Responsibility of Alcohol users

[SMR 368]

my thread wasn't about alcohol. it was a question of what people drink when they celebrate. some people said water, diet coke, coffee. you all turned it into an alcohol debate. that's why I asked for it to be locked.

I understand that and my original response had nothing to do with alcohol. I realize it morphed into something that you didn't expect or want. But I think it kind of childish for you to go and have the thread locked over that. After all, there was a conversation going on. Just because you made the original post doesn't give you ultimate control over the thread and what happens in it.

Morality is not something one adheres to merely because one is sober, what kind of morality is it if drinking renders you free to say you 'feel like' doing immoral things? If you have the desire to do things that are immoral when you drink you have a problem., that doesn't make me special, it makes you incapable of following your own rules unless certain conditions are in place - that is not a morality I recognize.. If murder is wrong, it's wrong, drunk or sober. If rape is wrong, it's wrong drunk or sober, and moreover drunk people are capable of knowing that it is wrong. Because someone takes their clothes off when drunk, that does not make them immoral - it makes them someone who embraces nudity, likes nudity, wants nutidy to be more acceptable despite common convention and they would in all likelihood think nothing of going to a nudist beach. There are examples of 'unusual' behaviour when drunk and then there are people who use drinking as an excuse for lax morality. I can understand the former but not the latter.

Morality is something that one adheres to when her or she choses, regardless of the amount of alcohol in the veins. That's the point; it's always about a choice. Thus, one is always responsible for his or her choices. But in regards to making a choice, having unimpaired judgment allows you to make better choices. While there may be some who make immoral choices while sober, most people are likely to make good choices while sober considering they have good judgment.

[mawilson 2,133]

Men only buy women drinks to show them how much they respect them and to recognize the inequality of women's pay in general.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Considering the alcohol celebration thread was locked due to OP request and not TOS violation, the TOS does not prohibit re-opening it.

I don't know where you get that this is a Christian perspective allegedly. I'd be interested to see a source on that one.

In any case, for most people, morality is not a simple set of laws that they follow just because. Morality is an understanding of the fact that your actions have consequences for you and others and that those consequences should be considered. Whether or not you believe some of those consequences extend into the next life is another dimension but doesn't really change the underlying principle.

You may be special, but I can speak for myself and probably most of the other people here that occasionally people have the desire to do things that would be considered immoral. They usually don't do them because they consider the effects of their actions to themselves and others. Alcohol can inhibit a person's ability to consider these effects.

Of course, if morality to you is an arbitrary set of rules with no real sensible justification and you never have an urge to violate said set of rules, drink away. But in reality, alcohol can increase immoral behavior (notice, I didn't say it absolves anyone and neither did anyone else. I realize I'm starting to sound like a broken record constantly repeating that I don't believe alcohol absolves anyone from responsibility for their actions, but you haven't yet realized what I am saying.)

I searched my soul and found no morals in there...whatsoever. I dont drink because it tastes terrible and I don't need to poison myself more than balancing act I already have between Simvastatin and cholesterol. I try not to OD on either.

However, the person drinking is responsible for their actions just as they are at any other time. If you cannot drink AND be responsible, then you shouldn't choose to drink.

[Peikko 1,575]

I understand that and my original response had nothing to do with alcohol. I realize it morphed into something that you didn't expect or want. But I think it kind of childish for you to go and have the thread locked over that. After all, there was a conversation going on. Just because you made the original post doesn't give you ultimate control over the thread and what happens in it.

Morality is something that one adheres to when her or she choses, regardless of the amount of alcohol in the veins. That's the point; it's always about a choice. Thus, one is always responsible for his or her choices. But in regards to making a choice, having unimpaired judgment allows you to make better choices. While there may be some who make immoral choices while sober, most people are likely to make good choices while sober considering they have good judgment.

Morality isn't an 'in the moment' choice. Morality is a value system that you adhere to regardless of anything that happens 'in the moment', the judgement has been made by the choice to adhere to the value system come what may because you know what the moral choice is, drunk or sober. My guess is that some people do immoral things when drunk because they don't really have a coherent moral value system, however, I don't know, but what I do know is that if you have a coherent moral value system being drunk doesn't make it disappear - in fact in my experience it can have the opposite effect and those with strong moral values can become more beligerant about these moral values when drunk.

However, drunk people can become 'anti-social' for example it is quite common for drunk people to turn up their sound systems to full volume regardless of the consequences. Playing loud music if it disturbs your neighbours isn't unethical or immoral but it is thoughtless and does have an impact on your social environment which is not something easily ignored when sober. It should be noted however that the majority of drunk people when confronted by an irate neighbour disturbed by loud music quickly recognize their behaviour as unacceptalbe and modify it. Those who do not do so are probably the sort of people that resent having to 'conform' to social norms and resent having to keep their music at a volume that does not disturb others and being drunk merely excerbates the feelings of resentment they harbour at having to keep things under control. Such people do not have a coherent value system because they are unable to appreciate that the social environment is a two way street.

