Freedom of speech

[Captain Oates 911]

Funny how you confirm our opinion of England.

That was a mistake - you should concentrate on trying to portray me as someone who doesn't belong in the US and try and isolate me rather than trying to smear the whole of England and all of the English. If you are going to play politics you need to be cleverer than that.

Unless of course you really don't like the English in which case you should find the guts to say it - and list why - setting out a coherent position in more than one sentence..

The difference is that I have come to live in the USA and take part in it's politics and social development. I pay my worldwide taxes here and so I am entitled to list things I want to see changed and set out the direction of that - whereas you don't live in England and therefore it would be just xenophobia and ethnic prejudice for nothing more than gratuitous spite.

Americans are not entitled to say that legal immigrants should have no say in the development of US life and should keep their noses out and everything must remain 'as is'

Same problem in Aus and NZ and Canada and in any group where the newcomer is meant to kow-tow to the ones who joined earlier. Heck when I was 10 the kids took my new hat and threw it down the frog hole and spit on it. That's what happens to newcomers to the group. It's just an unfortunate human trait which shows how close some of us are to the other primates

In that regard some of the Americans who post on here are no different to established citizens of other Countries, groups, clubs, covens, klans - and they are just resentful because sometimes the incomers take their women and then their kid becomes president.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

That was a mistake - you should concentrate on trying to portray me as someone who doesn't belong in the US and try and isolate me rather than trying to smear the whole of England and all of the English. If you are going to play politics you need to be cleverer than that.

Unless of course you really don't like the English in which case you should find the guts to say it - and list why - setting out a coherent position in more than one sentence..

The difference is that I have come to live in the USA and take part in it's politics and social development. I pay my worldwide taxes here and so I am entitled to list things I want to see changed and set out the direction of that - whereas you don't live in England and therefore it would be just xenophobia and ethnic prejudice for nothing more than gratuitous spite.

Americans are not entitled to say that legal immigrants should have no say in the development of US life and should keep their noses out and everything must remain 'as is'

Same problem in Aus and NZ and Canada and in any group where the newcomer is meant to kow-tow to the ones who joined earlier. Heck when I was 10 the kids took my new hat and threw it down the frog hole and spit on it. That's what happens to newcomers to the group. It's just an unfortunate human trait which shows how close some of us are to the other primates

In that regard some of the Americans who post on here are no different to established citizens of other Countries, groups, clubs, covens, klans - and they are just resentful because sometimes the incomers take their women and then their kid becomes president.

Actually, yes they are. That's why you have to be here for several years before you have the chance to even be considered to become a citizen. Even then, it's not guaranteed. You have no vote otherwise.

[slim 1,525]

Apparently people being shot dead weekly, is still not enough to violate their Constitutional rights.

Many of those who are shot and/or doing the shooting have had their 2A rights removed already. Yet you're lopping them into the same group with the rest of us?

Keep in mind, they may've had their 2A rights taken away, but they still retain their 1A rights. I can't think of a single situation where 1A rights should ever be suspended. Ever. Also, it's possible for many felons to have their 2A rights reinstated once they've done their time.

there are huge numbers of educated and gentle and empathetic Americans who simply never post in these forums.

Those folks are also the type that move away from problems and throw money at them instead of taking proactive stances and fixing them.

I really don't know why this place is full of the hang em, flog em, shoot em and 'we hate furryners' types..

I don't see the "we hate furryners" types on here. I have seen several "they should immigrate legally or not at all" types. Treating a criminal like a criminal is not necessarily bad or wrong, even if it makes you uncomfortable.

But hey, if you're not comfortable, move to the suburbs and throw money at our problems. Eventually they'll go away, right?

your wonderful country you come from would not allow you to do the same.

The difference between our country and yours is if we want to be heard, we have the right to take up arms and make ourselves be heard. You guys don't have that option because someone with a gun will come in and silence you.

I am here to take the US forward along with people who think like me (Your own president for instance ?), and we are not impressed by the idea that only a southern neo con gun toting agenda is patriotic...

You, like the others, are fickle and will fall for whatever "reasonable idea" that comes along - hence Obama. The reason our constitution has remained largely intact is because it was not written to be "changed with the times" it was written to "set the tone" of the times.

So many places around the world have changed theirs to "meet the needs of the people" instead of having the people meet the needs of their country. The truly great thing about our constitution is it allows us to have liberty and be free while still requiring us to be responsible for those freedoms.

Get used to the idea that progressive liberal thought is the future for the USA and people like me will be the majority (already are) and people like you are being consigned to history because hate has had it's day.

It may've had it's day and you can argue strength in numbers and we're going to change the world all you want because eventually, you're going to run out of other peoples' money and when that happens.... you not only don't have enough bullets... you don't have any.

