Is a violation affecting GOOD moral character?

[gigant 0]

I will be eligible to file for Naturalization next September 2010 on a 5 years residency rule; I have, however a conviction record; I was arrested on March 2009 in Queens - NY, for patronizing a prostitute;I was offered a deal to plea guilty of a violation and I accepted; (penal code 240.20) I need to ask How many chances do I have to be approved?Some advisors suggest to wait 5 years from the conviction, some say "dont worry" you will be approved, it's just a violation" please advice, I am very confused thank you

[NickD 203]

I will be eligible to file for Naturalization next September 2010 on a 5 years residency rule; I have, however a conviction record; I was arrested on March 2009 in Queens - NY, for patronizing a prostitute;I was offered a deal to plea guilty of a violation and I accepted; (penal code 240.20) I need to ask How many chances do I have to be approved?Some advisors suggest to wait 5 years from the conviction, some say "dont worry" you will be approved, it's just a violation" please advice, I am very confused thank you

Sounds like you may have been a victim of a police prostitute sting operation. http://www.popcenter.org/responses/sting_operations/, whether this is legal or not, have no knowledge of it, but being born and raised here, certainly aware of it, and when approached, simply said, no thanks.

Really don't know if they read your rights, your right to an attorney, or just some kind of fine to get your money and end it, perhaps would have been better for you if you found a good attorney. Not much different than a cop hiding behind a bush giving you a ticket for a rolling stop in some God forsaken deserted place. Could try to find an attorney now to learn if you have been ripped off, should still be within the statue of limitations. But these are state laws, prostitution is legal in some states like Nevada.

I can't tell you how your IO will handle this, but the more information you have, the better off you will be. Gee, even in my small Christian town in central Wisconsin, 80% of our police force was arrested for being drug dealers. Makes sense, if you want to break the law, get on the side of the legal system. Surprised my fellow Americans in a democracy aren't screaming about this.

[guzzyron 0]

I will be eligible to file for Naturalization next September 2010 on a 5 years residency rule; I have, however a conviction record; I was arrested on March 2009 in Queens - NY, for patronizing a prostitute;I was offered a deal to plea guilty of a violation and I accepted; (penal code 240.20) I need to ask How many chances do I have to be approved?Some advisors suggest to wait 5 years from the conviction, some say "dont worry" you will be approved, it's just a violation" please advice, I am very confused thank you

Gigant,

Unfortunately, you pleaded guilty to a serious offense with serious immigration consequences. On the N-400, you will have to answer "Yes" and provide explanations to questions like:

Have you ever been arrested, cited or detained by a law enforcement officer for any reason?

Have you ever been charged with committing any crime or offense?

Have you ever been convicted of a crime or offense?

Have you ever been in jail or prison?

Have you ever been a prostitute, or procured anyone for prostitution?

Having to answer "Yes" to that many questions cast your moral character in bad light and is grounds for denial (esp. if you get a strict, no-nonsense adjudication officer). Before you apply, don't rely on advice from an internet forum or hearsay from people you know. Talk to a qualified immigration attorney and also get a second opinion. They will advice you if it's OK and how to go forward with your application or if to forget about citizenship altogether and remain an LPR (because sometimes if your citizenship application is rejected based on conviction of a serious crime they may also take your green card away as well). Also, depending on the statue of limitations and laws of NY, an attorney may be able to get your guilty plea thrown out and replaced with a trial, a fine, probation, community service - whatever!

This is a lesson to all immigrants: when arrested by law enforcement, don't make any pleas or statements without first talking to a criminal lawyer who also specializes in immigration matters. This is because you don't know what the outcome will be or how it will affect your immigration status. The officers making the deal are NOT acting in your best interest; they're giving you a "deal" based on what is best for them. A good attorney on other hand knows the letter of the law and can guide you to what will be to your advantage. I know an immigrant friend who was charged with the same offense as you, but he got a lawyer who negotiated a simple fine and no conviction. He is a USC now.

Good luck.

Edited August 12, 2010 by guzzyron

[gigant 0]

Gigant,

Unfortunately, you pleaded guilty to a serious offense with serious immigration consequences. On the N-400, you will have to answer "Yes" and provide explanations to questions like:

Have you ever been arrested, cited or detained by a law enforcement officer for any reason?

Have you ever been charged with committing any crime or offense?

Have you ever been convicted of a crime or offense?

Have you ever been in jail or prison?

Have you ever been a prostitute, or procured anyone for prostitution?