None of this makes a virtue of drinking. I have no axe to grind in that regard, if you don't like it, don't think it's healthy or have any other rational reason for not drinking alcohol to celebrate or simply because, by all means don't do it. However, I very much object to the notion that alcohol renders people incapable of maintaining moral values. That is rubbish.

[SMR 368]

Morality isn't an 'in the moment' choice. Morality is a value system that you adhere to regardless of anything that happens 'in the moment', the judgement has been made by the choice to adhere to the value system come what may because you know what the moral choice is, drunk or sober. My guess is that some people do immoral things when drunk because they don't really have a coherent moral value system, however, I don't know, but what I do know is that if you have a coherent moral value system being drunk doesn't make it disappear - in fact in my experience it can have the opposite effect and those with strong moral values can become more beligerant about these moral values when drunk.

However, drunk people can become 'anti-social' for example it is quite common for drunk people to turn up their sound systems to full volume regardless of the consequences. Playing loud music if it disturbs your neighbours isn't unethical or immoral but it is thoughtless and does have an impact on your social environment which is not something easily ignored when sober. It should be noted however that the majority of drunk people when confronted by an irate neighbour disturbed by loud music quickly recognize their behaviour as unacceptalbe and modify it. Those who do not do so are probably the sort of people that resent having to 'conform' to social norms and resent having to keep their music at a volume that does not disturb others and being drunk merely excerbates the feelings of resentment they harbour at having to keep things under control. Such people do not have a coherent value system because they are unable to appreciate that the social environment is a two way street.

None of this makes a virtue of drinking. I have no axe to grind in that regard, if you don't like it, don't think it's healthy or have any other rational reason for not drinking alcohol to celebrate or simply because, by all means don't do it. However, I very much object to the notion that alcohol renders people incapable of maintaining moral values. That is rubbish.

Not incapable, of course. Just impaired.

[slim 1,514]

what I do know is that if you have a coherent moral value system being drunk doesn't make it disappear

That is incorrect.

When you're drunk, you have no control over your "thinking brain" and resort to your "primitive brain." Inside all of us is a tiger just dying to get out. But, we've been trained to use our moral compass and "suppress" this beast and be an upright citizen who is highly moral and acts nicely at all times.

Alcohol stops that suppression from happening. In fact, that's the only thing it really does. It doesn't give us ideas or make us feel like we can be invinceable, it simply removes that little angel on our shoulders that says, "Dude, you're not invinceable. Don't try that." The little devil is always there, it's just that the angel usually has him in a headlock. Alcohol loosens the angel's grasp.

[sachinky 464]

I do stupid things when I'm drunk. I'm a much more 'fun person' when I'm drunk. I'm irresponsible, less inhibited. I'm less uptight and less in control and a hoot in general to be around (according to other people, not me. I mostly remember the dancing, the loud singing, my head eventually in the toilet, throwing up and then subsequently passing out). However, I take full responsibility for my idiotic actions the 'morning-after' instead of blaming it on the alcohol. (FYI: the 'walk of shame' is a truly a long walk).

I did, after all, marry my husband two years after I made out with him in a drunken stupor at a college party. Like I said, I take responsibility for my actions.

My favorite drunk friend is the girl friend who will insist on taking a shower with all her clothes on. Everytime. It's almost like a ritual now.

My drunk belligerent, vicious friend is no longer invited to my house-parties.

Edited August 13, 2010 by sachinky

[Peikko 1,575]

That is incorrect.

When you're drunk, you have no control over your "thinking brain" and resort to your "primitive brain." Inside all of us is a tiger just dying to get out. But, we've been trained to use our moral compass and "suppress" this beast and be an upright citizen who is highly moral and acts nicely at all times.

Alcohol stops that suppression from happening. In fact, that's the only thing it really does. It doesn't give us ideas or make us feel like we can be invinceable, it simply removes that little angel on our shoulders that says, "Dude, you're not invinceable. Don't try that." The little devil is always there, it's just that the angel usually has him in a headlock. Alcohol loosens the angel's grasp.

If you honestly believe what you have just written you should never drink because clearly you lose control of yourself when you drink and could cheerfully rape, pillage and murder if your 'little devil' suggested it and only when you became sober again would your 'little angel' tell you how naughty you had been. Ridiculous.

I do stupid things when I'm drunk. I'm a much more 'fun person' when I'm drunk. I'm irresponsible, less inhibited. I'm less uptight and less in control and a hoot in general to be around (according to other people, not me. I mostly remember the dancing, the loud singing, my head eventually in the toilet, throwing up and then subsequently passing out). However, I take full responsibility for my idiotic actions the 'morning-after' instead of blaming it on the alcohol. (FYI: the 'walk of shame' is a truly a long walk).

