CIS, I-751, AR-11 and other stories

[RealPi 0]

Hi all

I would like to present an interesting thing that happened to us today as regards a letter we received from CIS. First though, the background to the story.

We were living in St Louis last year and we moved to Wisconsin last June. A few days after we moved we sent both my change of address form (AR-11) and my wife's (the sponsor's) change of address form (I-865)priority mail to the appropriate addresses (DHS/USCIS Services, London, KY and Nebraska Service Center, Lincoln, NE respectively) with signature confirmation and photocopying the post office forms at the post office before they left (we asked the post office personnel and they were kind enough to oblige). A few days later, both forms arrived at their respective addresses and we received signature confirmation by email which we printed for our records. It is important to also note that at the time I did not have any pending cases running with CIS; I already had my conditional green card. Nevertheless I did call the USCIS Customer Service phone number just to make sure, and a rep confirmed to me that since I had no pending case with CIS, sending AR-11 (and of course I-865) were all that was needed. A few days later we also received an NOA I-797C for receipt of the I-865 form from Nebraska telling us all was OK and they showed the correct new address. However I never received an NOA for the AR-11 but I figured that this was just a change of address and they may not send any information on the matter.

At the end of October, my green card expires so I and the wife had in the meantime already prepared the I-751 joint petition with all the appropriate material and evidence and sent it within the 90-days window, a few days ago. It was received on Monday by a CIS officer at the California Service Center (where the Wisconsin I-751 applications are meant to go to).

So far so good.

Today I received a strange letter from USCIS, from the Nebraska Service Center which I found odd as I had been expecting an NOA from CSV. However, this was nothing to do with my I-751 form but the following thing happened.

Apparently, DHS/USCIS (from 850 S St PO Box 87751, Lincoln NE 68501-7751) wrote to me to inform me that:

"The records of the Service indicate that you entered the US as a conditional permanent resident on [DATE]. In accordance with Section 216 of the Immigration and Nationality Act you must file Form I-751, Petition to Remove Conditions on Residence. Failure to do so may result in the automatic termination of your Status. You can obtain From I-751 ....[etc etc]".

So it was kind of nice of them that they now INFORM immigrants with conditional cards about 90 days before the expiration of their conditional green card that they need to file I-751 within said window. However, this was not sent to us in Wisconsin but to our old address in Missouri! The post office that has been redirecting our post all along, saw it, presumably contacted CIS, so what I received in the end was the above letter from CIS from Nebraska (with a redirection notice from the post office) together with an additional note from Nebraska Center saying:

"We received notification that your address has changed. If this is incorrect please contact the Service Center immediately. If your address has changed you must also complete an AR-11 Change of Address form and mail it to the following address in order for us to completely process your address change: [London, KY address follows]

Every person over the age of 14 who is not a citizen of the US or in diplomatic status must complete a Form AR-11 within 10 days of an address change. An AR-11 form has been provided on the reverse of this letter for your convenience. Where possible please provide an A-number (from your alien card) or other identifying numbers. You must complete the Form AR-11 and mail it to the above London, KY address. Failure to complete all applicabler sections may delay processing of the form. Please disregard this notice if you have submitted an AR-11 form to DHS/USCIS within the last two weeks to the address listed above.

You may obtain additional copies of the AR-11 form from...[etc]"

Of course they sent this not realizing I had already done this a year ago when we moved to Wisconsin; it was they who were in error.

I called Customer Service phone number and was told that it happens sometimes that the CIS sends the info by mistake to the old address and I should make an infopass appointment to speak with an immigration information officer as soon as possible so that the record of the address is properly registered with CIS. He also told me that there is nothing to worry with regards the I-751 form that was sent as regards awaiting an NOA from them, but I should speak with an officer as soon as I can about the issue of the address.

Well, I did make an appointment for me and my wife (it would be good for her to come too) at our local center for next Wednesday (it is a couple of hours drive), which is the earliest we can make it. I will bring these letters I received, all the evidence that AR-11 and I-865 were sent on time and who received them as well as the NOA for the I-865 we got back plus of course the INFOPASS receipt (and ID for both of us) including a copy of the I-751 package signature confirmation when it arrived in California.

