Absurd

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Darnell, If you want to get your blood pressure up trying to force people to behave the way you want, go ahead.

The only thing you will succeed in is raising your blood pressure.

I'm also putting your one man warrior stance in context with your attack on Lisa the other day.

Edited August 14, 2010 by Its a MADHOUSE

[Empress of Groovy 373]

You can't change the nature of what VJ is. You just can't. But by all means try - it's fun to watch. It's like an online version of Groundhog Day, but with different actors.

I was just going to say...

At the risk of sounding like a "legacy member" whose experience is now irrelevant to those currently going through the process, this is more of the same. I wouldn't say it's a cycle necessarily, but a sort of constant state that might change venues (i.e., forums) and then back again. There are personality conflicts all the time, some of them longstanding and more or less limited to OT, and some in other forums. It's inevitable on a site like this, with mostly user-generated content and its basis in people sharing their experiences while going through a very stressful process. "VJ just isn't what it used to be" has been a complaint pretty much since the site's inception. It's true that some people can be abrasive in responding to new posters; I don't think too many people would deny that. However, some members, particularly newcomers who might not take the time to do some basic research and become familiar with the general tone of the site, are very thin-skinned and can turn a thread into a sh!tslinging match very quickly.

I think the tricky part is the extent to which the moderation team should get involved in threads in which clear TOS violations are not taking place. It's not against the TOS (I don't think) to take what might be perceived as an insensitive tone with someone, and I don't think it's a mod's place to finger-wag and tell adults to play nice. It's condescending. I do think that overall, VJ is a welcoming place, but a sense of humor and the ability to take advice gracefully are crucial.

Also, it's the height of message board rudeness to call someone a troll.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

Post containing TOS violation (personal attack) has been removed.

[Rob and Jill 82]

Thanks. That is a valid question and generally it is what I do try to do. I try to keep a thread going as long as it is useful, removing the offending posts and returning the useful information through 'cut and paste' back to the thread. It takes some time but for a good and useful thread, it is worth making that effort. Sometimes, however - and in this particular thread - it is not necessarily 'what' has been said that is only the problem but 'how' it has been said. For the majority of the posts it was virtually impossible to remove the 'tone' of the posts in order to retain the useful information. It would have required several hours work of cutting and pasting and editing to return any of the useful material to that thread in such a way that the tone was not apparent. When a thread is like that, there are other avenues of useful information available that do not require such intensive surgery that it really becomes an unnecessary exercise.

Sometimes, if we are able to intercede early enough, yes, a thread can be salvaged through warnings and removal of offending posts. Unfortunately, we don't always get notified of the thread when a problem is just starting. Often - and in this case - the problem is already full blown by the time it is reported to us. In this case, it was the request from the OP to remove the thread that brought it to our attention. It is one of the liabilities of VJ moderation that we are not paid, full time moderators who spend our working hours patrolling the forum for offending posts and TOS violations, but are part time volunteers who respond to reported violations and the occasional problems that we stumble across during out own use of VJ as members. We would be better able to intervene in a more timely way and perhaps enable a thread to recover if we were able to patrol and find problems earlier but that just isn't feasible under the current set-up.

While it is possible that if we had been able to intervene earlier the thread would not have degenerated as it did, I am not really sure that it would have made a difference in this case. The posters responded to the poster and not to the question, and the first 'attack' came almost immediately. The question was not, in fact, answered for quite a few posts as the posters were more concerned about telling the OP what they thought of her for asking the question than of providing her with the requested information.

If people wish to have their useful information remain in a thread it is an easy enough matter - they just need to take the time to word their post in such a way that it is helpful, rather than a hurtful - regardless what they think of the poster.

All good points again, and you're the first moderator who has taken the time to answer any of the questions made in the initial post!

[Empress of Groovy 373]

I disagree, in Toto.

Sure, there are established patterns - you know them just as well as I do -

I say one CAN change the nature of VJ.

OK - granted, not just 'one' - but IMO, SEVERAL, or a GROUP, can.

Short of making "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" part of the TOS, it's impossible, I'm afraid.

[Mags 112]

Skim, grab what's needed to attack, and proceed.

Case and point?

DIDO

What the...? So, the poster took her name from a pop star? What's your point?

Actually, my case in point was made, rather than yours. You deliberately took MY post as an attack. It wasn't. It was a rather weary aside, from someone who has seen it all before.

No attack was made nor intended.

[Rob and Jill 82]

What the...? So, the poster took her name from a pop star? What's your point?

Actually, my case in point was made, rather than yours. You deliberately took MY post as an attack. It wasn't. It was a rather weary aside, from someone who has seen it all before.

No attack was made nor intended.

LOL. Her name is Dodi. At least get her name right.

