divorce rate/mena/couples

[Mommy2ZaidnSalma 11]

Lal, LMFAO at 2nd or 3rds!

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

Of course it's true about compatibility and good intentions. my statement on MENA couples and added stresses assumed those were not issues.

also the issue of "uber" religious muslim male who expects... etc... is not what i am talking about either. obviously, an "uber" religious muslim male would not marry you if you were not "uber" religious also and wore Hijab etc. and if he did, then possibly it would be for immigration purposes and then that turns into an issue of is he really an "uber" religious muslim....

I'm not sure what your definition of "uber" religious is but just because someone's husband when they met and married is not attending Mosque, praying 5 times a day, dressing in a thobe, not sleeping thru the day and up all night during Ramadan, doing the extra prayers before and after regular prayers, reading Qur'an and reciting it, etc.... does not mean he will not become that way. We all have seen people here start to attend church more and more as they get older. Of course, he has every right to change how he lives his life and practices his religion, but this will also change how he views his wife and what SHE is doing. Not to point a finger at her, but in the way it effects HIM and his path to/with Allah.

I did not imagine this. Did you? Did you think about what would happen, what you would do if your man becomes uber religious? In christianity, if a man becomes uber christian, there are not the same big issues with the wives as there are in Islam... think about it.

the added problems, stress and issues in my mind when i posted this is the difference in culture, background, the basic things we are taught (sometimes unintentionally) of watching our parents and how they communicate and interact with one another when we are growing up, language barriers, little things said and done here that are affronts and offenses there, issues of parenting and the roles involved in that, issues of MENA males not finding jobs because we all know it's hard for them (and not because of their abilities or lack of experience) and becoming disenchanted with the land of enchantment... this is what i am talking about. I know that everyone has different experiences. But in general an american born citizen marrying a British/Australian etc. born citizen typically has a close enough cultural background that the differences aren't DIFFERENCES! if you get my meaning...

yes it's good and great and wonderful for everyone to discuss as much as possible about what they expect from their future husband/wife...what they imagine the roles to be... but it is hard to think of everything you should discuss. for example, my ex had no idea i did not think the same way as he did about some things in general and even though i tried to get him to discuss our roles and what we expected from one another, it just didn't occur to him that it needed to be discussed or that anyone would think differently. i'm not saying he's naive or narrowminded. i'm just saying it didn't occur to him. He used to tell me to stop "trying to be an american woman". lol

In a perfect world, we would discuss everything with each other and have everything worked out beforehand and "learn about each other properly before marriage". But, no perfect world here. Misunderstandings happen every minute of the day all over the world and how you handle them depends on your experience in the world, what you were taught and your personality.

And please don't think i'm lumping all MENA men together! I am not one of those women who blame all middle eastern/north african men for my one apple that had some worms inside! (and i certainly have some of those myself, we all do!) obviously i am not since i am trying again...

so anyway....

There is very little adoption or step parenting in mena. Many times when a girl divorces and needs to remarry, her kids go to her parents. Many of these young guys are ill equipped to parent and are in many ways babies themselves. In many ways a 30 year old in the US is much older than a guy who lives with his mom in lets say Morocco. I think even if someone means well, there are huge differences in how people marry over there and there s a huge emphasis on viriginity and chastity and the divides extend to lifestyles, parenting, male female roles, etc. What we consider domestic violence is not over there where your husband hitting you is just not that uncommon and takes place in the street. If a husband decides in Algeria or Tunisia that your child that they had with them is not leaving the country, they arent leaving. They are not members of the hague convention. There are huge differences between our cultures and yes some relationships work but mostly in my opinion, its because the mena person is really trying hard to make it work. The relationships can and do work but things that would cause divorce for many Americans have been overlooked by mena couples. Infidelity for instance is often overlooked and forgiven, where as we as Americans just dont put up with as much as many mena women would. We have alot more opportunity here as far as women go and we also have options when we lose our spouse. Many women cannot remarry when they are divorced there because no one wants to marry a woman with a child in some parts of mena. Yet in the US we have more latitude. I think the biggest mistake americans make is thinking that our values translate over there or confusing the fact that love is just not enough to over come some very huge differences...just food for thought....

[Mithra 1,185]

My husband is a great step dad and will take my children on outings and such when I'm working (if they're staying with us and he has the day off). He tells them he loves them and shows them affection. Keep in mind, there are exceptions to every rule and not all men are created equal, etc.

