Er... I Spy... no violation?

[^_^ 5,021]

However, lately there has been an excessive amount of racism and misogyny being allowed in OT.

The kind of speech you call racism and misogyny, the new VJ moderation considers revolutionary advances against the evils of political correctness. VJ moderation is leading the fight here on these forums against the triple menace of multiculturalism, pluralism and tolerance.

[Pooky 3,784]

The kind of speech you call racism and misogyny, the new VJ moderation considers revolutionary advances against the evils of political correctness. VJ moderation is leading the fight here on these forums against the triple menace of multiculturalism, pluralism and tolerance.

I rather think the issue here is less about actual racism and more about some people crying wolf by introducing accusations of racism to kill discourse on subjects that are well to the fore in this electoral season.

That's not to say that there are no incidences of racism, because I'm not blind to the fact that it occurs. Neither am I blind to the fact that both sides of the political divide indulge in racist commentary, though both will deny any such thing. When a clear case of racism occurs, I think the moderation does a pretty good job of shutting it down quickly. But they can't, and don't, shut threads down just because someone makes an accusation of racism. Nor should they.

I think what's lacking on VJ right now is tolerance by some posters to discourse they don't agree with. Well, sorry, but these people need to stop being overly sensitive and realise that right now there is a political football in play that is going to have countless instances of race being mentioned and that shutting every discussion down because of the mere mention of it is a serious restriction on people's freedom of expression.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

Despite the general moaning, which has always been the same, VJ hasn't changed at all. There is still the same level of discontent, rudeness and arguing that there has always been. The faces may have changed, but the content is the same.

However, lately there has been an excessive amount of racism and misogyny being allowed in OT. Not posted, as that has always been the case, but allowed. Anglophile women have also been the subject of numerous scathing posts which have largely gone ignored by VJ moderation. And it HAS been reported.

There is no longer any consistency to what is removed. It tends to all be down to the "luck of the draw" of which mod happens to be patrolling at what time.

A prime example is today. Currently, in OT, there are numerous digs and slights of a misogynistic or racist nature. These are being ignored. However a post, in LATIN, gets removed and the poster suspended! It doesn't matter that it is an obscene poem. It's not directed at anyone, it's not directed at a religion, a race or a single person.

It's a POEM. In LATIN. With ONE word in German. A word that is used throughout VJ on a daily basis.

And yet the other things I mentioned are still there. If we are using the TOS that strictly in OT, then I expect ALL of the other threads containing misogyny, racism and attacks on women of Anglophile descent to be removed also.

Be consistent.

Edit: grammar

You obviously have not read the translation of the poem in Latin. Obscenities are not allowed on VJ regardless of what language they are written in. Read the translation then tell me that it was acceptable for a family based immigration website.

Here is the TOS violation:

Publish, Post, upload, distribute or disseminate or offer to do the same any inappropriate, defamatory, infringing, obscene, or unlawful material, information, or in general, content.

By posting this particular poem, it was also apparent that the poster was thumbing her nose at the TOS, thinking that by posting in Latin, a language few people read anymore, she would be getting one over on the TOS because she had posted something obscene and no one knew about it except those in the 'know'. Her attempt to say how innocent this poem was because she studied it in high school (which I highly doubt) as well as having done a translation in University, shows further intent to 'hide' the truth of the poem in its foreign language disguise when she knew full well it was not innocent. The language of the poem and the subject matter/content of the poem make it a TOS violation on Visa Journey.

Edited August 15, 2010 by Kathryn41

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

You obviously have not read the translation of the poem in Latin. Obscenities are not allowed on VJ regardless of what language they are written in. Read the translation then tell me that it was acceptable for a family based immigration website.

Here is the TOS violation:

By posting this particular poem, it was also apparent that the poster was thumbing her nose at the TOS, thinking that by posting in Latin, a language few people read anymore, she would be getting one over on the moderation team because she had posted something obscene and no one knew about it except those in the 'know'. Her attempt to say how innocent this poem was because she studied it in high school (which I highly doubt) as well as having done a translation in University, shows further intent to 'hide' the truth of the poem in its foreign language disguise when she knew full well it was not innocent. The language of the poem and the subject matter/content of the poem make it a TOS violation on Visa Journey.