Having to answer "Yes" to that many questions cast your moral character in bad light and is grounds for denial (esp. if you get a strict, no-nonsense adjudication officer). Before you apply, don't rely on advice from an internet forum or hearsay from people you know. Talk to a qualified immigration attorney and also get a second opinion. They will advice you if it's OK and how to go forward with your application or if to forget about citizenship altogether and remain an LPR (because sometimes if your citizenship application is rejected based on conviction of a serious crime they may also take your green card away as well). Also, depending on the statue of limitations and laws of NY, an attorney may be able to get your guilty plea thrown out and replaced with a trial, a fine, probation, community service - whatever!

This is a lesson to all immigrants: when arrested by law enforcement, don't make any pleas or statements without first talking to a criminal lawyer who also specializes in immigration matters. This is because you don't know what the outcome will be or how it will affect your immigration status. The officers making the deal are NOT acting in your best interest; they're giving you a "deal" based on what is best for them. A good attorney on other hand knows the letter of the law and can guide you to what will be to your advantage. I know an immigrant friend who was charged with the same offense as you, but he got a lawyer who negotiated a simple fine and no conviction. He is a USC now.

Good luck.

You are wrong,

"Have you ever been a prostitute or procured anyone for prostitution" NO! This answer is NO

I am consulting lawyers and they say : IF this is the only conviction (and this conviction is not involving CIMT), I should be fine, is at the discretion of the IO.

And , anyway, if I let 5 years from the conviction pass by, I will be apporved 100% as good morac chacacter is established for the 5 years prior filing.

wHen i plead guilty all I wanted was get out the Courtroom. i Was charged with a cRIME,; if I decided not to pled guilty then what if at trial I was convicted?

WHat if the lady that entraped me had a tape?

I d be sent to jail for up to a year, also probably deported;

Was your friend charged with the same offense?

But now you are telling me I CAN REOPEN MY CASE?? THe court said my case is closed I had no probation time,

I didnt know I can reopen my case

[Captain Oates 911]

Moral Turpitude OR bad character..

Some people have been refused on bad character grounds for not paying speeding tickets !

So messing with hookers has to be higher up the scale than that

The standard is how the average American citizen behaves.

Would the average American Citizen want someone with a hooker offense dating their daughter ?

I think it's a sticky wicket. I used to think that moral turpitude was the standard but it isn't. It's 'good character'

Seriously, you have been up to the line with your absences both total and the 6 month thing and you have been arrested for the hooker offence - if I were you I would leave it until the 5 years comes and then do it

I reckon you are at serious risk of being thrown out. They do warn you of that when the USCIS talks about the dangers of applying for naturalization.

So do the lawyers.

It happens that people are deported because of a naturalization application - it really does.

[NickD 203]

Moral Turpitude OR bad character..

Some people have been refused on bad character grounds for not paying speeding tickets !

So messing with hookers has to be higher up the scale than that

The standard is how the average American citizen behaves.

Would the average American Citizen want someone with a hooker offense dating their daughter ?

I think it's a sticky wicket. I used to think that moral turpitude was the standard but it isn't. It's 'good character'

Seriously, you have been up to the line with your absences both total and the 6 month thing and you have been arrested for the hooker offence - if I were you I would leave it until the 5 years comes and then do it

I reckon you are at serious risk of being thrown out. They do warn you of that when the USCIS talks about the dangers of applying for naturalization.

So do the lawyers.

It happens that people are deported because of a naturalization application - it really does.

Do you just have report offenses for the last five years? Am under the impression that it starts from the day you were born and even offenses in the foreign country. Could be wrong on this, usually am, where is the ruling on this?

[Captain Oates 911]

Do you just have report offenses for the last five years? Am under the impression that it starts from the day you were born and even offenses in the foreign country. Could be wrong on this, usually am, where is the ruling on this?

You are right - I was going by his earlier post and got the idea that his lawyer was saying 5 years would let the offense slip and I just passed over it. Now you mention it, it doesn't sound right - what a murder 6 years before is ok ? nope.

I would not be hasty about filing if I was in these circumstances.. He must have an alien he want to bring in desperately as getting the vote in exchange for this risk doesn't make sense -

HE needs an ACE lawyer ... and to take his time about deciding ...

In an earlier post he said he was somewhere round the limit with both the 6 months absence AND the total days (50%) out of the country. Add a hooker offense to it and this application is bound to really blow up I reckon.

Edited August 14, 2010 by saywhat

[NickD 203]

You are right - I was going by his earlier post and got the idea that his lawyer was saying 5 years would let the offense slip and I just passed over it. Now you mention it, it doesn't sound right - what a murder 6 years before is ok ? nope.

I would not be hasty about filing if I was in these circumstances.. He must have an alien he want to bring in desperately as getting the vote in exchange for this risk doesn't make sense -

HE needs an ACE lawyer ... and to take his time about deciding ...