[100% Al Ahly Fan 53]

There is very little adoption or step parenting in mena. Many times when a girl divorces and needs to remarry, her kids go to her parents. Many of these young guys are ill equipped to parent and are in many ways babies themselves. In many ways a 30 year old in the US is much older than a guy who lives with his mom in lets say Morocco. I think even if someone means well, there are huge differences in how people marry over there and there s a huge emphasis on viriginity and chastity and the divides extend to lifestyles, parenting, male female roles, etc. What we consider domestic violence is not over there where your husband hitting you is just not that uncommon and takes place in the street. If a husband decides in Algeria or Tunisia that your child that they had with them is not leaving the country, they arent leaving. They are not members of the hague convention. There are huge differences between our cultures and yes some relationships work but mostly in my opinion, its because the mena person is really trying hard to make it work. The relationships can and do work but things that would cause divorce for many Americans have been overlooked by mena couples. Infidelity for instance is often overlooked and forgiven, where as we as Americans just dont put up with as much as many mena women would. We have alot more opportunity here as far as women go and we also have options when we lose our spouse. Many women cannot remarry when they are divorced there because no one wants to marry a woman with a child in some parts of mena. Yet in the US we have more latitude. I think the biggest mistake americans make is thinking that our values translate over there or confusing the fact that love is just not enough to over come some very huge differences...just food for thought....

I'm just curious where you get your numbers from exactly? Being a Middle Eastern women myself, I know of MANY step-parenting situations in my own family and many many others. Many of whom are wonderful fathers. And as for violence against women (which is not accepted in Islam or any where else that I am aware of) America has just as much and many women deal with it here just as they would over there, just sticking it out. Although, thankfully here in America we do have many opportunities for women to leave and move on when in that situation, where as women over in MENA may not always have this chance.

As for relationships working or not, yes people who chose to marry some from abroad have challenges but the divorce rate in the United States shows that Americans have numerous challenges as well. So whether it's a MENA person or not, different cultures always makes things colorful in any relationship, but when it comes down to it it depends on the people involved. So an American married to an American or an American married to some one from a different country (not just MENA) will have numerous challenges and yes it is up to all the parties involved regardless of where they are from on whethere they chose to make the relationship to work or not.

Edited July 27, 2010 by 100% Al Ahly Fan

[IncorrectPolitics 26]

I am married to a Lebanese man and he is very secular and and not very conservative. I on the other hand wear hijab and pray daily....my husband wants me to take hijab off, but it is not his business. I am a U.S. citizen and even lived in the same house with his mother for over a year. She and I never had a fight even after living together for so long and I am her favorite daughter in law, she even wants me to go have the child I am pregnant with now in Lebanon so she can take care of us afterwards. I would go if they gave better pain medicine after a cesarean in Lebanon, but I had a bad experience when I had a cesarean in Lebanon to have my daughter they sent me home with advil and didn't do much for pain in the hospital. All of her other daughter in laws which happen to be Lebanese argue with her, try to keep the grandchildren from her, and spend their husbands money in an out of control way. My husband and I do lock horns quite a bit because he does like to close his ears when a woman talks, but we get over it fast and are laughing within an hour. I think it just depends on the people, some people get married to soon for all of the wrong reasons so you can't just say it is because he is Arab and she is American. Look at the divorce rate of 2 Americans, it is high too.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

I'm just curious where you get your numbers from exactly? Being a Middle Eastern women myself, I know of MANY step-parenting situations in my own family and many many others. Many of whom are wonderful fathers. And as for violence against women (which is not accepted in Islam or any where else that I am aware of) America has just as much and many women deal with it here just as they would over there, just sticking it out. Although, thankfully here in America we do have many opportunities for women to leave and move on when in that situation, where as women over in MENA may not always have this chance.

As for relationships working or not, yes people who chose to marry some from abroad have challenges but the divorce rate in the United States shows that Americans have numerous challenges as well. So whether it's a MENA person or not, different cultures always makes things colorful in any relationship, but when it comes down to it it depends on the people involved. So an American married to an American or an American married to some one from a different country (not just MENA) will have numerous challenges and yes it is up to all the parties involved regardless of where they are from on whethere they chose to make the relationship to work or not.

