My Vietnamese girlfriend and me need help

[Kevin and 10]

Ok, I am following the steps on this site to prepare the marriage application:

http://www.vietnamembassy.us/consular_services/marry_a_vietnamese/

I have questions that I'm trying to clarify:

1) By completing the steps on that website and sending my documents to the VN Embassy before going to VN, it is my understanding that it will shave off the time it takes the marriage to go through when I am actually in VN and the papers get submitted to the justice center - is that correct?

2) My girl is saying that it will take about 10 days to get an interview after we hand in the papers, but a poster here said that they got their interview the next day after they submitted their papers. Is there a typical time frame for getting an interview after submitting the papers in VN?

I'm trying to get an idea of how long I will have to stay in VN...after talking to my girl it's looking like I will be spending the better part of a month there. Not all bad, more time with the love of my life...but I cannot forgo my obligations in the states for too long.

In my experience dealing with the VN Government you never know how long it will take. You could get in and out quick or have to go back 3 days in a row. We had to go to the Govt Office 3 times before they accepted our paperwork. Each time saying we needed some other paperwork. The third time we gave them some coffee money.

We got married in May and I had to go back to VN in July to sign the book. We were told 1 month.

Plan on trying to get it all done while you are there, but have arrangements to go back a month or two later.

[Dau Que 6]

If I marry a person, regardless of their nationality, then the US government should HAVE to allow us to live together. Fraud is going to happen no matter what and just like gun control, these ridiculous hoops do nothing to solve the problem since the people who have illegal intent will find a way and the people who marry legitimately are the only ones who really suffer for it. Did it occur to anyone that all the fraud is a result of unreasonable difficulty entering the USA, or not being able to return after you leave? If people could enter and leave with little restriction, and could do so LEGALLY, then why would anyone bother committing fraud? As for the girls who take advantage of men to escape VN or for money...well...that's really most women. Plenty of American women do the same thing, but you can get married in Vegas within a few mins. What happens between the man and the woman, whether the marriage is a sham or not, is really none of the government's business nor should they be meddling in peoples' personal affairs like that. If two consenting adults decided to get married for WHATEVER reason, as long as there is some document that shows they are legally married that should be the extent of it, along with reasonable criminal background checks and medical tests.

The way the process is now, it's flawed and highly unconstitutional. Since it is conducted by the US, and I am a US Citizen, there are solid grounds for taking action against these screwed up policies. It's just a matter of enough people being motivated to take a concerted effort.

Please enlighten me and the VJ's audience what part of the Bill of rights was/were violated? Should we chip in the $$$ the hire a berry-good attorney to file a class-action lawsuit against the US gov't now? Me first! I'll volunteer to be the first to donate $100!

I'm absolutely outraged! How dare they treat me as a good US citizen like dat? Don't make me mad and renounce my citizenship and stop paying taxes! This could be a devastating huge loss of revenue to the US gov't!

Edited July 31, 2010 by Dau Que

[BinhJerome 14]

Please enlighten me and the VJ's audience what part of the Bill of rights was/were violated? Should we chip in the $$$ the hire a berry-good attorney to file a class-action lawsuit against the US gov't now? Me first! I'll volunteer to be the first to donate $100!

I'm absolutely outraged! How dare they treat me as a good US citizen like dat? Don't make me mad and renounce my citizenship and stop paying taxes! This could be a devastating huge loss of revenue to the US gov't!

I think you need to pay better attention to the forum and possibly stop being so critical all the time, there is currently a class action lawsuit going on, and it is the due process denial of the petitioner (USC) it was filed in June, and it has always been my and my lawyers argument all along. This is for K1 visa petitions and not CR1. I do not know how long you struggled, or how your petition turned out, and quite frankly I really don’t care. I know that mine was a denial and yes it pissed me off for quite a long time but I hope that I have never acted like you have been acting in this forum, you have pin pointed me out and others with your ranting and raving about what Vietnamese women do and don’t want. I hope for you and your partner’s sake that one day you will wake up and realize that life might not always be fare but no matter what happened to you in the past or is happening to you, this does not mean it will happen to Frank, John, Jason, or Joe Schmo for that matter. If you stay in a hateful and vindictive mood you will miss good things that that are happening right around you at this very moment, but again this is your choice to let anger and hatred cloud your view.

