Responsibility of Alcohol users

[SMR 368]

Considering the alcohol celebration thread was locked due to OP request and not TOS violation, the TOS does not prohibit re-opening it.

Impaired judgment is not impaired morality, it's the ability to make a depth perception judgment, by the way of an example. Why do people get confused on this issue of judgment?

If you believe that a normally moral person is capable of immorality simply by virtue of being drunk, you are taking away their personal responsibility for that action and placing it on the drink - which is a christian perspective allegedly.

I don't know where you get that this is a Christian perspective allegedly. I'd be interested to see a source on that one.

In any case, for most people, morality is not a simple set of laws that they follow just because. Morality is an understanding of the fact that your actions have consequences for you and others and that those consequences should be considered. Whether or not you believe some of those consequences extend into the next life is another dimension but doesn't really change the underlying principle.

You may be special, but I can speak for myself and probably most of the other people here that occasionally people have the desire to do things that would be considered immoral. They usually don't do them because they consider the effects of their actions to themselves and others. Alcohol can inhibit a person's ability to consider these effects.

Of course, if morality to you is an arbitrary set of rules with no real sensible justification and you never have an urge to violate said set of rules, drink away. But in reality, alcohol can increase immoral behavior (notice, I didn't say it absolves anyone and neither did anyone else. I realize I'm starting to sound like a broken record constantly repeating that I don't believe alcohol absolves anyone from responsibility for their actions, but you haven't yet realized what I am saying.)

[Captain Oates 910]

An alcoholic is someone I don't like who drinks as much as me (quote)

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I think the social compact prevents people from going too far out of their character when drunk.

For things that aren't catastrophically against your sensibilities but which you know to be wrong and wouldn't ordinarily do - being drunk tends to make people not care about those things.

[Captain Oates 910]

Slight divergence into rape as it was mentioned:

Remember in the film 'as good as it gets' when the young flash city slicker wants to go home and have it off with the waitress ?

Some women would describe that as rape - really they would - he had no intention of 'paying' by settling down with her and making her financially secure - so she would feel cheated.

However, as soon as the 'nice' man pays her kids doctor's bills, he is in there like a rat up a drain pipe. He is a 'wonderful man'

Rape comes in a wide spectrum from genuine and bad to 'that's 'ridiculous' and the first description is devalued by the latter

I am sure date rape exists but for every genuine one I bet there is at least x number that are just sour grapes when he doesn't call again.

I know of women who will sleep with a bloke to 'get back at' some other woman and then drop him in the middle of a bad situation - but that has NEVER been described as rape when it is at least as bad as some that are reported...

Every rape is different and should be treated as such - and widening the definition to include lots of women's lib issues (and many women's libbers will never encounter the problem) is against the interests of the women who are genuinely harmed

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Well - in Essex there is a pretty big nightclub scene. It's one of the reasons why this area has a lot of alcohol fuelled crime. You see a lot of this kind of thing.

[Captain Oates 910]

Men only buy women drinks to show them how much they respect them and to recognize the inequality of women's pay in general.

Edited August 12, 2010 by saywhat

[Amby 490]

my thread wasn't about alcohol. it was a question of what people drink when they celebrate. some people said water, diet coke, coffee. you all turned it into an alcohol debate. that's why I asked for it to be locked.

[Captain Oates 910]

my thread wasn't about alcohol. it was a question of what people drink when they celebrate. some people said water, diet coke, coffee. you all turned it into an alcohol debate. that's why I asked for it to be locked.

Well now you know..

A visit to a pub would confirm the posts I am sure

[Peikko 1,575]

Considering the alcohol celebration thread was locked due to OP request and not TOS violation, the TOS does not prohibit re-opening it.

I don't know where you get that this is a Christian perspective allegedly. I'd be interested to see a source on that one.

In any case, for most people, morality is not a simple set of laws that they follow just because. Morality is an understanding of the fact that your actions have consequences for you and others and that those consequences should be considered. Whether or not you believe some of those consequences extend into the next life is another dimension but doesn't really change the underlying principle.

You may be special, but I can speak for myself and probably most of the other people here that occasionally people have the desire to do things that would be considered immoral. They usually don't do them because they consider the effects of their actions to themselves and others. Alcohol can inhibit a person's ability to consider these effects.