I agree with some of the stuff you are saying but it is much more culturally accepted and overlooked by law enforcement than it is here.It may not be common place in your life but I personally witnessed it just walking down the street and no one did a thing on several occasions. Its culturally accepted and not prosecuted vigourously

Whats ironic is that some of the people from mena are filing VAWA charges against their American female spouses and using the laws of the US for their benefit. There is a poster married to a Turk on the other forum who is now a felon because she refused to lift conditions for her husband that came here on a k3. I hope to god she gets out of it

Here is a really good article from a UN study about domestic violence in Egypt

Mar 1st, 2010 | By Joseph Mayton

CAIRO: There is a pause as the coffee’s boiling comes to a stop. The conversation has turned toward this young man’s wife, who gave birth to their first child late last year. According to Hamdy, an office-boy at a Cairo-based NGO, when he came home from work one evening and saw his wife standing and chatting with their neighbors, he beat her.

“I don’t like to see her talking to our neighbors and I taught her that this is unacceptable,” he said. It is not uncommon for husbands to use physical violence against their spouses and is of growing concern for women’s activists and human rights groups in the country.

According to a recent report issued by the United Nations, the vast majority of Egyptian men view beating their wives as “their right.” The UN’s population council conducted the study of 15,000 young people in governorates across Egypt and discovered 80 percent of men and 67 percent of women agree that husbands are justified in beating their wife if she talks to other men.

It also uncovered what women’s advocates have told Bikya Masr are “scary” statistics. The study said that 8 percent of young men between the ages of 10- and 29-years-old said it was acceptable to beat their wife if she burned food. Some one-third of men surveyed added that they would beat their wives if she argued or refused to have sex with them.

The study also indicated that 73% of the youths did not discuss pubertal changes with their parents.

One comment on the Meedan – a social-networking website that publishes comments and articles in Arabic and English translation – wrote that “this is shameful. Abuse of one’s spouse is never justified.”

Marwa, a 33-year-old mother of two living in Cairo’s upscale Zamalek neighborhood, told Bikya Masr that her husband often slaps her when food is not prepared promptly or when she doesn’t feel like having sex that night.

Here is another article

http://www.irinnews.org/report.aspx?reportid=26139

CAIRO, 16 February 2006 (IRIN) - Despite the opening of the first safe-house for women in Cairo, few are choosing to leave their abusive marriages due to the social stigma and financial insecurity they would face. Oum Mohammed was married when she was 16. “From the day I married him, he hit me over matters big and small,” she says of her husband. “He told me that all women should be beaten. I didn’t protest because I was afraid he’d throw me and my children into the street,” she adds. “I’d seen my father hit my mother, and in every house in the alley a man hits a woman.” Oum Mohammed’s story is just one of 700 case studies that the Association for the Development and Enhancement of Women (ADEW), a local NGO, has collected over the past several years. Hearing stories like these convinced ADEW that there was an urgent need for a shelter for women who are victims of violence. According to the NGO, domestic abuse is common in Egypt. A 2001 survey conducted in low-income neighbourhoods found that 96 percent of women had been beaten at least once by their husbands. Such violence is often condoned by society, or even by the victims, experts say. A majority of the women surveyed in a government study, for example, said a husband had the right to beat his wife if she talked to him disrespectfully, talked to another man, spent too much money or refused her husband sex. If a woman goes to the police station to report domestic abuse, the police adopt “the cultural perspective that the man has the right to do it”, says ADEW officer Bahira El-Gohary. Men convicted of domestic violence in Egypt face sentences ranging from monetary fines to three years in prison. According to Nihad al-Qumsan, head of the Egyptian Centre for Women’s Rights, however, “most of the time, judges give low penalties”. Obtaining a divorce, meanwhile, even in marriages where there is physical abuse, can be a long and costly procedure. The fundamental problem is that most women have nowhere to go in the event that they leave their husbands. They face the economic difficulty of supporting themselves and their children, as well as the social stigma of living without a man. The families and neighbours of such women often encourage them to return to their husbands. The ADEW shelter was set up to offer them an alternative. “This has never been done before,” says ADEW Director Iman Bibars. According to women’s rights groups, there are no other public or private shelters for women escaping abusive relationships in Egypt, and only a few across the entire Middle East. But bringing about the ground-breaking project hasn’t been easy. “We’ve had very many problems with the opening of the shelter,” admits Azza Salah, head of the project. While it has taken time to raise funds and find trained medical staff, ADEW officials say the greatest obstacle has been the women’s own fear of leaving their homes. “We’re facing taboo issues: women sleeping outside the home and staying away from their families,” says El-Gohary. “Most of the women express their fears about how society would view them and whether it would accept them back.” Salah says that many women think “if they leave the house, their husbands will take another woman”. According to al-Qumsan, women also have reservations about the shelter’s capacity to provide for them once they have left their husbands. For a shelter to work, she says, it has to provide “a complete solution,” which means “helping a woman to become more independent, find a job, feed herself and her kids and find her own house”. This is what ADEW’s “House of Eve” hopes to do. Located at an undisclosed location in the capital, the shelter offers counselling, medical check-ups, job training, literacy classes and legal advice. If they choose to, about 20 women can live at the shelter with their children for up to three months. Upon leaving, they are given small loans as part of a micro-credit programme. For now, women from some of Cairo’s poorest neighbourhoods are coming to the shelter to attend classes and talk to counsellors. But none of them have taken the step of moving into the House of Eve fulltime. Any woman “is most welcome to come,” says El-Gohary. “But…we can’t force her to come,” she adds. “It’s not an easy decision to take.”