Beyond this, is there anything else I should bring with me?

Also, is there anything else I should perhaps do? Is it possible e.g. to contact the Nebraska Service Center and let them know directly before Wednesday about this issue or should I just wait to speak to an officer on Wednesday? And if I should contact the Nebraska Center what are their phone numbers? Who should I speak with?

Anyway, does anyone have any ideas if I should do anything else in the meantime or should I just wait until we go to our local service center on Wednesday?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions and help!

Real Pi

(P.S. Note: In case someone is confused why I received this info from Nebraska Service Center, the reason is that if they think we still live in Missouri, they are responsible for our I-751 forms and not California Service Center (where we of course sent it correctly to since the I-751 apps from Wisconsin go to CSV instead).

Edited August 13, 2010 by RealPi

[LA80 3]

Hi all

I would like to present an interesting thing that happened to us today as regards a letter we received from CIS. First though, the background to the story.

We were living in St Louis last year and we moved to Wisconsin last June. A few days after we moved we sent both my change of address form (AR-11) and my wife's (the sponsor's) change of address form (I-865)priority mail to the appropriate addresses (DHS/USCIS Services, London, KY and Nebraska Service Center, Lincoln, NE respectively) with signature confirmation and photocopying the post office forms at the post office before they left (we asked the post office personnel and they were kind enough to oblige). A few days later, both forms arrived at their respective addresses and we received signature confirmation by email which we printed for our records. It is important to also note that at the time I did not have any pending cases running with CIS; I already had my conditional green card. Nevertheless I did call the USCIS Customer Service phone number just to make sure, and a rep confirmed to me that since I had no pending case with CIS, sending AR-11 (and of course I-865) were all that was needed. A few days later we also received an NOA I-797C for receipt of the I-865 form from Nebraska telling us all was OK and they showed the correct new address. However I never received an NOA for the AR-11 but I figured that this was just a change of address and they may not send any information on the matter.

At the end of October, my green card expires so I and the wife had in the meantime already prepared the I-751 joint petition with all the appropriate material and evidence and sent it within the 90-days window, a few days ago. It was received on Monday by a CIS officer at the California Service Center (where the Wisconsin I-751 applications are meant to go to).

So far so good.

Today I received a strange letter from USCIS, from the Nebraska Service Center which I found odd as I had been expecting an NOA from CSV. However, this was nothing to do with my I-751 form but the following thing happened.

Apparently, DHS/USCIS (from 850 S St PO Box 87751, Lincoln NE 68501-7751) wrote to me to inform me that:

"The records of the Service indicate that you entered the US as a conditional permanent resident on [DATE]. In accordance with Section 216 of the Immigration and Nationality Act you must file Form I-751, Petition to Remove Conditions on Residence. Failure to do so may result in the automatic termination of your Status. You can obtain From I-751 ....[etc etc]".

So it was kind of nice of them that they now INFORM immigrants with conditional cards about 90 days before the expiration of their conditional green card that they need to file I-751 within said window. However, this was not sent to us in Wisconsin but to our old address in Missouri! The post office that has been redirecting our post all along, saw it, presumably contacted CIS, so what I received in the end was the above letter from CIS from Nebraska (with a redirection notice from the post office) together with an additional note from Nebraska Center saying:

"We received notification that your address has changed. If this is incorrect please contact the Service Center immediately. If your address has changed you must also complete an AR-11 Change of Address form and mail it to the following address in order for us to completely process your address change: [London, KY address follows]

Every person over the age of 14 who is not a citizen of the US or in diplomatic status must complete a Form AR-11 within 10 days of an address change. An AR-11 form has been provided on the reverse of this letter for your convenience. Where possible please provide an A-number (from your alien card) or other identifying numbers. You must complete the Form AR-11 and mail it to the above London, KY address. Failure to complete all applicabler sections may delay processing of the form. Please disregard this notice if you have submitted an AR-11 form to DHS/USCIS within the last two weeks to the address listed above.

You may obtain additional copies of the AR-11 form from...[etc]"

Of course they sent this not realizing I had already done this a year ago when we moved to Wisconsin; it was they who were in error.