To the OP, yes if you can do things before you get there it will save time, and any time counts, as for how soon after you submit all the paperwork you will get an interview set up it really depends on how busy they are and if you are willing to pass a few bucks to help things along. You can do everything accept for the mental test, so if show up in Vietnam on a Thursday night, and go to Chao Ray Friday morning, then to the Vietnamese department of Justice on Friday as well, you might get lucky and get an interview the next week, then at your interview if you once again try to speed things up you might be able to get the license ready to sign the following week, but what I would recommend for you to do is to have all your paperwork go through a person that charges to do this, If you have it all done, pay him $25 or $50 to just make sure you have what you need before you land minus of course the Chao Ray slip, this way as others have said you don’t have to go back and forth 2 or more times. This is my advice, but even with this advice if you show up and the person taking the papers has a wild hair up his butt then you could be delayed, or if your speed up money is to little or too much that could also hurt, but it could also help and you could be in and out. Just as anything I say it is for you to choose what to and not to use or do as you are the one sleeping with your actions or inactions. Good Luck Jerome and Binh

[Mr. 2000 0]

Please enlighten me and the VJ's audience what part of the Bill of rights was/were violated? Should we chip in the $$$ the hire a berry-good attorney to file a class-action lawsuit against the US gov't now? Me first! I'll volunteer to be the first to donate $100!

I'm absolutely outraged! How dare they treat me as a good US citizen like dat? Don't make me mad and renounce my citizenship and stop paying taxes! This could be a devastating huge loss of revenue to the US gov't!

The US government is in place on the basis of "By the people, FOR the people". It's not there to serve its own interests or agenda...once it does, it's no longer a democracy. If you think that the current immigration policies of the US are "fine as they are" then you don't need to lift a finger and you can keep your $100. I'm still waiting for someone to show any compelling evidence to justify the current US-VN immigration policies. All the VN terrorists? No. All the VN wives coming here to go on welfare? No. All the VN people coming here to "steal our jobs"? No. Most VN nationals like their country and would return there to live if they knew they could enter and exit the USA without these ridiculous impediments. The notion that the USA would be overrun by migrants if we made our policies flexible and reasonable is a joke. Our excessive social programs that allow for too much abuse are not an issue with immigration - they are an issue of public policy.

To the OP, yes if you can do things before you get there it will save time, and any time counts, as for how soon after you submit all the paperwork you will get an interview set up it really depends on how busy they are and if you are willing to pass a few bucks to help things along. You can do everything accept for the mental test, so if show up in Vietnam on a Thursday night, and go to Chao Ray Friday morning, then to the Vietnamese department of Justice on Friday as well, you might get lucky and get an interview the next week, then at your interview if you once again try to speed things up you might be able to get the license ready to sign the following week, but what I would recommend for you to do is to have all your paperwork go through a person that charges to do this, If you have it all done, pay him $25 or $50 to just make sure you have what you need before you land minus of course the Chao Ray slip, this way as others have said you don’t have to go back and forth 2 or more times. This is my advice, but even with this advice if you show up and the person taking the papers has a wild hair up his butt then you could be delayed, or if your speed up money is to little or too much that could also hurt, but it could also help and you could be in and out. Just as anything I say it is for you to choose what to and not to use or do as you are the one sleeping with your actions or inactions. Good Luck Jerome and Binh

Let me see if I understood you correctly - for the documents I send to the VN embassy in the US, I can omit the "mental exam" document and just get that done when I am in VN? The website seems to imply that I need to send all of the documents listed, but it seems like most people end up having to take the mental exam in VN even if they do get a "pass" in the usa.

Anyway, got a few more Q's:

- They want a "notarized" copy of my passport. So should I just copy my passport, take that copy to a notary and sign it or are they expecting something else?

- In a previous post you said that I could speed things up if I pay...so I asked my girl about that and she said that they won't accept any money to make things go faster. So who exactly would I pay to speed things up? Or is it simply a matter of slipping a little extra cash and a wink along with the documents?

- My girl got an "application for marriage" document from the justice center in VN, filled out her side, and mailed it to me. I'm planning to submit that one instead of the bilingual PDF from the website. The forms are a little different, as the VN form wants pictures that are 3x4cm whereas the PDF asks for 2x2 inches. I stapled 3x4cm pictures onto it, and the website does not say it is required for me to notarize this form. Am I missing anything here?