In an earlier post he said he was somewhere round the limit with both the 6 months absence AND the total days (50%) out of the country. Add a hooker offense to it and this application is bound to really blow up I reckon.

Those offenses have to be reported, if not, deportation is in the books. Was sympathetic as I know how crooked some of our law enforcement works. But if your speculation is true, gets some gal to petition for him, comes here, gets married, then divorced, gets US citizenship and petitions for someone else to come over.... That would certainly raise a big red flag with immigration. But I assume this is just speculation.

[Captain Oates 911]

Those offenses have to be reported, if not, deportation is in the books. Was sympathetic as I know how crooked some of our law enforcement works. But if your speculation is true, gets some gal to petition for him, comes here, gets married, then divorced, gets US citizenship and petitions for someone else to come over.... That would certainly raise a big red flag with immigration. But I assume this is just speculation.

yeah I don't know what's happening but if the 6 month AND 50% rules are being bumped and what with the midnight rambling too, I am glad I am not turning up for that interview - and if I was the lawyer, I would want paying in advance.

Makes my two and a half year old 10mph over $133 speed ticket and 80 days total absent in 3 years look quite pretty.

I did look lustfully on Liz Hurley but they don't know about that unless they really do implant brain chips..

[gigant 0]

Moral Turpitude OR bad character..

Some people have been refused on bad character grounds for not paying speeding tickets !

So messing with hookers has to be higher up the scale than that

The standard is how the average American citizen behaves.

Would the average American Citizen want someone with a hooker offense dating their daughter ?

I think it's a sticky wicket. I used to think that moral turpitude was the standard but it isn't. It's 'good character'

Seriously, you have been up to the line with your absences both total and the 6 month thing and you have been arrested for the hooker offence - if I were you I would leave it until the 5 years comes and then do it

I reckon you are at serious risk of being thrown out. They do warn you of that when the USCIS talks about the dangers of applying for naturalization.

So do the lawyers.

It happens that people are deported because of a naturalization application - it really does.

BE THROWN Out for a conviction of a VIolation??

Are you an educated individual or you just finished elementary school??

A violation is not even a crime offense, not a CIMT; and then what 6 months are you talking about? I was out for 5 and half months

This offense is the only disgraced event that happened in almost 10 years of living in US,

I employ US people, I help the economy of this country, I tell you I am a serious individual that on March 2009 made a mistake at 4am in a Street in Queens

The big picture is different that what you think of me..

Certainly if there is a risk then I will not file the N400;

I pray God that immigration laws will not change 5 years from now:

what if they change the laws and they make all immigrants with ANY kind of conviction uneligible for Citizenship.....

[gigant 0]

You are right - I was going by his earlier post and got the idea that his lawyer was saying 5 years would let the offense slip and I just passed over it. Now you mention it, it doesn't sound right - what a murder 6 years before is ok ? nope.

I would not be hasty about filing if I was in these circumstances.. He must have an alien he want to bring in desperately as getting the vote in exchange for this risk doesn't make sense -

HE needs an ACE lawyer ... and to take his time about deciding ...

In an earlier post he said he was somewhere round the limit with both the 6 months absence AND the total days (50%) out of the country. Add a hooker offense to it and this application is bound to really blow up I reckon.

I HAVE no one to bring in you keyboard criminal..

I want to be a proud AMerican Citizen, I left everthing behind to come here, my family in italy, my friends , my life , to start over

I worked like an animal day and night for years being careful to respect all the laws and not to get in trouble,

I was dreaming to have a US passport for years; now I still live in the same block where I was arrested, every day when I walk by it feels like a nightmere..

I regret my mistake and I hope to still have chances to become a citizen

[Captain Oates 911]

BE THROWN Out for a conviction of a VIolation??

Are you an educated individual or you just finished elementary school??

A violation is not even a crime offense, not a CIMT; and then what 6 months are you talking about? I was out for 5 and half months

This offense is the only disgraced event that happened in almost 10 years of living in US,

I employ US people, I help the economy of this country, I tell you I am a serious individual that on March 2009 made a mistake at 4am in a Street in Queens

The big picture is different that what you think of me..

Certainly if there is a risk then I will not file the N400;

I pray God that immigration laws will not change 5 years from now:

what if they change the laws and they make all immigrants with ANY kind of conviction uneligible for Citizenship.....

One aspect is the conviction and whether it is moral turpitude - but what I am trying to make you understand is that 'good character' can be demonstrated or rebuked in a number of ways. We had one guy on here who had been refused because he hadn't paid speeding tickets - not for the tickets, but the lack of payment

Beats me how a guy like you can come on here for help - and when he gets advice he calls the helpers 'uneducated'.