I called Customer Service phone number and was told that it happens sometimes that the CIS sends the info by mistake to the old address and I should make an infopass appointment to speak with an immigration information officer as soon as possible so that the record of the address is properly registered with CIS. He also told me that there is nothing to worry with regards the I-751 form that was sent as regards awaiting an NOA from them, but I should speak with an officer as soon as I can about the issue of the address.

Well, I did make an appointment for me and my wife (it would be good for her to come too) at our local center for next Wednesday (it is a couple of hours drive), which is the earliest we can make it. I will bring these letters I received, all the evidence that AR-11 and I-865 were sent on time and who received them as well as the NOA for the I-865 we got back plus of course the INFOPASS receipt (and ID for both of us) including a copy of the I-751 package signature confirmation when it arrived in California.

Beyond this, is there anything else I should bring with me?

Also, is there anything else I should perhaps do? Is it possible e.g. to contact the Nebraska Service Center and let them know directly before Wednesday about this issue or should I just wait to speak to an officer on Wednesday? And if I should contact the Nebraska Center what are their phone numbers? Who should I speak with?

Anyway, does anyone have any ideas if I should do anything else in the meantime or should I just wait until we go to our local service center on Wednesday?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions and help!

Real Pi

(P.S. Note: In case someone is confused why I received this info from Nebraska Service Center, the reason is that if they think we still live in Missouri, they are responsible for our I-751 forms and not California Service Center (where we of course sent it correctly to since the I-751 apps from Wisconsin go to CSV instead).

Oh dear... Guess what?

That Notice I was talking about? It came to OUR old address too although we did EXACTLY the same thing as you did when we moved! Hubby even got the confirmation from Nebraska at our new address that he filed (Sponsor's change of address), and I printed the online thingy for myself. The only reason we found that notice is - my husband went to visit his mom (that is where we lived) and she said she had a letter for me! And a year ago, they did the same thing, but this time with my new Green Card! And I called USCIS and changed the address over the phone as well!

To be honest, I do not think that the change of address makes any difference. They go by the address they have on file, meaning if you sent AOS with certain address, they will use that address no matter what, till Doomsday prehaps. It would be better to change the address with USPS (after filing AR-11), and then they will forward your mail to your new address.

Now, I do not know if we received the second notice "We received notification that your address has changed." I guess it is time to visit my mother-in-law again.

Man, I cannot go to Kansas City all the time and have Infopass for every mistake they make! We will be broke!

[LA80 3]

I forgot to add. When we called USCIS to change the address, we had the pending case (I-90). The new GC came to the old address.

I admit that we never changed the address with the postal service, but we thought that AR-11 and Sponsor's change of address form would be enough for USCIS as well as calling them.

[Brian&Mel 0]

When we moved, we filed the AR-11 online and didnt send it to anywhere. One would assume that when you filled up and confirmed something online, you do not have to do anything else.

We received the NOA for our I-865 at our new address. I just hope that everything will come to our new address. Its a good thing that each time we send something, we will pay extra for the mail confirmation service. In that way, they cant really say we didnt send the docs in a timely manner.

I thought the post office will only forward mails to the new address up to certain period only (if i am not mistaken, up to a year) and after that all mail will be returned to the sender.

I just wish each department has a standard operating procedure which we can just follow and not do things as they wished.

[RealPi 0]

Oh dear... Guess what?

...

Man, I cannot go to Kansas City all the time and have Infopass for every mistake they make! We will be broke!

We are a two drive away, it's kind of inconvenient too. However, let me make it clear that we did NOT change the address over the phone, the officer simply told us to go to our local service center. But I agree with you, I think that the NOA from California (where our I-751 went to) will end up at our new address; especially since the I-751 form explicitly asks for the new address and wants all records to date mentioned in an additional sheet (part of the form).

Anyway, the officer was certainly not surprised to hear my story and said these things happen sometimes... Which I can understand. I think I won't call them again before Wednesday not to confuse matters more, and just turn up and if we have to we can fill a new AR-11 there and then (I will of course bring one with me ready and all, just in case).

[RealPi 0]

One would assume that when you filled up and confirmed something online, you do not have to do anything else.

...

I thought the post office will only forward mails to the new address up to certain period only (if i am not mistaken, up to a year) and after that all mail will be returned to the sender.