One last thing that I have been discussing with my girl is hiring a lawyer to handle our I-130 petition once we get to that point. Is there a benefit to hiring a lawyer and paying the associated fees as opposed to going at it on our own...or should we hold off on a lawyer unless we run into problems, such as a denial at the interview? Are there any good lawyers who specialize in dealing with the US embassy in VN that will not cost me all of my limbs?

[ScottThuy 140]

Its not uncommon for employees working at the justice center or most government offices for that matter to take coffee money to speed things up or to make things happen... Hoi Lo.... Ask your girl if she has ever heard of it and what it can make happen...

Here is a previous topic on the marriage details you are looking for...

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/topic/239718-wedding-in-vietnam/page__p__3674695#entry3674695

[Teacher Mark 53]

Let me see if I understood you correctly - for the documents I send to the VN embassy in the US, I can omit the "mental exam" document and just get that done when I am in VN? The website seems to imply that I need to send all of the documents listed, but it seems like most people end up having to take the mental exam in VN even if they do get a "pass" in the usa.

That appears to be the case. I haven't known anyone in the 3 years that I have been posting here that has not had to have it done in Vietnam.

Here's another thread. I wrote a little about my experience in this one.

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/topic/153347-marriage-in-vietnam/

[ttp 0]

I dunno if you can "omit" the mental exam over here, since it seems to be included in the necessary documents for marrying a Vietnamese. I can assure you, however, that they will not accept it and you WILL have to have another one done in VN.

You could try giving the Embassy a call and ask them, though I doubt if you'll talk to somebody who knows what they're talking about. I called twice to confirm the fees, and got two different answers.

[ttp 0]

Also, the notarized photocopy of your passport is just that. I had a lawyer notarize it while I was downtown at the Clerk of Court getting the Certificate of No Marriage.

The lawyer told me it was kind of unusual, but he wrote a little note saying I appeared before him, yada yada yada, on the photocopy and then notarized it.

He didn't even charge me after I told him about all the hassle I was going through for just the marriage paperwork.

I recently did the whole I-130 thing by myself, again with A LOT of research, reading this forum and reading the FAQs. The lawyer who does it around here would have charged me ~$2000, that's IF there were no complications. It's cheaper to do it yourself, as long as you are informed, well prepared and careful. I warn you though, doing it myself caused me a lot of stress, but not along the lines of $2000 worth.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

The US government is in place on the basis of "By the people, FOR the people". It's not there to serve its own interests or agenda...once it does, it's no longer a democracy. If you think that the current immigration policies of the US are "fine as they are" then you don't need to lift a finger and you can keep your $100. I'm still waiting for someone to show any compelling evidence to justify the current US-VN immigration policies. All the VN terrorists? No. All the VN wives coming here to go on welfare? No. All the VN people coming here to "steal our jobs"? No. Most VN nationals like their country and would return there to live if they knew they could enter and exit the USA without these ridiculous impediments. The notion that the USA would be overrun by migrants if we made our policies flexible and reasonable is a joke. Our excessive social programs that allow for too much abuse are not an issue with immigration - they are an issue of public policy.

Hmmm. Ok, first, this country is not a democracy. The founding fathers despised democracy. They equated it to mob rule which could only lead to anarchy. Our country is a democratic republic. It's a republic because it's ruled by a group of people with shared and distributed powers. It's democratic because that group of ruling people are elected by popular vote.

You think the notion that a more open admission policy would not lead to the country being overrun by migrants is naive. In spite of the current policies, which you view to be excessive and extreme, the US is home to more than 20% of the world's immigrant population. That's more than three times the number two country. It also has a larger percentage of immigrants with unlawful presence than any other country. So, even though the US has policies that you think are too restrictive, immigrants in large numbers STILL come to this country and STILL manage to overstay their authorized stay, and remain in the US illegally.

If everyone who obtained a visitor's visa in HCMC actually returned when they were supposed to, the consulate wouldn't have to be so strict about issuing visitor visas. If everyone who obtained a fiancee or spousal visa in HCMC actually married for love and not for a green card, the consulate wouldn't have to be so strict about issuing fiancee and spousal visas.