Kathryn, think what you will of me, but know full well that I did indeed study that poem in high school, in my AP Latin class on Catullus. Perhaps I went to a more progressive school than you expected. We were told to think of it what we wanted, but to put it in context of what the poet was writing about at the time, and that the shock value of the two verbs in the first line was intended to reinforce the poet's declaration of masculine power. Not only that, but I spent a goodly part of one college summer on a fellowship at UCLA translating Catullus, with this poem as one of the cases I used in demonstrating the changing mores of society in approaching translation of that poet from the late Enlightenment period to the dawn of Modernism.

That the subject matter is a TOS violation is bogus. If one leaves out the two "offensive" verbs, it discusses the poet's disdain for two men who have been slandering him, calling him soft and girly. He replies by saying he's not, in language which gives no doubt that he is a manly man. How is this in any way any different than the BS that goes on in OT where members doubt each other's sexuality? Furthermore, one of the verbs in question (the first) is something that I myself have been accused of doing by another VJ member; the post was removed, the member was not suspended as far as I know. Take issue with a few words, but the subject matter is not a TOS violation, unless self-defence in the face of false accusation is now verboten.

Also, I find it disappointing that you say you know what I was doing when I posted that. You don't. I really don't want to take this any further because I think this has gone too far and I want to put this to bed. I do not like being accused of being a liar though about what I did and did not learn at school.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

So why again then did you publish the Catullus Carmina 16? And why did you publish it in Latin instead of providing the English translation as well?

It is more than just the first and last line as well - it is the 2nd and 11th lines as well which are inappropriate.

Edited August 15, 2010 by Kathryn41

[mox 298]

Maven, you are only supposed to post misogyny, racism, and political stupidity in OT. Come on, you should know that.

[Mags 112]

You obviously have not read the translation of the poem in Latin. Obscenities are not allowed on VJ regardless of what language they are written in. Read the translation then tell me that it was acceptable for a family based immigration website.

Here is the TOS violation:

By posting this particular poem, it was also apparent that the poster was thumbing her nose at the TOS, thinking that by posting in Latin, a language few people read anymore, she would be getting one over on the TOS because she had posted something obscene and no one knew about it except those in the 'know'. Her attempt to say how innocent this poem was because she studied it in high school (which I highly doubt) as well as having done a translation in University, shows further intent to 'hide' the truth of the poem in its foreign language disguise when she knew full well it was not innocent. The language of the poem and the subject matter/content of the poem make it a TOS violation on Visa Journey.

Firstly, I have read the translation of the poem. Secondly, considering the ####### you DO allow to get posted in OT, I really don't see this poem being an issue.

You addressed the posting of the poem in your reply, however, you didn't address anything to do with the consistency issue I brought up. That is even more topical now, considering Legacy member's latest thread in this forum.

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

Still unadressed is the fact that a VJ member said that I was giving out oral sex. The only apparent mod action was removal of the post. That statement was a direct, defamatory and obscene attack on an actual VJ member, namely me. I get suspended for posting a poem, one that I actually rate very highly, and which was not directed at any member at all. I posted in Latin not to circumvent the TOS but to present the original; in translation, without major orthographic gymnastics, capturing the metre is nigh on impossible. Furthermore, lines 2 and 11 contain nothing more shocking than what is seen in OT every single day. Every single day.

I posted it to point out how patently absurd it is that so-called obscenity gets censored with a heavy hand (I only expected it to be removed) whilst mod validation of hate speech seems to be okay. I'm half Hispanic. Do you even begin to comprehend how hurtful it is for me to read again and again that brown people are somehow deserving of ignominious death for crossing the border? The hate perpetrated against Muslms turns my stomach. Don't even start me on the rampant misogyny. Please. So remove the swears, and throw this issue into further relief.

You called me a liar. I'm waiting for my apology, though I expect I shall be grey-haired and senile before that occurs.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

That's baiting right there. And in the worst way.

Edited August 15, 2010 by Its a MADHOUSE

[Kathryn41 3,205]

Baiting post and comments related to it removed. Yes, it was uncalled for and inappropriate.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

It's out of order that a mod would post that too, let alone a regular vj member.. It's clearly a drive by personal attack, making use of personal information from another thread to directly antagonise. Anyone else would probably get suspended for doing that.

