divorce rate/mena/couples

[Karonya and Adel 8]

I believe it depends more on how compatible a couple is (in every aspect) than whether or not one of the components is MENA. Also, whether or not both parties entered into the marriage with good intentions (not seeking immigration only).

About added stresses, etc. Although we all can't avoid the stress of immigration we can avoid the stress of marrying someone who is completely different than ourselves. For example, if I were to marry an uber religious Muslim man who expected an obedient wife who was religious and dressed the part, etc. I would be setting myself up for disaster. Trouble is many women enter into a marriage with someone who has impossible expectations of them thus the stress, fighting, etc. Love is not enough alone.

Of course it's true about compatibility and good intentions. my statement on MENA couples and added stresses assumed those were not issues.

also the issue of "uber" religious muslim male who expects... etc... is not what i am talking about either. obviously, an "uber" religious muslim male would not marry you if you were not "uber" religious also and wore Hijab etc. and if he did, then possibly it would be for immigration purposes and then that turns into an issue of is he really an "uber" religious muslim....

I'm not sure what your definition of "uber" religious is but just because someone's husband when they met and married is not attending Mosque, praying 5 times a day, dressing in a thobe, not sleeping thru the day and up all night during Ramadan, doing the extra prayers before and after regular prayers, reading Qur'an and reciting it, etc.... does not mean he will not become that way. We all have seen people here start to attend church more and more as they get older. Of course, he has every right to change how he lives his life and practices his religion, but this will also change how he views his wife and what SHE is doing. Not to point a finger at her, but in the way it effects HIM and his path to/with Allah.

I did not imagine this. Did you? Did you think about what would happen, what you would do if your man becomes uber religious? In christianity, if a man becomes uber christian, there are not the same big issues with the wives as there are in Islam... think about it.

the added problems, stress and issues in my mind when i posted this is the difference in culture, background, the basic things we are taught (sometimes unintentionally) of watching our parents and how they communicate and interact with one another when we are growing up, language barriers, little things said and done here that are affronts and offenses there, issues of parenting and the roles involved in that, issues of MENA males not finding jobs because we all know it's hard for them (and not because of their abilities or lack of experience) and becoming disenchanted with the land of enchantment... this is what i am talking about. I know that everyone has different experiences. But in general an american born citizen marrying a British/Australian etc. born citizen typically has a close enough cultural background that the differences aren't DIFFERENCES! if you get my meaning...

yes it's good and great and wonderful for everyone to discuss as much as possible about what they expect from their future husband/wife...what they imagine the roles to be... but it is hard to think of everything you should discuss. for example, my ex had no idea i did not think the same way as he did about some things in general and even though i tried to get him to discuss our roles and what we expected from one another, it just didn't occur to him that it needed to be discussed or that anyone would think differently. i'm not saying he's naive or narrowminded. i'm just saying it didn't occur to him. He used to tell me to stop "trying to be an american woman". lol

In a perfect world, we would discuss everything with each other and have everything worked out beforehand and "learn about each other properly before marriage". But, no perfect world here. Misunderstandings happen every minute of the day all over the world and how you handle them depends on your experience in the world, what you were taught and your personality.

And please don't think i'm lumping all MENA men together! I am not one of those women who blame all middle eastern/north african men for my one apple that had some worms inside! (and i certainly have some of those myself, we all do!) obviously i am not since i am trying again...

so anyway....

Edited July 23, 2010 by Karonya and Adel

[LaL 418]

Of course it's true about compatibility and good intentions. my statement on MENA couples and added stresses assumed those were not issues.

So - in asking how successful MENA marriages are you don't want to factor in those who seem compatible or seem to have good intentions? So really, in other words you are asking - of those who seem "mismatched" in any way - how many of those were successful?

Am I misunderstanding?

[Karonya and Adel 8]

So - in asking how successful MENA marriages are you don't want to factor in those who seem compatible or seem to have good intentions? So really, in other words you are asking - of those who seem "mismatched" in any way - how many of those were successful?

Am I misunderstanding?

yes you are misunderstanding and i'm not sure why what i said makes you think that. i did not say anything in my original post about leaving anyone in or out of the factoring. my response you have quoted was to the quote i was responding to, that in my statement in my original post, the added stresses/problems/issues i was talking about in MENA marriages were not incompatibility or immigration purposes only.

[And_Sam 44]

I agree with Je veux and LaL~

I kind of figured that when people seem to drift off it's because they are adjusting to new levels of their relationship not because divorce or anything.

I do agree though it is a big adjustment once your SO gets here and with any relationship there are ups and downs. That's when you talk to friends in "private". Too many times I have seen somebody post something personal and get all kinds of reactions that are good and not so good, to put it nicely!