You think they stay in the US because it's difficult to get in? Balderdash! They stay in the US because they have a chance of earning enough money to support dozens of people back in Vietnam! They earn four times as much in 1 hour flipping burgers at McDonald's than they'd earn in a day in Vietnam.

The justification for the policies is simple - Vietnam is near the top of the list of high fraud countries. Every time a Vietnamese immigration fraud ring is broken up in the US it only increases pressure on the consulate to stop the fraud. Accept that as a fact, and be prepared to deal with it, and you have a good chance of succeeding. However, if you think you're going to wage your war against US immigration policy at the consulate in HCMC then you're going to fail. You've chosen the wrong battlefield.

[Mr. 2000 0]

Hmmm. Ok, first, this country is not a democracy. The founding fathers despised democracy. They equated it to mob rule which could only lead to anarchy. Our country is a democratic republic. It's a republic because it's ruled by a group of people with shared and distributed powers. It's democratic because that group of ruling people are elected by popular vote.

No, I don't think they did...actually...they did not at all. Maybe the Southern states had a problem with democracy but the North sure didn't. Publicly elected officials are what make this country a democracy...just about any US citizen can run for public office, even president - while it may be difficult for some people to gain traction the opportunity is there and it's not limited to a few families or "nobility". Not sure what your getting at here...

You think the notion that a more open admission policy would not lead to the country being overrun by migrants is naive. In spite of the current policies, which you view to be excessive and extreme, the US is home to more than 20% of the world's immigrant population. That's more than three times the number two country. It also has a larger percentage of immigrants with unlawful presence than any other country. So, even though the US has policies that you think are too restrictive, immigrants in large numbers STILL come to this country and STILL manage to overstay their authorized stay, and remain in the US illegally.

Are you really that dense? Why do you think they're here illegally? They entered illegally to bypass the excessive barriers that those who want to enter legally are faced with (still, with no good reason) and they stay here because they know if they leave they'll probably not get back in...it's the same idiotic mentality that was behind prohibition...and the resulting "black market" for alcohol which is now non-existent. Are people in a perpetual drunken stupor because alcoholic beverages can be bought just about anywhere? No...what a surprise.

If everyone who obtained a visitor's visa in HCMC actually returned when they were supposed to, the consulate wouldn't have to be so strict about issuing visitor visas. If everyone who obtained a fiancee or spousal visa in HCMC actually married for love and not for a green card, the consulate wouldn't have to be so strict about issuing fiancee and spousal visas.

LOL married for love? Dude, what the hell are you smoking? Marriage was NEVER about love. It was always about elevating status by merging two families together, so if anything, a VN girl marrying an American guy to get her out of the VN slums is EXACTLY what marriage was intended for. If you need a "contract" to bind you to someone you supposedly "love" then you are in fact not in love. As for the people who stay here after coming on a visitor visa - see above.

You think they stay in the US because it's difficult to get in? Balderdash! They stay in the US because they have a chance of earning enough money to support dozens of people back in Vietnam! They earn four times as much in 1 hour flipping burgers at McDonald's than they'd earn in a day in Vietnam.

How exactly is that a problem? If they're flipping burgers at McDonald's they're also paying taxes. What they do with their money is their business, and if they want to send it back to their family in VN then there is nothing wrong with that.

The justification for the policies is simple - Vietnam is near the top of the list of high fraud countries. Every time a Vietnamese immigration fraud ring is broken up in the US it only increases pressure on the consulate to stop the fraud. Accept that as a fact, and be prepared to deal with it, and you have a good chance of succeeding. However, if you think you're going to wage your war against US immigration policy at the consulate in HCMC then you're going to fail. You've chosen the wrong battlefield.

This is an entirely different topic. There is no justification for the policies and the fraud exists primarily because of the flawed US immigration policies. Where I come from - the USA - innocent until proven guilty AND this country was literally built on a population of diverse immigrants, mostly from Europe but also many from China and Mexico. If the US Embassy doesn't give me what I want then I'll do everything I can to make their lives hell until they do. Hopefully it will not come to that...but you can rest assured I'm one to lay down and let some bloated bureaucracy decide my personal future with baseless, misguided policies.