Despicable.

[mox 298]

Baiting post and comments related to it removed. Yes, it was uncalled for and inappropriate.

And presumable some kind of action will be taken against the baiter, who basically called another VJ member a #######.

Haha I kill me.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Hmmmm

[Kathryn41 3,205]

Still unadressed is the fact that a VJ member said that I was giving out oral sex. The only apparent mod action was removal of the post. That statement was a direct, defamatory and obscene attack on an actual VJ member, namely me. I get suspended for posting a poem, one that I actually rate very highly, and which was not directed at any member at all. I posted in Latin not to circumvent the TOS but to present the original; in translation, without major orthographic gymnastics, capturing the metre is nigh on impossible. Furthermore, lines 2 and 11 contain nothing more shocking than what is seen in OT every single day. Every single day.

I posted it to point out how patently absurd it is that so-called obscenity gets censored with a heavy hand (I only expected it to be removed) whilst mod validation of hate speech seems to be okay. I'm half Hispanic. Do you even begin to comprehend how hurtful it is for me to read again and again that brown people are somehow deserving of ignominious death for crossing the border? The hate perpetrated against Muslms turns my stomach. Don't even start me on the rampant misogyny. Please. So remove the swears, and throw this issue into further relief.

You called me a liar. I'm waiting for my apology, though I expect I shall be grey-haired and senile before that occurs.

You obviously studied at a very, very progressive high school then. I studied Latin in High School as well, and yes we even studied Catullus, but Carmina 16 was definitely NOT on the curriculum, not just because of the language but because of the sexual acts it discusses. University is a different matter and I never doubted you worked on a translation at University. So,while I find myself astonished that a high school would address that particular poem, I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and apologize for my comment.

Regarding issues raised by you and Mags among others, I have repeated it many times already and I will repeat it again - yes, moderation on Visa Journey is definitely inconsistent. You will not find a single moderator to disagree with that. We KNOW it is inconsistent. We have also stated a number of times why it is inconsistent.

First, because yes there is always going to be a degree of subjectivity in what we do. We each work to the best of our abilities and our understandings reading over many reported mistakes, balancing context and content with the ultimate goal of VJ using the TOS as our 'tools'. Sometimes we do make mistakes but in many cases an action that one member will disagree and criticize us for taking, another will compliment and thank us. For every negative comment that is posted here, we virtually always receive a number of positive and supportive comments as well, often sent privately. The 'subjectivity' of the issues involved is not only in the eyes of the moderators but also in minds and eyes of those who are reading/reporting a thread., It is impossible to satisfy everyone and foolhardy to even try.

Another factor affecting 'consistency' is that for some people it very much depends on 'who' has made a comment about them. If person A says 'XXX" it's ok but if person B says "XXX" it is immediately offensive. For example, you complain that the VJ member who posted the comment about you giving oral sex only had the comment removed and was not suspended, yet when you someone you like posts something attributed to you only through their post and it contains a much more graphic 'sexual description' than the above removed innuendo, it apparently doesn't seem to bother you at all. Since 'consistency' is important to you, I probably need to go and remove all of those comments as well.

Second, (and yes, I know you have all heard it before and are tired of hearing it but that doesn't change the truth of the situation), we work based on reports. There are many threads that do not get reported - or one post gets reported and another one that really is a TOS violation doesn't - or a report comes in when there is no member of the mod team on line. So, some TOS violating comments are removed/addressed while others are not. If we were in sufficient numbers that the mod team was able to read each and every thread and each and every comment each and every time it posts then we would be able to address ALL of the TOS violations, especially when they first occur. Until that happens, then there are going to be threads that are overlooked and other threads that appear to have too much attention. That is the current reality and if you have any suggestions on how we can improve the situation, we would be happy to look at them.

Edited August 15, 2010 by Kathryn41

[Kathryn41 3,205]

And presumable some kind of action will be taken against the baiter, who basically called another VJ member a #######.

Haha I kill me.

Actually, you should read the link. You will find out Charles was doing nothing of the kind - merely adding additional information that he thought useful to the discussion, although it came across as an inappropriate comment.