I did, after all, marry my husband two years after I made out with him in a drunken stupor at a college party. Like I said, I take responsibility for my actions.

My favorite drunk friend is the girl friend who will insist on taking a shower with all her clothes on. Everytime. It's almost like a ritual now.

My drunk belligerent, vicious friend is no longer invited to my house-parties.

Doing stupid things is a long way short of doing immoral things.

[SMR 368]

If you honestly believe what you have just written you should never drink because clearly you lose control of yourself when you drink and could cheerfully rape, pillage and murder if your 'little devil' suggested it and only when you became sober again would your 'little angel' tell you how naughty you had been. Ridiculous.

Doing stupid things is a long way short of doing immoral things.

It's true we've been talking about morality. But that aside, what's so glorious about doing stupid things? Isn't the fact that drunk people do stupid things enough?

Moreover, morality isn't necessarily limited to things like murder, rape, or stealing. Members of a society have a moral obligation to maintain peace, quiet, and cleanliness and not unnecessarily inconvenience other members of that society. Peeing in the street, stripping naked in public, playing ridiculously loud music late at night, or even taking actions that cause you to pass out in public could be considered immoral.

[Peikko 1,575]

It's true we've been talking about morality. But that aside, what's so glorious about doing stupid things? Isn't the fact that drunk people do stupid things enough?

Moreover, morality isn't necessarily limited to things like murder, rape, or stealing. Members of a society have a moral obligation to maintain peace, quiet, and cleanliness and not unnecessarily inconvenience other members of that society. Peeing in the street, stripping naked in public, playing ridiculously loud music late at night, or even taking actions that cause you to pass out in public could be considered immoral.

Who said doing stupid things was 'glorious'? My argument has been only that drinking doesn't make you do these things and religious groups that ban alcohol because they believe alcohol is responsible for people's immorality and sin are silly and looking at problems from the wrong end. Yes, being anti-social isn't a good thing, but acting irresponsibly once in a while isn't the act of someone who is immoral, if those irresponsible acts range from being thoughtless while playing music at night to peeing in publc. They are not sins by any stretch of the imagination, even if some people do find nudity offensive.

[SMR 368]

Who said doing stupid things was 'glorious'? My argument has been only that drinking doesn't make you do these things and religious groups that ban alcohol because they believe alcohol is responsible for people's immorality and sin are silly and looking at problems from the wrong end. Yes, being anti-social isn't a good thing, but acting irresponsibly once in a while isn't the act of someone who is immoral, if those irresponsible acts range from being thoughtless while playing music at night to peeing in publc. They are not sins by any stretch of the imagination, even if some people do find nudity offensive.

Alcohol doesn't make you rape people. It can make you lose control of your body and bodily functions in public. Losing control of yourself in public can place others in danger and can place undue burdens on others who may feel an obligation to insure that you are okay.

For at least the 4th time you have now asserted that religious groups that ban alcohol believe alcohol is responsible for people's immorality. I demand a citation. This is a ridiculous claim that nobody is supporting that you keep presenting as a straw man.

Not drinking alcohol is like wearing a seat belt. Sure, it's not the not wearing a seat belt that kills you. It's the accident that kills you. But I still recommend wearing a seat belt. Similarly, the alcohol doesn't make you do it. But not drinking the alcohol could prevent bad things from happening. It doesn't have to be about assigning fault. Sometimes you do things because the results are more likely to be positive (regardless of whose fault it is).

[Peikko 1,575]

Alcohol doesn't make you rape people. It can make you lose control of your body and bodily functions in public. Losing control of yourself in public can place others in danger and can place undue burdens on others who may feel an obligation to insure that you are okay.

For at least the 4th time you have now asserted that religious groups that ban alcohol believe alcohol is responsible for people's immorality. I demand a citation. This is a ridiculous claim that nobody is supporting that you keep presenting as a straw man.

Not drinking alcohol is like wearing a seat belt. Sure, it's not the not wearing a seat belt that kills you. It's the accident that kills you. But I still recommend wearing a seat belt. Similarly, the alcohol doesn't make you do it. But not drinking the alcohol could prevent bad things from happening. It doesn't have to be about assigning fault. Sometimes you do things because the results are more likely to be positive (regardless of whose fault it is).

Drinking is like driving without a seatbelt? Alrighty then. Can I assume that you do not ever drink alcohol?

Oh, and demand away for your 'citation'. I was responding to a 'citation', but perhaps you missed it

[Atencio 43]

Morality isn't an 'in the moment' choice. Morality is a value system that you adhere to regardless of anything that happens 'in the moment', the judgement has been made by the choice to adhere to the value system come what may because you know what the moral choice is, drunk or sober.

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