Construction Workers Vow Not to Build NYC Mosque

[sandinista! 1,816]

I find this to be very true - and this is what I think Sofiyya is pointing out as well - if you do not understand the historical context at which a certain chapter (forgive my ignorance as to what it is called in the Quran) was written, you could misinterpret the reasoning behind it. Having grown up in Catholic schools all my life does not make me an expert at Canon Law...I'm pretty good at many things, have studied the Bible for years - know it well, but Biblical and religious interpretation is something I deem to leave up to my priests and the hierarchy of the Church.

And one other thing - as to the topic of this thread, I am quite sure that there are laid-off construction workers who would gladly go to NYC and build that mosque. Anyone who thinks that an excellent paying job is something to laugh at or have "morals" over in this day in age is seriously high.

agreed, except for on the last point. i don't think these construction workers who vow not to build cordoba house are crazy to not do it because the economy is so crappy. i take issue because i think their stance is ignorant and bigoted. if it were over a legitimate moral issue, such as refusing to work on a construction project for neo-nazis or the like, then i wouldn't think they were "seriously high", i'd think they were commendable. because cordoba house is not synonymous with neo-nazis or anything like that.

[Staashi 371]

agreed, except for on the last point. i don't think these construction workers who vow not to build cordoba house are crazy to not do it because the economy is so crappy. i take issue because i think their stance is ignorant and bigoted. if it were over a legitimate moral issue, such as refusing to work on a construction project for neo-nazis or the like, then i wouldn't think they were "seriously high", i'd think they were commendable. because cordoba house is not synonymous with neo-nazis or anything like that.

True - my point was that this was about their so-called "morals", bigoted as they are. They would be constructing a mosque, not a terrorist training camp. To snub their nose at a mosque when the economy is terrible and yet there is no real reason to snub their nose at it makes me question what moral high ground they purport to stand on, and that they're a bunch of sheep.

Edited August 25, 2010 by Staashi

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

You are correct to say that you are not a scholar of Islam, because it shows. You are a literalist who doesnt have the training or skill to apply historical context or any order to what you read. You would make a good terrorist recruit because thats about the top skill that they need to have, if they were more knowlegeable, they wouldnt be terrorists.

Merely reading the Quran does not denote understanding of the context, meaning, or weight of the verses; that is what study is for, As I said before, Islam has many messengers and prophets who learned, prayed and taught in many languages, all of which God understands. God tells us that the Message is protected, so the preference of one language over another is a social contrivance. The Bible wasn't written in English, or Spanish, etc., but is understood in those languages as much as divine revelation can be understood by man. The same is true for the Quran.

I have devoted my life to the study and practice of Islam. It's interesting that there are non-Muslims who not only sincerely believe that they know more about Islam than a practicing student of the faith. Is there no reward in humility and the acceptance that there is so much more to know, and that you could be wrong?

Yes, well you've devoted your life to studying Islam. You now have YOUR understanding of Islam. Which particular sect does your understanding conform to? Sunni? Sufi? Shia? Ahmaddi? Any particular school of fiqh? Do you consider the hadith to be an integral part of the sunnah, or are you a "Quran only" muslim? Would an Ahmaddi, for example, agree with your understanding of Islam?

I'm hardly a literalist when it comes to the Quran. As I said before, I think it's a fairy tale. I don't take any of it literally. But there are Muslims who do. It's not my interpretation of the Quran you need to attack - I have no interpretation - I disregard it entirely. The interpretation you should be attacking are those who use it as justification to declare war on the non-Muslim world. Have you ever read Bin Laden's declaration of war on the United States? I think he makes quite effective use of Quranic scripture to justify everything he's doing.

Yes, Islam has many messengers and prophets - all came before Muhammad, the "final Prophet", and the writings that existed about them up until the 7th century have been discarded out of hand by the Quran as being "corrupt", and therefore not reliable. The Quran itself claims to be the only reliable source of information about the messages of Moses, Abraham, and Jesus. I think it's ironic that you, a lifetime scholar of Islam, would refer to the Bible as "divine revelation" when it's clear that Allah did not hold the Bible, in it's form that has existed since Muhammad's time, in very high regard. I doubt you'll find many "people of the Book" who share Allah's assessment of their scripture.

Again, it doesn't matter if I'm wrong. The Islamic extremists say you're wrong. This isn't a debate between Muslims and non-Muslims. This is debate within the ranks of Islam itself. The extremists get their guidance from the same book you do. When I look at other religions and don't see the same sort of extremism, I have to conclude that the extremism exists within the religion. I don't, on the other hand, believe that the extremism exists in most Muslims.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

Yes, well you've devoted your life to studying Islam. You now have YOUR understanding of Islam. Which particular sect does your understanding conform to? Sunni? Sufi? Shia? Ahmaddi? Any particular school of fiqh? Do you consider the hadith to be an integral part of the sunnah, or are you a "Quran only" muslim? Would an Ahmaddi, for example, agree with your understanding of Islam?

I'm hardly a literalist when it comes to the Quran. As I said before, I think it's a fairy tale. I don't take any of it literally. But there are Muslims who do. It's not my interpretation of the Quran you need to attack - I have no interpretation - I disregard it entirely. The interpretation you should be attacking are those who use it as justification to declare war on the non-Muslim world. Have you ever read Bin Laden's declaration of war on the United States? I think he makes quite effective use of Quranic scripture to justify everything he's doing.

Yes, Islam has many messengers and prophets - all came before Muhammad, the "final Prophet", and the writings that existed about them up until the 7th century have been discarded out of hand by the Quran as being "corrupt", and therefore not reliable. The Quran itself claims to be the only reliable source of information about the messages of Moses, Abraham, and Jesus. I think it's ironic that you, a lifetime scholar of Islam, would refer to the Bible as "divine revelation" when it's clear that Allah did not hold the Bible, in it's form that has existed since Muhammad's time, in very high regard. I doubt you'll find many "people of the Book" who share Allah's assessment of their scripture.