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

I'm just curious where you get your numbers from exactly? Being a Middle Eastern women myself, I know of MANY step-parenting situations in my own family and many many others. Many of whom are wonderful fathers. And as for violence against women (which is not accepted in Islam or any where else that I am aware of) America has just as much and many women deal with it here just as they would over there, just sticking it out. Although, thankfully here in America we do have many opportunities for women to leave and move on when in that situation, where as women over in MENA may not always have this chance.

As for relationships working or not, yes people who chose to marry some from abroad have challenges but the divorce rate in the United States shows that Americans have numerous challenges as well. So whether it's a MENA person or not, different cultures always makes things colorful in any relationship, but when it comes down to it it depends on the people involved. So an American married to an American or an American married to some one from a different country (not just MENA) will have numerous challenges and yes it is up to all the parties involved regardless of where they are from on whethere they chose to make the relationship to work or not.

And while step parenting may be common in your circle, in many mena areas, when a husband divorces his wife, all he has to do is send her packing to her parents with the kids and thats it. If she is lower middle class it will be very hard to remarry, especially not being a virgin and with kids, the wealthier the girl and family , the more freedom for education and lifestyle choices. We can say anything that we want, but thats why you see US citizen arab men who are in their 40s and 50s bringing girls in their 20s and 30s here and I have never seen one with kids brought here. Why, when there are alot of women who want to be married that are not encumbered? Yes there are nice people blah blah but you have to admit that our choices as Americans are much much better as far as no stigma with kids or marriages divorce etc. There is not the societal stigma here like there is there and women can easily go to the police and get shelter and help for their kids. There is very little structure there for battered women and even less for women who have children out of wedlock, hence the hundreds and hundreds of orphanages in places like Morocco where sex is plentiful but illegitamate children are not wanted or taken care of. In fact the Moroccan government just expelled a bunch of westerners sheltering these kids from the street because they were accused of evangelising. I know people are not the same but there is just not the same level of compassion for orphaned or abandoned children there and if there were not NGOS there in both Egypt and Morocco, the level of child explotation would be much greater . There is very little recource for a poor battered or abandoned woman in mena

[Olive♥ 2]

My Hubby and I are still together. We married in november 2007 in Morocco and he's been here in the states for 1 1/2 years. I know that it is probably his respectful, mild temperment that helps keep things smooth for us. I mean no matter what happens, misunderstandings, cultural differences blah blah blah ...nothing escalates into a huge fight because he never gets mean or angry. We are lucky I think. I still check in here (VJ) from time to time but I don't see anyone from out time line back in 07-08. Hope they are still happy Olive

[~PalmTreeGurl~ 154]

My Hubby and I are still together. We married in november 2007 in Morocco and he's been here in the states for 1 1/2 years. I know that it is probably his respectful, mild temperment that helps keep things smooth for us. I mean no matter what happens, misunderstandings, cultural differences blah blah blah ...nothing escalates into a huge fight because he never gets mean or angry. We are lucky I think. I still check in here (VJ) from time to time but I don't see anyone from out time line back in 07-08. Hope they are still happy Olive

Adam and I are still on VJ, still happily together- and just hit 4 yrs of marriage!

[New Beginnings 32]

Oh for crying out loud. Yes there are dumbasses in MENA, yes there are dumbasses everywhere else in the world.

Hanging In There: Yes there are issues in MENA countries, yes there are issues with SOME men from MENA countries. But the same can be said about EVERYWHERE else. I've personally seen several American men who are controlling and abusive towards their wives and who see that abuse as something that they are entitled to do. I've seen WIVES who are controlling and abusive with their husbands because they aren't doing everything their wife wants them to do.