[BurningFinger 5]

Mr.2000,

I really feel where you are coming from. I personally do not believe that potential immigrants should be treated as guilty until proven innocent, but the HCMC Consulate does what it does for a reason. I don't approve of the way they conduct their business but I kinda see why. Look, none of us here are CO's. None of us know the kinds of fraud they have to deal with on a daily basis. For these people, this is their day jobs. They have seen every single scam that you can think of.....and more. It's just that they see it on a daily basis and we don't.

There is some truth in the fact that scammers commit visa fraud because of the restrictive policies enforced upon them. Most people from Vietnam that want to immigrate to the US just want to move here and just get a darn job so they can make money and live the good life. So you can make the argument that if that is all they want, why not just let them come in the US and live the good life? The answer to this lies in entitlement. A lot of these potential immigrants feel that they "deserve" to move to the US to improve their lives because they are poor. It is not the US government's job to take care of all the poor people in VN. That is the job of the VN government.

The root of the problem is poverty. If VN were a wealthy country, there would be no need for the VN people to want to migrate to the US as much as they want to now. In fact, VN could be on the "Visa Waiver Program" like most other very wealthy countries such as England, Holland, Spain, Japan, etc. Think about this: Why do we have this huge problem with illegal Mexicans in the US but NOT with illegal Canadians? Because Canada is a pretty wealthy country and the Canadian government takes care of it's people. The Mexican government continuously fails to bring it's people out of poverty and thus you have the strong desire to flee into the US. I bring back a point I made earlier on: Just because the country is poor does not give the people of that country the right to come in the US whenever they want.

If people do not agree with the current immigration laws, that is fine. I am totally fine with that. They should contact their Senator or Washington and get them to change the laws or vote somebody into office who is willing to change them. But until those immigration laws change, we MUST respect the laws we currently have in place. Either get with the program and win or be stubborn and lose. I wish you nothing but the best. Please do keep us informed on your progress Best wishes,

Travis

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

No, I don't think they did...actually...they did not at all. Maybe the Southern states had a problem with democracy but the North sure didn't. Publicly elected officials are what make this country a democracy...just about any US citizen can run for public office, even president - while it may be difficult for some people to gain traction the opportunity is there and it's not limited to a few families or "nobility". Not sure what your getting at here...

In a democracy, everything is up to the vote of the people. Thomas Jefferson, one of the Southerners you allude to, said "A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine." Jefferson founded the original Republican party on the premise that individual rights cannot be usurped by popular vote. It was Jefferson who wrote about our "inalienable rights" in the Declaration of Independence, and introduced the concept of a republic ruled by the "consent of the governed".

Are you really that dense? Why do you think they're here illegally? They entered illegally to bypass the excessive barriers that those who want to enter legally are faced with (still, with no good reason) and they stay here because they know if they leave they'll probably not get back in...it's the same idiotic mentality that was behind prohibition...and the resulting "black market" for alcohol which is now non-existent. Are people in a perpetual drunken stupor because alcoholic beverages can be bought just about anywhere? No...what a surprise.

Might I remind you that the same border they crossed to enter this country illegally can ALSO be crossed in the opposite direction, and the barriers to remaining in Mexico are more strict than those for remaining in the United States, yet I see no massive movement of Americans into Mexico. In spite of your arrogance, you made my point quite well. They immigrate illegally because there is a MOTIVE for them to immigrate, and that motive is stronger than the barriers, both physical and legal, that we erect to STOP them.

The comparison with prohibition is ridiculous. Immigration is not illegal. It is controlled. You just happen to disagree with the level of control. I don't.

LOL married for love? Dude, what the hell are you smoking? Marriage was NEVER about love. It was always about elevating status by merging two families together, so if anything, a VN girl marrying an American guy to get her out of the VN slums is EXACTLY what marriage was intended for. If you need a "contract" to bind you to someone you supposedly "love" then you are in fact not in love. As for the people who stay here after coming on a visitor visa - see above.

I don't know about your fiancee, but my wife was quite happy living in the "slums" of Vietnam. She had a respected job as a school teacher, and she owned her own home. She would have been just as happy if I had chosen to stay with her in Vietnam. If your fiancee feels differently then I am sorry for you.

How exactly is that a problem? If they're flipping burgers at McDonald's they're also paying taxes. What they do with their money is their business, and if they want to send it back to their family in VN then there is nothing wrong with that.