If you think for a second that "the mob" is going to democratically rule once the dollar fails and the power goes out, you've got another thing coming. But hey, keep leading them in that direction. Makes my job a lot easier!

[Gemmie 142]

Actually, yes they are. That's why you have to be here for several years before you have the chance to even be considered to become a citizen. Even then, it's not guaranteed. You have no vote otherwise.

Seeing as saywhat is going to be a US citizen in a few months, I think he's actually entitled to think about the direction he wants the country to go towards. Heck, even I have the right to think what I like about US development and what I would like to change if I could, even if I'm not allowed to put a vote in yet. Once I was told that I wasn't allowed to think and because I believed in a national health service, that everything that happened once I voted was my fault. It's what people like to call Freedom of Speech. Just like how in the UK, immigrants have the right to talk about their views on social policies. It might come across as offensive, but isn't that what this topic is about? At what point is freedom of speech not allowed? Whose opinion are we allowed to be angry at?

Edited August 19, 2010 by Gemmie

[^_^ 5,021]

Seeing as saywhat is going to be a US citizen in a few months, I think he's actually entitled to think about the direction he wants the country to go towards. Heck, even I have the right to think what I like about US development and what I would like to change if I could, even if I'm not allowed to put a vote in yet. Once I was told that I wasn't allowed to think and because I believed in a national health service, that everything that happened once I voted was my fault. It's what people like to call Freedom of Speech. Just like how in the UK, immigrants have the right to talk about their views on social policies. It might come across as offensive, but isn't that what this topic is about? At what point is freedom of speech not allowed? Whose opinion are we allowed to be angry at?

You can be angry at anyone for anything. That's your right too.

[Gemmie 142]

Exactly. I don't want to see any ban for freedom of speech, I think PC is already too rampant in America. The other day I said "wasn't so-and-so sectioned?" and people turned to look at me as though I had suggested she was possessed by the devil. The proper term is 'placed in a short-term treatment programme'. You can't say anything on TV without getting it bleeped or dubbed. The other day I saw "####", "shut up" "hate" and "sucks" get muted from daytime TV. I noticed that they took the word "sexy" out from a commercial and replaced it with "sassy". Commercials are five-minutes long because they have to list all of the disclaimers in case someone sues them. I think it's crazy.

ETA: The irony that "as5' is also censored on here.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Gemmie

[Ban Hammer 13,340]

ETA: The irony that "as5' is also censored on here.

and bosco is very upset about that!

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Seeing as saywhat is going to be a US citizen in a few months, I think he's actually entitled to think about the direction he wants the country to go towards. Heck, even I have the right to think what I like about US development and what I would like to change if I could, even if I'm not allowed to put a vote in yet. Once I was told that I wasn't allowed to think and because I believed in a national health service, that everything that happened once I voted was my fault. It's what people like to call Freedom of Speech. Just like how in the UK, immigrants have the right to talk about their views on social policies. It might come across as offensive, but isn't that what this topic is about? At what point is freedom of speech not allowed? Whose opinion are we allowed to be angry at?

While you're right on Freedom of Speech, it doesn't change the fact that it's utterly disgusting for someone to move to this nation for whatever reason and then want to change things. If you don't like the way things are, if you like the way your home country did things, then STAY in your home country. We do things one way here, you do things another way there. There's nothing inherently wrong with that.

It's the same thing here in the US when people move to another state because the economy in that state is better, etc. and then they want to change the way that state does things. Obviously you came to that place for one reason or another. Especially those who move for economic reasons and then want to screw the taxes, spending, etc. in the place they move to.

My point is, if you liked the old ways, stay in the old place. If you moved to the new place, YOU need to assimilate and adjust, not the other way around.

[Gemmie 142]

While you're right on Freedom of Speech, it doesn't change the fact that it's utterly disgusting for someone to move to this nation for whatever reason and then want to change things.

A few years ago I would've agreed with that, but I've since opened my eyes.

I have a friend that wants to move to the US solely to help African-Americans on death rowe because she feels passionately defensive about their welfare. If she wants to come here and try to change how things are done, and she can get the US government to approve her work visa to do so, then I think that's good for her.

Likewise, I think if someone goes through all of the health/criminal/marriage checks for several years and the US government decides to give them the stamp of approval to say they're now Americans, then they have the right to want to change things.

[Captain Oates 911]

Actually, yes they are. That's why you have to be here for several years before you have the chance to even be considered to become a citizen. Even then, it's not guaranteed. You have no vote otherwise.

In the list of USCIS questions it asks what rights are guaranteed for ALL persons living in the USA and the right of free speech is listed as an answer. That right is NOT just for Citizens. I look forward to getting the vote in 12 weeks time and using it to nullify and cancel out one of the votes of the extreme right wing people who post on here. I will chose which one later.