Again, it doesn't matter if I'm wrong. The Islamic extremists say you're wrong. This isn't a debate between Muslims and non-Muslims. This is debate within the ranks of Islam itself. The extremists get their guidance from the same book you do. When I look at other religions and don't see the same sort of extremism, I have to conclude that the extremism exists within the religion. I don't, on the other hand, believe that the extremism exists in most Muslims.

Very well said!

I think you will find though, depending on the circumstance, you will either get "Islam is very similar to Christianity" in the good sense, or "Christians behaved horribly ___________" generally fill in the blank a few hundred years ago or longer or conflate a horrific act by "Christians" done for other reasons, with "Horrific act in the name of Christianity."

The "you have no idea/clue about Islam or Muslims and thus have no right to speak of them" comes gratis with every discussion.

Edited August 26, 2010 by ready4ONE

[Pooky 3,783]

And one other thing - as to the topic of this thread, I am quite sure that there are laid-off construction workers who would gladly go to NYC and build that mosque. Anyone who thinks that an excellent paying job is something to laugh at or have "morals" over in this day in age is seriously high.

Depends on where the unions stand. If the unions support this pledge, as a number of their members seem to, then it's unlikely to get very far.

That's not to say you can't do non-union construction in NYC, just that it's very difficult.

[lostinblue 1,989]

Depends on where the unions stand. If the unions support this pledge, as a number of their members seem to, then it's unlikely to get very far.

That's not to say you can't do non-union construction in NYC, just that it's very difficult.

The mafia controls all of the big construction in ny city.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I hope you will forgive me if I don't get as excited about your rebuttal as ready4one did. Unlike him, I actually noticed that you stated the obvious about your views - that you don't care enough about the Quran or Islamto offer more than a trite analysis, which you did, and that you don't have an interpretation worthy of discussion.

I'm not speaking to Bin Laden on VJ, but if I was, I would remind him that his interpretation, based on the same Sword Verses posted before, is very limited. He has been able to take that inch of understanding and stretch it out to several miles in the minds of gullible non-Muslims who encourage us to focus on what he has managed to focus them on, as if there is no more to Islam than the Sword verses.

I don't do that because I'm not gullible, nor do I see what Bin Laden and his ilk espouse as the beginning point of the discussion. That may sell books, but it's lousy scholarship. Scholarship is what is required to combat terrorist who kill in the name of Islam. People only bolster their enemy when they insist on letting them lead the discussion rather than acknowledging that there is a much larger segment of Muslims who aren't buying their bull.

So. why do some non-Muslims insist on buying terrorist bull, then trying to sell it back to knowledgeable Muslims as if it is the only game in town? Why be offended when advised to open YOUR minds to something other than terrorist rhetoric? If you can't rise above that, you're quite useless to combat what you fear. If this is a war between Muslims and conflicting interpretive narratives, accept that you are not equipt to lead, nor even to advise, but are needed to learn and support those who do possess the tools to create change within. Why fight anyone who doesn't bind themselves to a back of the cereal box understanding of the faith, it's adherents and the stereotypes surrounding them? That's no way to move forward, and staying in place is a losing strategy, for sure.

Yes, well you've devoted your life to studying Islam. You now have YOUR understanding of Islam. Which particular sect does your understanding conform to? Sunni? Sufi? Shia? Ahmaddi? Any particular school of fiqh? Do you consider the hadith to be an integral part of the sunnah, or are you a "Quran only" muslim? Would an Ahmaddi, for example, agree with your understanding of Islam?

I'm hardly a literalist when it comes to the Quran. As I said before, I think it's a fairy tale. I don't take any of it literally. But there are Muslims who do. It's not my interpretation of the Quran you need to attack - I have no interpretation - I disregard it entirely. The interpretation you should be attacking are those who use it as justification to declare war on the non-Muslim world. Have you ever read Bin Laden's declaration of war on the United States? I think he makes quite effective use of Quranic scripture to justify everything he's doing.

Yes, Islam has many messengers and prophets - all came before Muhammad, the "final Prophet", and the writings that existed about them up until the 7th century have been discarded out of hand by the Quran as being "corrupt", and therefore not reliable. The Quran itself claims to be the only reliable source of information about the messages of Moses, Abraham, and Jesus. I think it's ironic that you, a lifetime scholar of Islam, would refer to the Bible as "divine revelation" when it's clear that Allah did not hold the Bible, in it's form that has existed since Muhammad's time, in very high regard. I doubt you'll find many "people of the Book" who share Allah's assessment of their scripture.

Again, it doesn't matter if I'm wrong. The Islamic extremists say you're wrong. This isn't a debate between Muslims and non-Muslims. This is debate within the ranks of Islam itself. The extremists get their guidance from the same book you do. When I look at other religions and don't see the same sort of extremism, I have to conclude that the extremism exists within the religion. I don't, on the other hand, believe that the extremism exists in most Muslims.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

To Sofyaa that response was also well said. I mean that sincerely. No big glass of shut up, but a well reasoned response of an opposing point of view.

[HAL 9000 96]

Sofi if you were speaking with Bin Laden I'm sure most of us would want you to tell us...

[IncorrectPolitics 26]

Sofi if you were speaking with Bin Laden I'm sure most of us would want you to tell us...

Sometimes I think Bin Laden is a mythical character being kept alive by different actors. He's probably dead somewhere in his rotten hole that he crawled out of. Although if he is alive it would be great to capture him and get the reward money!