism of Islam on politics and the non-European identity of its traditions triggered a new debate on Islamophobia.[104]

[BishopM 114]

a studied christian would disagree. a christian accepts a tri-parite divinity that is connected to man by a sanctified sacrifice (christ). a christian acknowledges that there is no other path into a relationship with god than by admission of the power of the sacrifice of christ, and thereby the identity of christ as god himself, personified. a christian would see allah as a false god put forth by a false prophet.

This is not the stance of a studied Catholic.

However, while I was attending a Protestant university, during a comparative religion class, I was surprised that they did teach this mis-information.

Blessings, B

[BishopM 114]

a studied christian would disagree. a christian accepts a tri-parite divinity that is connected to man by a sanctified sacrifice (christ). a christian acknowledges that there is no other path into a relationship with god than by admission of the power of the sacrifice of christ, and thereby the identity of christ as god himself, personified. a christian would see allah as a false god put forth by a false prophet.

My initial post was poorly written, so I've added a bit of clarity below:

"It is not the stance of a studied Catholic that Muslims worship a different God than Christians...or that only Christians will reach Heaven. You are correct though, of course, that we believe in the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, and Christ's sacrfice on the Cross.

However, while I was attending a Protestant university, during a comparative religion class, I was surprised that they did teach that Muslims did not worship the same God a Christians...which was shocking, to say the least."

Blessings, B