The US Constitution guarantees me, as a resident, free speech, free thought and free expression and yes the right to political activity too. That guy John Lennon who was born 70 miles away from me was politically active on a green card status

All day long I hear that non-citizens have NO RIGHTS and it's so ironic that the people who say that, are the biggest supposed constitution and bible freaks that there are ! They don't know their own Constitution. Luckily, ignorance comes as a set with that political viewpoint so they are easy to neutralize

There are people at my gun club who think illegals can legally be shot out of hand because 'THEY HAVE NO RIGHTS'

I was reading about my area in the last century and it was rife with KKK -I mean there were millions and millions in the US. They burned down towns and lynched Chinese and Japanese and black people. Drove them out of their towns and burned their houses. This was within 50 miles of where I am right now . This was all at a time when my mother was an adult - we are not talking prehistoric times.

The USA needs to get nice quickly and clinging to these ideas about outsiders and clinging to god, guns and the right to hate speech is clearly on the slide decade after decade. It's a one way street politically and the right wing haters are losing all the time.

Women's rights, domestic violence issues, votes for non-householders, votes at 18, votes for black people, and now a toe in the water for universal health care - the entire direction of the USA is for it to become 'nicer'

Hate speech has been given notice.

For the lady who thinks I am talking about banning non-PC talk in the office - please concentrate.

Edited August 19, 2010 by saywhat

[Obama 2012 1,714]

A few years ago I would've agreed with that, but I've since opened my eyes.

I have a friend that wants to move to the US solely to help African-Americans on death rowe because she feels passionately defensive about their welfare. If she wants to come here and try to change how things are done, and she can get the US government to approve her work visa to do so, then I think that's good for her.

Likewise, I think if someone goes through all of the health/criminal/marriage checks for several years and the US government decides to give them the stamp of approval to say they're now Americans, then they have the right to want to change things.

See, this is where this idea is dangerous.

I mean look at the last guy who tried to detonate a car bomb in NYC. He stuck around, got his citizenship, did the right thing, then tries to blow up Times Square.....

Especially when you have an outsider ilke your friend wanting to come in and change things already.... It's one thing to live here for awhile and see something you don't like and want to change it. It's completely different to come from the outside with the intent on getting citizenship to change things.

No matter how "noble" a cause might seem at the time, things work the way they work for a reason. That's not to say there's imperfections, but there's always going to be imperections. Whether it be to your or me living here, or whether it be to someone on the outside who doesn't like what they see here. Americans are guilty of this especially when viewing other nations and wanting to change things, eventhough we have no business doing so.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

In the list of USCIS questions it asks what rights are guaranteed for ALL persons living in the USA and the right of free speech is listed as an answer. That right is NOT just for Citizens. I look forward to getting the vote in 12 weeks time and using it to nullify and cancel out one of the votes of the extreme right wing people who post on here. I will chose which one later.

The US Constitution guarantees me, as a resident, free speech, free thought and free expression and yes the right to political activity too. That guy John Lennon who was born 70 miles away from me was politically active on a green card status

All day long I hear that non-citizens have NO RIGHTS and it's so ironic that the people who say that, are the biggest supposed constitution and bible freaks that there are ! They don't know their own Constitution. Luckily, ignorance comes as a set with that political viewpoint so they are easy to neutralize

There are people at my gun club who think illegals can legally be shot out of hand because 'THEY HAVE NO RIGHTS'

I was reading about my area in the last century and it was rife with KKK -I mean there were millions and millions in the US. They burned down towns and lynched Chinese and Japanese and black people. Drove them out of their towns and burned their houses. This was within 50 miles of where I am right now . This was all at a time when my mother was an adult - we are not talking prehistoric times.

The USA needs to get nice quickly and clinging to these ideas about outsiders and clinging to god, guns and the right to hate speech is clearly on the slide decade after decade. It's a one way street politically and the right wing haters are losing all the time.

Women's rights, domestic violence issues, votes for non-householders, votes at 18, votes for black people, and now a toe in the water for universal health care - the entire direction of the USA is for it to become 'nicer'

Hate speech has been given notice.

For the lady who thinks I am talking about banning non-PC talk in the office - please concentrate.

So what you're saying is you're a Fascist? You want to come in and impose your views and make people act the way you want them to? Speak in public the way you want them to. Pathetic.

The KKK whether you like them or not, have the right to march around and say "white power, down with blacks" or whatever other idiotic things they might say. Just as the Black Panthers have the right to do the opposite and fight for their cause. Just becaue you don't "like" it, doesn't mean that you have the right to silence them.

You claim to want to shut down the far-right wing extremes, when you're acting like a complete far-left wing nutbar yourself. Neither one is very appealing, especially to the average American.

While many people think it's ridiculous for people to say some hateful things, you'll find very few that are willing to give up that ability to say those hateful things. It leads down a road as mentioned before that isn't pleasant. You mention countries ilke Germany. Here's one for you. Did you know you can end up in jail for up to a year for saying publicly that you deny the holocaust? I mean come on.. Is that the kind of nation you really want to live in? If so, that's sad and it's Fascist as I said in the beginning of this post.