Seems to me you are not too bright yourself if you put yourself in so much jeopardy. You were panicking about getting back inside 6 months because of the volcanic ash and you said your total days out were pushing the limit too (50% of three years !). Then there is this matter of the hooker that you are trying to sell as if it's not even a real offense. You are pushing the limit in so many ways but you are clever and we are dumb ?

My son is just the same - he blames all of us stupid people in the world as he staggers from one self induced crisis to the next. He is clever, we are stupid.

You are flying too near the sun Icarus.

[gigant 0]

One aspect is the conviction and whether it is moral turpitude - but what I am trying to make you understand is that 'good character' can be demonstrated or rebuked in a number of ways. We had one guy on here who had been refused because he hadn't paid speeding tickets - not for the tickets, but the lack of payment

Beats me how a guy like you can come on here for help - and when he gets advice he calls the helpers 'uneducated'.

Seems to me you are not too bright yourself if you put yourself in so much jeopardy. You were panicking about getting back inside 6 months because of the volcanic ash and you said your total days out were pushing the limit too (50% of three years !). Then there is this matter of the hooker that you are trying to sell as if it's not even a real offense. You are pushing the limit in so many ways but you are clever and we are dumb ?

My son is just the same - he blames all of us stupid people in the world as he staggers from one self induced crisis to the next. He is clever, we are stupid.

You are flying too near the sun Icarus.

The board of Immigration Appeals of CA ruled in favour of an immigrant with the same situation; I am in NY;

Legally if I am denied I have ground to appeal and win, but like you said, I dont want to fly too near the sun,

I can wait to become a citizen, but what if the statutory period of 5 years will not count when a IO make a decision?..

THe advices that has been given me so far go from "you will be deported" to "oh you will be fine"..

mY mistake is I am asking for advice in the wrong place, and its my fault; i should ask for advice to attorneys not to n400 applicants..

i appreciated any contribution by the way and thank you, there s lot of emotions involved here

[Captain Oates 911]

The board of Immigration Appeals of CA ruled in favour of an immigrant with the same situation; I am in NY;

Legally if I am denied I have ground to appeal and win, but like you said, I dont want to fly too near the sun,

I can wait to become a citizen, but what if the statutory period of 5 years will not count when a IO make a decision?..

THe advices that has been given me so far go from "you will be deported" to "oh you will be fine"..

mY mistake is I am asking for advice in the wrong place, and its my fault; i should ask for advice to attorneys not to n400 applicants..

i appreciated any contribution by the way and thank you, there s lot of emotions involved here

what does this bolded sentence above mean ?

Do you mean the 5 years as a GC holder before you are eligible to file on your own ? Or are you under the impression that after 5 years, any legal problems become statute barred ? Or are you thinking there is a USCIS rule that says any offenses older than 5 years need not be mentioned and do not count ?

What does the 5 years refer to ?

ps I used an attorney at K1 - I told him what to do and he said no you don't need to. I said I would get an RFE if he didn't do it. He said no I do these every day, you won't get an RFE

He submitted it and I got an RFE

There are plenty of people on here who know that these immigration lawyers are a very mixed bunch and some do more harm than good, they add time and they cost.

In your case you need a good one - a bad one will do more harm than good

[gigant 0]

what does this bolded sentence above mean ?

Do you mean the 5 years as a GC holder before you are eligible to file on your own ? Or are you under the impression that after 5 years, any legal problems become statute barred ? Or are you thinking there is a USCIS rule that says any offenses older than 5 years need not be mentioned and do not count ?

What does the 5 years refer to ?

ps I used an attorney at K1 - I told him what to do and he said no you don't need to. I said I would get an RFE if he didn't do it. He said no I do these every day, you won't get an RFE

He submitted it and I got an RFE

There are plenty of people on here who know that these immigration lawyers are a very mixed bunch and some do more harm than good, they add time and they cost.

In your case you need a good one - a bad one will do more harm than good

I mean,

even IF I file 5 years after my disgraced conviction, (so the 5 years statutory period prior filing is "clean", with no convictions),

who knows if the IO will still consider me a person of not GMC?,

The feeling here is that the final decision is DISCRETIONAL to the IO; is discretional if if file now and it will still be discretional 5 years from now

He/she may still deny my case, the only difference is if I file 5 years from now I have a solid base for appeal because

I meet the 5 years statutory period requirement (unless law changes and will extend the 5 years period into 10 years..)

Like you said I need a good attorney; however the cost of an hypotetical appeal or lawsuit against CIS just scares me..