Of course, if morality to you is an arbitrary set of rules with no real sensible justification and you never have an urge to violate said set of rules, drink away. But in reality, alcohol can increase immoral behavior (notice, I didn't say it absolves anyone and neither did anyone else. I realize I'm starting to sound like a broken record constantly repeating that I don't believe alcohol absolves anyone from responsibility for their actions, but you haven't yet realized what I am saying.)

Morality is not something one adheres to merely because one is sober, what kind of morality is it if drinking renders you free to say you 'feel like' doing immoral things? If you have the desire to do things that are immoral when you drink you have a problem., that doesn't make me special, it makes you incapable of following your own rules unless certain conditions are in place - that is not a morality I recognize.. If murder is wrong, it's wrong, drunk or sober. If rape is wrong, it's wrong drunk or sober, and moreover drunk people are capable of knowing that it is wrong. Because someone takes their clothes off when drunk, that does not make them immoral - it makes them someone who embraces nudity, likes nudity, wants nutidy to be more acceptable despite common convention and they would in all likelihood think nothing of going to a nudist beach. There are examples of 'unusual' behaviour when drunk and then there are people who use drinking as an excuse for lax morality. I can understand the former but not the latter.

[Peikko 1,575]

my thread wasn't about alcohol. it was a question of what people drink when they celebrate. some people said water, diet coke, coffee. you all turned it into an alcohol debate. that's why I asked for it to be locked.

I accept responsibility for this. I was somewhat surprised by Gary, the person who apparently makes no judgments on other people with his declaration that those who drink alcohol are idiots and the only sensible celebratory drink is diet coke. Please, diet coke is full of #######.

In answer to your question, I'm a fan of bubbles. Champagne, yay!

[Captain Oates 910]

Banning alcohol would certainly reduce the population ..

I went to a disco in Munich and one of the guys I was with was a 26 year and he got off with a 50 year old Heidi from Berlin. He was in love and he was really sozzled too.

We came out at 3am and he got his first proper look under the sodium street lights

He ran away and slept in a bush in the median and came back at 9am.

He had even forgotten he was gay

Edited August 12, 2010 by saywhat

[Ban Hammer 12,915]

Men only buy women drinks to show them how much they respect them and to recognize the inequality of women's pay in general.

but of course!

[Peikko 1,575]

Banning alcohol would certainly reduce the population ..

I went to a disco in Munich and one of the guys I was with was a 26 year and he got off with a 50 year old Heidi from Berlin. He was in love and he was really sozzled too.

We came out at 3am and he got his first proper look under the sodium street lights

He ran away and slept in a bush in the median and came back at 9am.

He had even forgotten he was gay

Because being gay is something you can forget. You are such a wimp you cant even cope if I call you a wanker because that would be against the tos, but you can be an ignorant bigot and that is ok because you are simply promulgating controversial views. Brilliant.

[Doris_G 4]

There are examples of 'unusual' behaviour when drunk and then there are people who use drinking as an excuse for lax morality. I can understand the former but not the latter.

I hear you. It is a difficult concept to understand unless you've "been there", I think.

From personal experience, "unusual behavior" came about not from using alcohol as an excuse, but because it enabled the mind to carry two seemingly oppositional thoughts at once. "What I'm about to do is unethical, but I don't care right now." It's the "I don't care" thought process that I think stumps others who haven't experienced it.

And then of course there is the phenomenon of being black-out drunk; again, hard to imagine unless you've experienced it. In those times, you really have no notion of right/wrong, because you aren't fully present in the moment. Many people will physically pass out when they drink huge amounts, but others can remain mobile (and hence get into lots of trouble).

I make a point here to differentiate unethical behavior -- that is, behavior that demonstrably hurts real people, in real time -- from immoral behavior (behavior which violates one's religious belief system).

Does that make any sense?

EDITED for fumble-fingered typos. Can't blame Demon Rum for that one today, sadly!

Edited August 12, 2010 by Doris_G

[Atencio 43]

I accept responsibility for this. I was somewhat surprised by Gary, the person who apparently makes no judgments on other people with his declaration that those who drink alcohol are idiots and the only sensible celebratory drink is diet coke. Please, diet coke is full of #######.

No kidding. Everyone know Coke Zero is the party drink.