[Captain Oates 911]

While you're right on Freedom of Speech, it doesn't change the fact that it's utterly disgusting for someone to move to this nation for whatever reason and then want to change things. If you don't like the way things are, if you like the way your home country did things, then STAY in your home country. We do things one way here, you do things another way there. There's nothing inherently wrong with that.

It's the same thing here in the US when people move to another state because the economy in that state is better, etc. and then they want to change the way that state does things. Obviously you came to that place for one reason or another. Especially those who move for economic reasons and then want to screw the taxes, spending, etc. in the place they move to.

My point is, if you liked the old ways, stay in the old place. If you moved to the new place, YOU need to assimilate and adjust, not the other way around.

Didn't you go to Iraq to do that ?

You assume that the USA is politically homogeneous and I am the lone outsider wanting to change things. In fact the majority of Americans voted to change things and I will become allied with them. How can an immigrant who allies himself with the majority political party in America be an unacceptable outsider who should be told to go home ?

If I came here and tried to change things back to white supremacy and no votes for blacks, you would applaud my arrival.

Every immigrant should learn this : For every grisly right winger telling you to get out and to leave everything as it is for perpetuity, there are two Americans who are working for constant change for the better. They are the true patriots. No country is perfect and every country needs constant striving to change for the better.

Unfortunately the kinder Americans are quiet on these forums for reasons that I can only guess at - but they are still the majority.

[BobandXiaomei 14]

In the list of USCIS questions it asks what rights are guaranteed for ALL persons living in the USA and the right of free speech is listed as an answer. That right is NOT just for Citizens. I look forward to getting the vote in 12 weeks time and using it to nullify and cancel out one of the votes of the extreme right wing people who post on here. I will chose which one later.

The US Constitution guarantees me, as a resident, free speech, free thought and free expression and yes the right to political activity too. That guy John Lennon who was born 70 miles away from me was politically active on a green card status

All day long I hear that non-citizens have NO RIGHTS and it's so ironic that the people who say that, are the biggest supposed constitution and bible freaks that there are ! They don't know their own Constitution. Luckily, ignorance comes as a set with that political viewpoint so they are easy to neutralize

There are people at my gun club who think illegals can legally be shot out of hand because 'THEY HAVE NO RIGHTS'

I was reading about my area in the last century and it was rife with KKK -I mean there were millions and millions in the US. They burned down towns and lynched Chinese and Japanese and black people. Drove them out of their towns and burned their houses. This was within 50 miles of where I am right now . This was all at a time when my mother was an adult - we are not talking prehistoric times.

The USA needs to get nice quickly and clinging to these ideas about outsiders and clinging to god, guns and the right to hate speech is clearly on the slide decade after decade. It's a one way street politically and the right wing haters are losing all the time.

Women's rights, domestic violence issues, votes for non-householders, votes at 18, votes for black people, and now a toe in the water for universal health care - the entire direction of the USA is for it to become 'nicer'

Hate speech has been given notice.

For the lady who thinks I am talking about banning non-PC talk in the office - please concentrate.

I agree with you for the most part.

Keep in mind there are some people (and by now you know who they are) that want the USA to be like it was in the 1950s where women, minorities and immigrants (legal or otherwise) "knew their place" and stayed there with their mouths shut. Perhaps other countries have people with the same mentality. It's pointless to discuss a topic with them.

[Peikko 1,575]

So what you're saying is you're a Fascist? You want to come in and impose your views and make people act the way you want them to? Speak in public the way you want them to. Pathetic.

The KKK whether you like them or not, have the right to march around and say "white power, down with blacks" or whatever other idiotic things they might say. Just as the Black Panthers have the right to do the opposite and fight for their cause. Just becaue you don't "like" it, doesn't mean that you have the right to silence them.

You claim to want to shut down the far-right wing extremes, when you're acting like a complete far-left wing nutbar yourself. Neither one is very appealing, especially to the average American.

While many people think it's ridiculous for people to say some hateful things, you'll find very few that are willing to give up that ability to say those hateful things. It leads down a road as mentioned before that isn't pleasant. You mention countries ilke Germany. Here's one for you. Did you know you can end up in jail for up to a year for saying publicly that you deny the holocaust? I mean come on.. Is that the kind of nation you really want to live in? If so, that's sad and it's Fascist as I said in the beginning of this post.

Most Europeans not only know this, they know and can identify the reasons why Germans; who suffered at the hands of real FASCISTS. chose to have such a law and why although it is probably no longer as necessary as it once was, there is no demand to repeal it. You, who do not know what fascism is, let alone why having Germans deny the holocaust might possibly be problematic would have no clue, clearly.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Madame Cleo