...

How you file AR-11 is not important, although they appear to prefer online. What you say that all you have to do is send the AR-11 (and of course the I-865) is enough only if you also have NO pending case with CIS at the time. If you do then you ALSO HAVE to call the 1-800 National Customer Service number for CIS to INFORM them of the change of address AS WELL as sending the AR-11 (and I-865). It is mentioned in the directions from CIS. In general, I would always recommend after sending an AR-11 to also call up to tell them. Make a note who you spoke with, time and date etc. so that no one can say you did not do your best. What I'd like to know though is this:

Are we supposed to get an NOA for an AR-11? Or not? 'cause we got one for the I-865 although not for the AR-11. Is this because they don't give out NOA's for AR-11's or is it because they forgot to add the address and thus never acknowledged it?

This is something I'm not sure about; did you (or anyone else reading this) get an NOA from an AR-11? It'd be nice to know 'cause in a year or two we might move again.

As regards your comment on the postal redirection service. You are correct in that normally the post office will only forward post up to a year which in our case has gone by a bit now. However, good post offices appear to keep a record of your new address for longer and if the government attempts to send you some information they intercept it and inform the government (like they did in my case). I think this is a great idea, as it reduces the chance for all sorts of fraud. I suppose this might depend on the post office as well. I've seen excellent post offices and some real terrible ones, right around the corner as well (once, in one of those horror post offices neaerby -- not the one that redirects our mail -- a new parcel containing a new credit card had been sitting at their desk for a week because they forgot to inform us that it had arrived...)

Still, one thing I am very happy we did is that we set up a redirection of post. I recall some time in February we were trying to get our 1099 from an old bank in St Louis and even though we had given them our new address, guess where the 1099 ended up at... Luckily, the post office redirected it to us and it never ended up in our old apartment complex for some curious guy to open it up and read all our sensitive tax info, including SSN's.

[floridagirl 0]

I think it happens quit often that the reminder notice is sent to the very first address you put in the US. Mine arrived at my parents in law house as well even though I did the change of address right after we got here. However, when i filed for my ROC everything arrived at the right address here in Florida

And I don't think you get a NOA for the AR-11, at least I never did and we moved twice already...

[v333k 59]

This is very normal for USCIS to send the notice to the old address.

You can ignore it and file your I-751 with the new address showing. As long as you did your part of changing address, and as long as you can show that you did that, there is nothing to worry or stress about. Many people, including me, got the notice at the old address and have gone through ROC without any problems.

[RealPi 0]

This is very normal for USCIS to send the notice to the old address.

You can ignore it and file your I-751 with the new address showing. As long as you did your part of changing address, and as long as you can show that you did that, there is nothing to worry or stress about. Many people, including me, got the notice at the old address and have gone through ROC without any problems.

V33k, you are very correct in what you wrote (so is floridagirl) and I thank you both.

I just want to add that the NOA did arrive from California on Saturday (yesterday).

However, having an ROC arrive at an old address and receiving not only the ROC (that had been redirected back to Vermont I presume) plus a request to check the AR-11 status (because they didn't have a record of your address change), is something that is definitely worth checking out. It is very possible that only certain departments/centers of CIS do not have a full record, unless they have equal access to everything electronically (which I very seriously doubt). One way or another, when I called up the 1-800 national CIS number to speak to an officer, I was told to make an INFOPASS appointment as soon as possible to ensure that the CIS has a properly registered record of our new address. I just thought I would point this out because I was explicitly told to do so.

Anyway, I will ask all sorts of questions I have on Wednesday and any interesting feedback I get I will post it back here so everyone can share . Thanks for the input guys!

[LA80 3]

V33k, you are very correct in what you wrote (so is floridagirl) and I thank you both.

I just want to add that the NOA did arrive from California on Saturday (yesterday).

However, having an ROC arrive at an old address and receiving not only the ROC (that had been redirected back to Vermont I presume) plus a request to check the AR-11 status (because they didn't have a record of your address change), is something that is definitely worth checking out. It is very possible that only certain departments/centers of CIS do not have a full record, unless they have equal access to everything electronically (which I very seriously doubt). One way or another, when I called up the 1-800 national CIS number to speak to an officer, I was told to make an INFOPASS appointment as soon as possible to ensure that the CIS has a properly registered record of our new address. I just thought I would point this out because I was explicitly told to do so.