[Mithra 1,185]

Hmm what if my husband becomes very religious? Well I guess I'll cross that bridge if and when we get to it. As of now, it's not even close to happening, thank goodness. My point was, a lot of people willingly and mindfully go into mismatched marriages. I felt I was compatible with my husband even though we came from different backgrounds. I didn't marry someone I wanted to change and he didn't marry someone he wanted to change. We see that a lot in this forum. The overnight changes in some of the wives in order to accomodate their husbands but then they can't keep up that charade for long and things fall apart. My husband and I are compatible intellectually (although I think I'm the smart one, lol), spiritually/religiously (or lack thereof), of similar age, of similar economic background (he's from a working class family, I'm from a working class family), similar in physical appearance (neither of us is gorgeous, neither of us is an ogre either), etc. You get the point. I didn't marry a young, hot guy from a poor family who is uneducated that I can't carry on a conversation with and therefore, could never have anything in common with. My husband isn't a slave to MENA culture. He doesn't require only mid eastern food and he doesn't have to only listen to Arabic music and watch Arabic TV, etc. He's open minded and has adapted to the US quite nicely. We have had hard times due to him finding work but we worked through it. I don't know if I consider our marriage "successful". We're content mostly and just living life. But that's just one example. Maybe others can share their examples and we can answer your question.

You're talking about stresses regarding culture clash, religion clash, etc., correct?

yes you are misunderstanding and i'm not sure why what i said makes you think that. i did not say anything in my original post about leaving anyone in or out of the factoring. my response you have quoted was to the quote i was responding to, that in my statement in my original post, the added stresses/problems/issues i was talking about in MENA marriages were not incompatibility or immigration purposes only.

[Karonya and Adel 8]

Agreed. a lot of people do that yes, everywhere, not just MENA couples and not just people who have spouses/fiance/fiancee's from overseas. When i said stress/problems/issues others don't have, i meant background cultural and otherwise yes. I think religious clashes come later in marriage, if they do come at all.

And my ex-husband was not a slave to MENA culture either. He did not require food music tv either. But eventually he became that way (i'm not saying yours will!!) over years of marriage, not the first 12/24/48/60 months. We were married for 9 years. I wasn't really intending for this to get into a discussion of specific things that can go wrong in MENA marriages, but now that we are here, it seems to be turning out very interesting! Don't get me wrong, i never intend to say that they are all the same or that everyone fits into one category. But there are generalities in common to our marriages i think.

I can always be wrong!

[Karonya and Adel 8]

I agree with Je veux and LaL~

I kind of figured that when people seem to drift off it's because they are adjusting to new levels of their relationship not because divorce or anything.

I do agree though it is a big adjustment once your SO gets here and with any relationship there are ups and downs. That's when you talk to friends in "private". Too many times I have seen somebody post something personal and get all kinds of reactions that are good and not so good, to put it nicely!

you have positive attitude and also agree about the private thing. I think if you post personal things here, you can't really say boo hoo about the responses you get in return that you might not like

[And_Sam 44]

Agreed. a lot of people do that yes, everywhere, not just MENA couples and not just people who have spouses/fiance/fiancee's from overseas. When i said stress/problems/issues others don't have, i meant background cultural and otherwise yes. I think religious clashes come later in marriage, if they do come at all.

And my ex-husband was not a slave to MENA culture either. He did not require food music tv either. But eventually he became that way (i'm not saying yours will!!) over years of marriage, not the first 12/24/48/60 months. We were married for 9 years. I wasn't really intending for this to get into a discussion of specific things that can go wrong in MENA marriages, but now that we are here, it seems to be turning out very interesting! Don't get me wrong, i never intend to say that they are all the same or that everyone fits into one category. But there are generalities in common to our marriages i think.

I can always be wrong!

Well my husband is going the opposite way I guess... At first he took time out for "breaks" several times a day regardless of what was going on. He still does his prayers but now he goes into the bedroom for privacy and does it.

When he first got here, he would have a "fit" if I served more than one dish of food on one plate AND we all had to sit on the living room floor on pillows. Now it's ok if we do sit on the couch or even at the kitchen table for dinner and fix our plates straight out of the cooking pans! I like to think that it's a compromise between the both us. Isn't that what a marriage is about? Making a life that both of you can live with!

Finding work is still a hard thing. It's true, it doesn't matter how competent they are, or how well they speak english, a good job is pretty scarce, but then it is for everyone....

[Mithra 1,185]

I believe anyone can change in time regardless of where they come from. Life and marriage is unpredictable. The only weird quirk my husband had upon arriving to the US was the need to keep tabs on me as if I were a child. When he saw how much it bothered me and how it affected our relationship, he stopped. He has told me that he does treat me differently than he would had he an Egyptian wife. He believes he would be "harder" on an Egyptian wife. Whatever that means.

[Karonya and Adel 8]

Well my husband is going the opposite way I guess... At first he took time out for "breaks" several times a day regardless of what was going on. He still does his prayers but now he goes into the bedroom for privacy and does it.