It's so frustrating to sit here and see the back and forth on "well maybe in your circle you see this, but in my circle I see this". What that should tell you is that clearly everyone has different experiences which should then tell you that it happens everywhere.

And I have to say, if there is a man and woman who are divorced and the man tries to take their child out of America without permission that would definitely not be ok. It wouldn't even be ok if they were married. It's not a MENA only law that prohibits parents from taking children without permission. I know a couple who was divorced with 3 kids, the man and woman lived in different states and the kids were being abused by their mom. He heard about it and went and picked the kids up and was taking them to his house so they could be safe. He just crossed state lines and was put in jail for almost a year for kidnapping his own kids from their abusive mother.

Wow... I wonder what conclusion I should draw from that story... Let me think... In my cirlce I've only heard of that happening from 1 person and he was American and so was his ex-wife... I guess I should say that the rate of women who abuse their kids is higher in America and I should also believe that the American government isn't protecting children. Or should I believe that this instance is sadly only one of hundreds or thousands that occur every minute around the entire world?

[Jenn! 918]

Of course domestic violence is not exclusive to one area of the world. I don't think that Kat was suggesting anything of the kind. But I don't think you can ignore the fact that the laws and services available to battered women are not equal. Not to mention that generally speaking, domestic violence rates increase with the poverty level (this is not to say that high income families don't experience domestic violence issues!). And poverty is more pervasive in Morocco, say, than the US.

That said, all of this is really quite the tangent and has nothing to do with the OP.

[sandinista! 1,816]

Of course domestic violence is not exclusive to one area of the world. I don't think that Kat was suggesting anything of the kind. But I don't think you can ignore the fact that the laws and services available to battered women are not equal. Not to mention that generally speaking, domestic violence rates increase with the poverty level (this is not to say that high income families don't experience domestic violence issues!). And poverty is more pervasive in Morocco, say, than the US.

That said, all of this is really quite the tangent and has nothing to do with the OP.

i take issue with this statement, only because of whose comment it is we're talking about. on everything else you said though, i think yr golden.

but i do think it's entirely possible for the pendulum to swing way too far on the other side. "teen mom" and "girls gone wild: sorority house edition" don't exactly fill me up with warm, fuzzy feelings of cultural and moral superiority.

[caybee 21]

Adam and I are still on VJ, still happily together- and just hit 4 yrs of marriage!

Three years married for us, after the K-1 journey. Still chugging along

[IncorrectPolitics 26]

i take issue with this statement, only because of whose comment it is we're talking about. on everything else you said though, i think yr golden.

but i do think it's entirely possible for the pendulum to swing way too far on the other side. "teen mom" and "girls gone wild: sorority house edition" don't exactly fill me up with warm, fuzzy feelings of cultural and moral superiority.

I do agree these shows are just horrible. I remember when they used to show Maury Povich and Jerry Springer on the TV in Beirut. I always felt the need to explain to them that Jerry Springer pays these people to act like that and if it is true that these are very extreme cases and not the norm. It really is humiliating when people from another country see these programs on TV.

[msheesha 548]

i take issue with this statement, only because of whose comment it is we're talking about. on everything else you said though, i think yr golden.

but i do think it's entirely possible for the pendulum to swing way too far on the other side. "teen mom" and "girls gone wild: sorority house edition" don't exactly fill me up with warm, fuzzy feelings of cultural and moral superiority.

Amen on the overblown cultural and moral superiority. With regard to the snippet of the woman in the article being beaten in from of her neighbors and noone doing anything, Hanging in There and anyone else clinging to feelings of moral and cultural superiority must not have watched those 20/20 John Stossel specials where a woman was getting jacked up by her boyfriend/husband in a restaurant, in a park, etc and most of the men (American, don't ya know?!) walked by and did nothing. Others (American females) in the restaurant complained and asked that they BOTH be kicked out of the restaurant and speculated about what the woman had done to DESERVE being treated in an abusive manner.

With those having delusions of America providing security and protection to domestic abuse victims who leave their abusers, look at these statistics....

One study revealed that half of the homicides of female spouses and partners were committed by men after separation from batterers (Barbara Hart, Remarks to the Task Force on Child Abuse and Neglect, April 1992)

Battered women seek medical attention for injuries sustained as a consequence of domestic violence significantly more often after separation than during cohabitation; about 75% of the visits to emergency rooms by battered women occur after separation (Stark and Flitcraft, 1988).

Women who leave their batterers are at 75% greater risk of severe injury or death than those who stay. Source: Barbara Hart, National Coalition Against Domestic Violence, 1988.