Anyway, I will ask all sorts of questions I have on Wednesday and any interesting feedback I get I will post it back here so everyone can share . Thanks for the input guys!

Do not worry. There were so many people complaining about this issue. The only new thing about your case is that they reminded you to change the address. At least, that is the first time I have heard about it. And as V33k said, as long as you did your part, it's all ok.

From what I understood, they sent you the ROC notice although you had already filed I-751? If that is true, that only shows that the Centers are not that connected. The message itself may have been automatically generated based on the data when and how you entered. The second message is probably automatic as well. Personally, I changed the address online and have the confirmation number. I can print the form again from USCIS site, but that's it. Husband has his NOA for I-865 where it says : "The office has received the notice for sponsor address change. Your address(es) has been updated with the following." And then there is our new address. The NOA came from Nebraska.

Another possibility...They have registered address for the sponsor, but they do not have registered address for the immigrant. They do not send NOA for AR-11 after all, and that probably indicates what causes this problem quite often. If they sent you a receipt, then the change would be registered in a proper way. But there are no receipts. My ROC notice was addressed only on me, so that explains why it came to the old address. They do not have the change in their records because the online system and records are (probably) not connected. This is only me speculating. Of course it is a good idea to have an Infopass appointment and see where is the problem.

Please, do share what you find out.

Edited August 15, 2010 by LA80

[Darnell 8,478]

Beyond this, is there anything else I should bring with me?

If you are completely protaginistic about this, as I would be (in the same situation),

then suggest you contact the Ombudsman's office with an official complaint.

The 'scope' here deals with 'real time data access' and 'real time data updates'

with 'updates' not being 'pushed' properly into the 'receiving' databases.

If you want some fodder on this, if you actually wish to pursue a case with the Ombudsman's office,

let me know - Happy to point out the disparate data sources that are NEVER updated properly.

----

For now, though, 'getting it right' via the INFOPASS appointment 'seems to be the right approach'

but even with that? I'd suggest to you that you bring 'sign-off letters' with you, each letter with a SASE (addressed back to you) - about 5 sets, and give them to the IO at the infopass appointment. Sure, he'll be confused about it - but do tell him - HEY ! Everyone that touches my address in yer system - I WANT THEM TO SIGN OFF that they did an eye-ball review, and corrected the address, and mail me a postal confirmation that they fixed it'

Sure, it's going overboard, but ya know what? It's HER casefile, so it's up to YOU to do something, yes?

Good Luck !

[RealPi 0]

From what I understood, they sent you the ROC notice although you had already filed I-751? If that is true, that only shows that the Centers are not that connected. The message itself may have been automatically generated based on the data when and how you entered. The second message is probably automatic as well.

Please, do share what you find out.

You are correct. However here is what happened in some detail. I sent the I-751 package on Aug 5. It arrived on Saturday where it waited at the local post office in Laguna Niguel, CA (most likely the Laguna Beach post office). It was picked up some time on Monday morning and signed for, before mid-day. The NOA has Monday's date on it (Aug 9) and I noticed the check cleared on Wed 11, which means they did everything on Monday: checked the basic parts of the package were OK (I-751 form with the possible addenda, check, green card front/back copies) and then they sent out the NOA the same day. (I know they do not check the extra evidence immediately, beyond what I mentioned, because as you know the NOA says that if you have not already submitted necessary evidence documentation you should do so now, giving you some idea, and don't forget by the way to add now also the NOA's receipt number since you are now having a case with us etc etc - basically for those people who never bothered to read the instructions ). Anyway, so they picked it up on Monday and dealt with everything on Monday at CSV. Now, the Vermont letter arrived a few days later but here is what happened precisely:

Originally, the VSC sent an automatic ROC to the OLD address in St Louis and the date is Aug 3. That letter has a postal service redirection date of Aug 4; when it was MEANT to go to us but was intercepted and sent back to them. Finally, what I received was: a) this ROC (originally sent on Aug 3 and redirected to VSC on Aug 4) inside its own envelope PLUS b) the aforementioned 'AR-11 reminder' note from VSC. Both a) and b) were included in a NEW letter that was sent DIRECTLY from VSC to us in Wisconsin (no redirection this time). In other words, they realized that we had changed address, made a note of the actual address and sent both the original ROC that had been returned to them PLUS the 'AR-11 reminder' letter AT THE SAME TIME in the SAME letter; I repeat this time DIRECTLY from VSC to us. I am sure some human being is involved in the second part of the process, but definitely these forms are clearly 'standard'. Overall it is quite impressive, except for the fact that they had no record of the updated address

Anyway, the answer is that it is still inconclusive if the departments are 'disconnected' in this sense or not.

Also I believe this way I clear out exactly what we received because it appears there was some confusion and you guys thought I received two separate notes at different times; I received one with both together in the sense described above.

I will try and ask what I can on Wednesday. Thanks again for the input

[milimelo 4,481]

It is all disconnected - same thing with ROC - I used work address as we receive mail twice a day and I wasn't about to wait for the mailman at my home address -received mail saying to do AR-11 even though I put a note on ROC and afterwards N400 saying here's my address, this is my work address I want mail at the work address as it's more reliable, we haven't moved!

[RealPi 0]

Please, do share what you find out.

First, I am sorry for the delay in getting back to you guys. Thursday was super-busy so I could not log on.

Anyway, essentially there is nothing new and we were all on the right track. However I confirmed some interesting things.

So, the officer understood the situation and explained to me that what happened was that VSC still had the last address only because their records were still up to the time of the I-485 app which had taken place in St. Louis. In other words, from what I understand if your next 'case' with CIS is 'far into the future' this can happen with some departments; and it also confirms that there is a 'discontinuity' of sorts between the departments, which I suspect is also for reasons of security.

However, the IO was able to track all my addresses recorded at all centers. It turns out VSC was the only culprit and interestingly enough the most important of all departments for addresses (namely the London, KY that receives them in the first place) had received it and displayed it correctly. In short, this was a specific boo-boo of VSC. They put that 'if you haven't sent an AR-11 send it to London, KY' letter clearly without checking with London, KY. It is an automated thing.

The IO also confirmed that the only one that matters right now is CSV (for me), for the I-751 and asked if we already got our NOA for that and we said yes; so she said it was OK.

Finally, a very interesting thing: the IO said not only is there no need to examine what address the other departments have right now but it is probably not a good idea to try to change anything with VSC (I think she was talking about updating systems) because this was a one-off thing they do, basically, and we won't hear from them again. She said there is no way that e.g. they are going to be waiting for a week or so and not seeing us e.g. try to send an AR-11 to London, KY write back or something. Of course, the IO is definitely right and we know this from the simple fact that if VSC wanted to know in detail they would simply contact London, KY which DID and DOES have our correct updated address.

Like with many government departments around the globe, red tape takes precedence over common sense. Furthermore, trying to upset the Balance of the Red Tape (imagine if the IO had attempted to alter the VSC records or even worse if we had attempted to send an AR-11 to London, KY without consulting CIS what sort of chaos would ensue) is certain recipe for causing chaos, anarchy and utter destruction in our Universe

On a slightly more serious side, the IO did say that in such situations we can also write to them by snail mail if we wish to avoid doing the trip (for those of us who don't live around the corner from their local CIS office).

So the upshot is: So long as the current Center that is dealing with your case has your proper address details and so long as London, KY has your proper details, it does not matter if the others do or do not. The former covers you for your case and the latter covers your behind since if anyone does not have your updated details it is because they did not update their system from London, KY and not because you failed to give it to London, KY.

The moral of the story: after you have moved and sent out your AR-11, write a letter to your local CIS office (if it is far away) or make an INFOPASS appointment with them (if it is not too much of a hassle to drive there) and find out if London, KY received your new details. They can and do check it on their systems. While you are there you can also ask (or write) about the other departments' status in order to avoid a situation such as ours, but when all is said and done I think there is still a chance for error in that respect.

Any comments, I will be glad to answer but from Monday as I'm still running around like a headless chicken. On a different note (but more related to this Forum) I will also post some ideas on how to organize the I-751 evidence material together based on how we did it, as I think some people will find it useful.