You completely skimmed over EVERYTHING else Kathryn said, grabbed the few words you felt were relevant, made your point about her b!tching and whining, and ran off. I'm willing to give you points for the Groundhog's Day comment being quite funny, in fact, that alone would have made the entire post funny, non-provoking, and worth the read.

[Mags 112]

LOL. Her name is Dodi. At least get her name right.

You completely skimmed over EVERYTHING else Kathryn said, grabbed the few words you felt were relevant, made your point about her b!tching and whining, and ran off. I'm willing to give you points for the Groundhog's Day comment being quite funny, in fact, that alone would have made the entire post funny, non-provoking, and worth the read.

Actually, the b!tching and whining comment was supposed to be a generalisation and not directed at Dodi/Dido (is her name REALLY not Dido??).

I didn't skim. I read it. I ingested what she said and used a line from it to make a point I felt needed making. That point is that the newer members are complaining that the older members are being nasty. But, I think it can also go the other way - the newer members are in such a state of high anxiety that, unless they get hugs and kisses and reassurances, they over-react and assume everyone who isn't offering these is attacking. I think they need to "chill" also.

I'm going to be honest here, Joe (okay, Jill, but I'm no good with names), you are rather abrasive yourself. I don't read your posts and find them non confrontational. In fact, I read them and find them very confrontational.

Give it two years, young Padawan, give it two years.

[The_Dude 1,142]

Post containing TOS violation (personal attack) has been removed.

Kathryn you can't be serious. That was not a personal attack, at all. I merely pointed out that if he wants to whine about purging OT people, that he has a choice himself, he can either leave, not read OT.

[Mags 112]

Post containing TOS violation (personal attack) has been removed.

Okay, Kathryn, you are taking things WAY too far now. There was NO personal attack in that post. So, yes, I'm calling you out on it.

You are being FAR too heavy handed on VJ, something that I never thought I'd say about any mod on VJ, considering I was one once. I always said to myself that I would never critique the admin, because I KNOW how much of a hard job it is.

But you are just taking things to ridiculous levels now. Just plain ridiculous.

LaL and I made a monster.

Edit: Gosh darn it, if you saw it, you'd know why! lol

Edited August 14, 2010 by Mags

[Darnell 8,478]

Darnell, If you want to get your blood pressure up trying to force people to behave the way you want, go ahead.

The only thing you will succeed in is raising your blood pressure.

I'm also putting your one man warrior stance in context with your attack on Lisa the other day.

Oh - to be certain - there are 'other' things to do, besides my 'blood pressure rising'. Many of them not require any blood pressure to be elevated, at all.

Lisa? Sorry, don't recognize the name - is any VJ member name or member profile url ? TIA !

Edited August 14, 2010 by Darnell

[Kathryn41 3,205]

Okay, Kathryn, you are taking things WAY too far now. There was NO personal attack in that post. So, yes, I'm calling you out on it.

You are being FAR too heavy handed on VJ, something that I never thought I'd say about any mod on VJ, considering I was one once. I always said to myself that I would never critique the admin, because I KNOW how much of a hard job it is.

But you are just taking things to ridiculous levels now. Just plain ridiculous.

LaL and I made a monster.

Edit: Gosh darn it, if you saw it, you'd know why! lol

I am on my way out the door, but I am just responding to say that it appeared to be a personal attack to me. Telling someone they aren't wanted here and should leave because of how they post is a personal attack. If you have difficulties with the decision please refer it to Captain Ewok or one of the other members of the mod team.

[Rob and Jill 82]

was just going to say...

At the risk of sounding like a "legacy member" whose experience is now irrelevant to those currently going through the process, this is more of the same. I wouldn't say it's a cycle necessarily, but a sort of constant state that might change venues (i.e., forums) and then back again. There are personality conflicts all the time, some of them longstanding and more or less limited to OT, and some in other forums. It's inevitable on a site like this, with mostly user-generated content and its basis in people sharing their experiences while going through a very stressful process. "VJ just isn't what it used to be" has been a complaint pretty much since the site's inception. It's true that some people can be abrasive in responding to new posters; I don't think too many people would deny that. However, some members, particularly newcomers who might not take the time to do some basic research and become familiar with the general tone of the site, are very thin-skinned and can turn a thread into a sh!tslinging match very quickly.

I think the tricky part is the extent to which the moderation team should get involved in threads in which clear TOS violations are not taking place. It's not against the TOS (I don't think) to take what might be perceived as an insensitive tone with someone, and I don't think it's a mod's place to finger-wag and tell adults to play nice. It's condescending. I do think that overall, VJ is a welcoming place, but a sense of humor and the ability to take advice gracefully are crucial.