When he first got here, he would have a "fit" if I served more than one dish of food on one plate AND we all had to sit on the living room floor on pillows. Now it's ok if we do sit on the couch or even at the kitchen table for dinner and fix our plates straight out of the cooking pans! I like to think that it's a compromise between the both us. Isn't that what a marriage is about? Making a life that both of you can live with!

Finding work is still a hard thing. It's true, it doesn't matter how competent they are, or how well they speak english, a good job is pretty scarce, but then it is for everyone....

Absolutely it is about compromise! and i've very happy you and yours can do that. i wish you much happiness and joy in the coming years of your marriage!

[Mithra 1,185]

Karonya, do you believe your divorce was due to cultural/religious stressors? Not to be intrusive, just curious because of the topic.

[Karonya and Adel 8]

I believe anyone can change in time regardless of where they come from. Life and marriage is unpredictable. The only weird quirk my husband had upon arriving to the US was the need to keep tabs on me as if I were a child. When he saw how much it bothered me and how it affected our relationship, he stopped. He has told me that he does treat me differently than he would had he an Egyptian wife. He believes he would be "harder" on an Egyptian wife. Whatever that means.

Maybe he means that he would be harder on Egyptian wife because she would understand and have grown up with the same rules of marriage. He can't exactly hold you responsible for those rules if you don't know and agree with them.

I think it's wonderful that he listened to your feelings about what he was doing and stopped. Of course in the end it all comes down to who that person is and how mature they are. To you too i wish much happiness and long lasting marriage!

[Mithra 1,185]

It could be (about the rules and such). I understand them however, he's aware that's not my style.

[Karonya and Adel 8]

Karonya, do you believe your divorce was due to cultural/religious stressors? Not to be intrusive, just curious because of the topic.

I think that was the beginning of it. we had some issues in the very beginning that had to do with language and cultural roles of women. we worked through those (i thought) but then i think he began to regret not marrying someone that understood without being told what her "traditional" role was, and in the end just fell apart but at the same time became very religious and began to force that on me. it made life very hard to constantly be hammered about changing my religion every day. and when i say every day, i do mean every day. i think his background and family upbringing/training and being treated by his family as "king" which he certainly was, made it impossible for him to compromise with me. he ended up doing some things that made him the ultimate hypocrite in Islam. so, his upbringing played a big big role i believe, in that he felt he was boss and that was that. he wasn't that way when i met him (maybe he was and hid it?) or for the first 5 or 6 years. but in the end, it came down to him being a weak person and not able to view himself with honesty and possibly not have cared enough about me to try. I dunno... just my hindsight view of things and i certainly made some mistakes, of course, but i was willing to work on myself and adjust to what he needed. it takes two to make marriage work and he wasn't willing, so there ya go, i think i rambled a lot, hope it makes sense

[CasandraYounes 0]

From an academic standpoint concerning MENA marriages to American citizens. there are tons of research articles out there. To give a specific number would be tricky. For my thesis, I conducted research on women that had married Muslim men from various countries and what I obtained was not appalling, but the reasons and stats were pretty much based on acculturation/assimilation, conversion/expectations, known barriers,etc. In my study, out of 1000 married couples, it was found that 63% of women married to Muslim men from various countries were more likely to experience a separation or divorce within the first five years. Although this was just a small sample, you could see where I'm going, but still even with a sample the stats are tricky. Based on what I see here on VJ, I would agree with others that it would be 50/50 for new couples. I don't really see many older couples pop it, sometimes the updates are good and bad though. Like you said it really depends on a lot of issues. I can understand why those that have been divorced would stop posting. Like others have said, it could be not needing VJ, being ashamed and various other things. I think that you have a lot of courage to share what you have concerning your marriage because it is not easy. I feel that you are right in that, in your situation, people change and expectations change and that is often what leads to divorce in certain situations, cultures, and marriages.

I always thought that cultural and religious issues would be a big one, but being on VJ I have come to realize that there are a lot of them. My husband and I just celebrated our 2 year anniversary a few weeks ago and I am greatful. We have discussed everything from roles of women, religion, and cultural issues. Although we do clash sometimes, he knows where I am not willing to change. I grew up with my father being a very strict Muslim, although I did not live with him, I knew his expectations. The way my father is and the way my husband is are two different extremes. Now, with time, I am sure that people will change and perhaps my husband may grow to be a little more pious, but we have discussed that. At first, my husband was uncomfortable with me coming home really late (at night) from classes or going out at night without him, but he understood that my schedule was something I could not help and he just had to be understanding. He was surprised at how busy and independent I was, but did not realize how much help I needed to maintain things. After we fought about it and worked it out, he was able to see that the role he was used to needed to be adjusted. I can say that my husband is a little different from some MENA men in that in his house roles were somewhat untraditional in that both his parents worked and chores were shared equally. From extended family members, it was expected that everyone knew their place and tradition. With that said, I appreciate everything that he does for me. Our marriage is not perfect, but we are happy and willing to compromise where we are and in the future. With any couple and just being married to someone from another country can be challenge. The visa process is tough, but adjusting to each other here is harder.