Very few people flipping burgers at McDonald's are earning enough to require them to pay any taxes. I have no problem with how people choose to spend their money. I do have a problem with my teenage daughter, who is a US citizen by birth, competing with illegal immigrants for an entry level job.

This is an entirely different topic. There is no justification for the policies and the fraud exists primarily because of the flawed US immigration policies. Where I come from - the USA - innocent until proven guilty AND this country was literally built on a population of diverse immigrants, mostly from Europe but also many from China and Mexico. If the US Embassy doesn't give me what I want then I'll do everything I can to make their lives hell until they do. Hopefully it will not come to that...but you can rest assured I'm one to lay down and let some bloated bureaucracy decide my personal future with baseless, misguided policies.

As I stated above, and you seemed to agree, the fraud exists because there is MOTIVE to commit fraud. The motive exists with or without immigration law.

Also, as I said in my previous post, the US still accepts far more immigrants than any other country in the world. Immigration law in the US is less restrictive than most other first world countries, and substantially less restrictive than the country that sends most of the illegal immigrants to our country.

I really don't see how you can "make their lives hell". You don't have much recourse because you're not in a position to make any demands. I still say you're fighting in the wrong battlefield. Arguing with the consulate is comparable to arguing with a private about the orders given to him by a general. You want to try to change things at the consulate then you can start by pressuring Department of State to issue new guidance to the Chief Consul. The consular officers are just doing what they are trained and told to do. They aren't going to change no matter how much hell you think you can put them through. If anything, you'll attract needless attention to your case, perhaps subject your fiancee to a grueling 3 hour interview, and then boot her out of the consulate with a white slip, and then stick a P6C marker in her file for good measure.

[Frank and Duyen 0]

I dunno if you can "omit" the mental exam over here, since it seems to be included in the necessary documents for marrying a Vietnamese. I can assure you, however, that they will not accept it and you WILL have to have another one done in VN.

You could try giving the Embassy a call and ask them, though I doubt if you'll talk to somebody who knows what they're talking about. I called twice to confirm the fees, and got two different answers.

2008 I had my mental exam in the US and was never asked to take another in VN.

[ttp 0]

2008 I had my mental exam in the US and was never asked to take another in VN.

Well, that's the first time I've heard it. Of course, this just means that the US part of the mental exam CANNOT and SHOULD NOT be skipped. Hopefully the OP reads this.

[What's next 1]

You have to do more than address red flags, you have to counter red flags. you should have some "green" flags. If i was trying to scam the consulate, I would be doing the same things most of us are doing. A couple of visits, pictures, phone/chat logs, money tranfers. A scammer does the same thing we do. I think it's important for us to disect the scammers' process.

The scammer will be funded by someone. Let's assume it'll be 30k plus expenses (plane tix, hotel, coffee money) and paperwork and stuff like that. Scammers exstablishs relationship, goes to VN, comes back and files paperwork. Exact same thing we do. Looking back on the package we submitted, it's probably not any different than a scammer's package.

Follow the money. The funder will want to keep cost down to a minimum. Therefore they will not pay for any children or any other family members to make the trip. Scammer will not buy tix for anyone else, because it's going to cut into his bottom line, beside, it's fake.

With this in mind, i suggest these as green flags.

If you have children, bring them along on your trip, paint the picture of a family unit.

Invite your family to the wedding/engagement. Best if your parents can come. It would be a huge plus, to have both sets of parents approve and support the relationship.

I would actually rather see ppl pay for the kids or parents to go to VN with them than to spend it on a laywer.

The consulate knows no scammer will buy extra tix for family members to attend a fake wedding/engagement. That just counter-intuitive.

Back to the scammer while he's in VN. So the family has already arranged the wedding/ceremonies. All he has to do is show up. So he shows up, goes through the hoopla, take some pics, then he's gone. He might hang around for a couple of days or two to take pictures. Then he's gone. Scammer focus on wedding pics and pics of the two together.

My third green flag is take picture with friends. Anybody can take pictures together, that's too easy. Scammer will not have time to go out with her frinds to take pics, plus the girl would probably be too embarassed to ask her real friends to take pictures with her fake husband. Having pics with friends shows you are part of her social life as well.

Obviously, these are just my thoughts and have no actually bearing on what the consulate will do. If we are trying to speculate through the eyes of the consulate, I believe these would be pluses.