Empress and the others,

I don't think anyone completely disregards what anyone who has been through this process has to say. It is inevitable that in a group of large diversity not everyone is going to get along 24/7 and I don't think anyone reasonably expects it to. You are 100% correct in that line of thought! I don't think the frustration here is that "VJ is not what it used to be". I think the complaint is that a new person cannot walk into the forums and ask something simple, share their experiences with the people who ARE CURRENTLY going through a situation, without randomly being attacked.

I'll give you an example. I'm certainly no longer upset about this, but it was upsetting at the time. When I joined this site, I read and researched for over a month before I ever asked a question. Not a single question. The first question I asked was VERY rudely answered and I was told to go do my research. I read everything I could find before I asked the question and not once in my month or more of research did I find that particular answer. A moderator no less, was rude, unthoughtful and made an assumption that I didn't do ANY research before I asked a question.

While I realize that the "norm" around here is for someone to make an account, entirely skip the suggested reading section, and demand an answer immediately, that was not what I did, yet I was treated with the same disdain as someone who does do the aforementioned things. Can you look back to those years ago and imagine the stinging rejection that gave to someone, could have been given to you? Can you imagine the feelings of stupidity and doubt that could foster in someone who is in a fragile and confusing state already? I pretty much gave that mod the mental F-you and continued on. Do you know what happened? Someone else came along and politely pointed me in the direction I needed.

It takes the same amount of time to click the "Guides" button at the top, copy the link, and say to someone "Hey, here is a link that might help!" as it does to tell someone that they're stupid, lazy, and to do their research. (For clarity, I am not saying YOU do that!) I can give another example. I was upset about a process I didn't realize had the potential to be as time consuming as it is. Maven INSTANTLY was comforting about it and offered a way to direct and channel my mind elsewhere. She took a few seconds out of her day to use her knowledge to not only comfort, but to offer a solution to redirect the focus. It took just as much time to be compassionate as it could have taken for her to be hateful.

That certainly doesn't mean that I or any other member feels that someone should hand hold, dance through daisies, and fill out the forms for us. What it does mean is that by having the experience of the FULL Visa Journey does give the "Legacy" members an ability to give a unique perspective. However, a negative perspective as a first impression is going to have a more degrading effect on those without thick skin. It is going to cause some people to become defensive, and it is going to cause arguments.

It takes two hands to push someone down and only one to lift them up.

I'll even stop and reach out this far. Perhaps the word "Troll" is not the best word to have been used, although, by definition of the word it does apply to numerous situations. I'll stop, back up, and say, if anyone was offended by my use of that word, I sincerely apologize for it. I'll even further say from this point on, every logistical point I wanted made has been made, and that in my heart I know there are others who see this issue too. The fact that it is not just a select few "noobs" which by the way is just as insulting as calling someone a troll, who see that where there could be compassion, disdain is taking over. I'll continue to hope that perhaps some of the words is THIS post will make others stop and think for a millisecond about what they SHOULD say versus what they CAN say.

[Rebecca Jo 1,962]

Yes, Johnny. I did call you a troll, when you'd jumped to a second thread on the same day and were being just as rude to me as you were in the first one. That is what a troll is, by definition - someone in a forum who looks for the next place to pounce and antagonize. And I was the one who ASKED the moderators to step in on that thread. I have no problem admitting that I use the reporting features. It's what they're there for. The majority of the comments that were removed were from you and boiler, so let's not act like it was all me in that fray. I had no problem with someone disproving something I said. What I did have a problem with was your arrogant attitude, and the lack of proof, simply rude and snide remarks. I was quoting directly from the I-134 instruction sheet, and asking you to back up what you were saying, which you couldn't do. In the end, Jim offered a courteous reply with some good information, and I ceded my point.

The point here is that many of the older members have taken it upon themselves to decide that they are judge, jury and lord of this forum and dole out whatever punishment or smackdown they deem necessary and deserving to the newer members here for daring to ask a question. That's completely against the purpose of VJ, and as I stated before, it's making many of the newer members feel unwelcome or unwanted here, and at best, just afraid to post. If you want a place to go hang out and be snarky to people who aren't members of your clique, and to train others on how to bash and flame people, by all means START YOUR OWN FORUM, then you can be legacy members in your own right, and mould it into the haven of bitchiness you desire. But don't try to turn VJ into that. There is still a lot of useful information here and a lot of people who still need help and want to give back.

Dodi -

I was never rude to you in that thread. And I did give you the proof. You just chose not to look at it. Jim reiterated the points I had brought up in my original links to you.

I was at my job when I posted to you. I didn't have time to get flowery. I spoke directly and to the point. I was NEVER rude to you in that thread.

[English Muffin 59]

I'm sorry you feel the need to be hostile. I won't be joining you, as I don't feel the need to do that same.

That's better, short and to the point.

You're learning.