H'WOOD MORONS

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The fact that there can exist a state/nationwide dialogue about whether or not biblical creationism should not only be introduced into schools, but into science classrooms (where it risks corrupting the subject being taught indicates to me that many of these apoliltical and polarised attitudes are the result of a poor standard of public education.

I remember balking at seeing school kids stressing out over recent changes in the school SAT's where they were suddenly being asked to (gasp!) write an essay, instead of ticking a box.

Teacher's in the US are of course among some of the most poorly paid public workers there are - even in some cases having to stump up their own money for classroom supplies...

[pedroh 21]

The fact that there can exist a state/nationwide dialogue about whether or not biblical creationism should not only be introduced into schools, but into science classrooms (where it risks corrupting the subject being taught indicates to me that many of these apoliltical and polarised attitudes are the result of a poor standard of public education.

I remember balking at seeing school kids stressing out over recent changes in the school SAT's where they were suddenly being asked to (gasp!) write an essay, instead of ticking a box.

Teacher's in the US are of course among some of the most poorly paid public workers there are - even in some cases having to stump up their own money for classroom supplies...

hell yea! my wife spends at least 500 bucks per year.. and she can only get $250.. that's very unfair.. they should get the whole amount they spent back in the taxes.. adding that the kids will never return books, will rip them, or loose stuff every week

[Fischkoepfin 1]

The fact that there can exist a state/nationwide dialogue about whether or not biblical creationism should not only be introduced into schools, but into science classrooms (where it risks corrupting the subject being taught indicates to me that many of these apoliltical and polarised attitudes are the result of a poor standard of public education.

I remember balking at seeing school kids stressing out over recent changes in the school SAT's where they were suddenly being asked to (gasp!) write an essay, instead of ticking a box.

Teacher's in the US are of course among some of the most poorly paid public workers there are - even in some cases having to stump up their own money for classroom supplies...

Right on! The problem with public education is that it is underfunded and completely driven by standardized tests supposedly making sure the students now their stuff. In reality, however, the students do nothing all year than to study for the tests. As a result, they lack basic critical thinking skills, think there is only one right answer, and have problems making connections.

Part of the problem is that schools are a local affair and the curriculum is determined by school boards, which are made up of people who usually have no experience with education, other than the fact that they used to be students back in the day, or subject matters because they have other jobs and don't have the time to follow recent developments in the fields the students study in school. As a result, they enforce standards that are not only out of date or ideologically skewed, but also restrain teachers, most of whom are actually educated in their fields and know that stuff, from teaching what students need to know in order to become educated citizens. And this has been going on for decades.

As an aside, the Department of Education announced last week that they now want to enforce similar standards for university and control the success of students by tracking them in a national database and by testing them on a national level, supposedly because America's college graduate can't read, write, or do arithmetic (something they should have learned back in elementary school). This of course is bound to change university education into an advanced version of high school education, taking away the last chance for many Americans to learn critical and complex thinking. Because, despite their reputation in conservative circles, most universities encourage their students to question the world around them and to think through complex subjects something desperately needed in a global economy.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The fact that there can exist a state/nationwide dialogue about whether or not biblical creationism should not only be introduced into schools, but into science classrooms (where it risks corrupting the subject being taught indicates to me that many of these apoliltical and polarised attitudes are the result of a poor standard of public education.

I remember balking at seeing school kids stressing out over recent changes in the school SAT's where they were suddenly being asked to (gasp!) write an essay, instead of ticking a box.

Teacher's in the US are of course among some of the most poorly paid public workers there are - even in some cases having to stump up their own money for classroom supplies...

Right on! The problem with public education is that it is underfunded and completely driven by standardized tests supposedly making sure the students now their stuff. In reality, however, the students do nothing all year than to study for the tests. As a result, they lack basic critical thinking skills, think there is only one right answer, and have problems making connections.

Part of the problem is that schools are a local affair and the curriculum is determined by school boards, which are made up of people who usually have no experience with education, other than the fact that they used to be students back in the day, or subject matters because they have other jobs and don't have the time to follow recent developments in the fields the students study in school. As a result, they enforce standards that are not only out of date or ideologically skewed, but also restrain teachers, most of whom are actually educated in their fields and know that stuff, from teaching what students need to know in order to become educated citizens. And this has been going on for decades.

As an aside, the Department of Education announced last week that they now want to enforce similar standards for university and control the success of students by tracking them in a national database and by testing them on a national level, supposedly because America's college graduate can't read, write, or do arithmetic (something they should have learned back in elementary school). This of course is bound to change university education into an advanced version of high school education, taking away the last chance for many Americans to learn critical and complex thinking. Because, despite their reputation in conservative circles, most universities encourage their students to question the world around them and to think through complex subjects something desperately needed in a global economy.

At the risk of deviating significantly from the topic, check out this article from the Guardian (a UK broadsheet). Its not just in the US that this is happening.

http://education.guardian.co.uk/egweekly/s...1844264,00.html

Seems to me that the most criticial thinking goes on in the humanities these days, and its precisely those subjects to which self-styled conservatives are laying ideological siege.

Edited August 17, 2006 by erekose

[Heracles 417]

lol.. incanada.. i think anti-God is too broad.. I'd say they just want to keep religion personal intead of making it public... I don't think all liberals are atheists or don't go to Church.. nor I believe all Republicans think gravity is thanks to God, or that earth is the center of the Universe...

mhh on the other hand. first example that comes to mind.. just when anti-segregationist laws were gonna be abolished for the first time.. Republican Strom Thurmond.. longest filibuster ever (24h).. and.. no civil rights and no end of segregation.. mhh. very good for America I suppose

I think this is one concept that the left has missed. In Australia, if 90% of the people believe in one thing then their views (yes be it religion) will certainly be represented by the state and federal governments. Especially when they are probably paying most of the tax that funds these public works. Yet, in the US the remaining 10% (aka non-religious groups) will probably have more of a say than the 90%..

Ok, people will disagree with me and probably say move back to Australia.

Which country has both an extremist unionist (aka socialist) party on one side and a conservative (capitalist) on the other yet will not play dirty politics at the expense of national security?? Hey, I don't know which country's system (laws etc) are better than the other but I do know which country has a much better lifestyle. A country where people of diverse backgrounds and views can get along. Hence no extremist attack in Australia..

Lets not even begin with the minority issue. How can one ever become 'equal' if they are branded a 'minority'??

[Alex+R 0]

I think this is one concept that the left has missed. In Australia, if 90% of the people believe in one thing then their views (yes be it religion) will certainly be represented by the state and federal governments. Especially when they are probably paying most of the tax that funds these public works. Yet, in the US the remaining 10% (aka non-religious groups) will probably have more of a say than the 90%..

You are trying to say that we should discard one of the fundamental tenets the US is built on?

Also, where do you get the idea that 90% of people are affiliated with religious groups and 10% are part of non-religious groups? I'm really confused by that. I am thankful every day that the US has separation of church and state. If the government does not protect the rights of a minority (yes be it religious) who will?

Ok, people will disagree with me and probably say move back to Australia.

You are welcome to live here, regardless of your views, because in the US we recognize the importance of diversity of opinion to making a stronger country. And, as you know, many Americans think like you so I'm sure you fit right in.

Which country has both an extremist unionist (aka socialist) party on one side and a conservative (capitalist) on the other yet will not play dirty politics at the expense of national security?? Hey, I don't know which country's system (laws etc) are better than the other but I do know which country has a much better lifestyle. A country where people of diverse backgrounds and views can get along. Hence no extremist attack in Australia..

Face it, Australia has suffered no attacks on par with what the US and Britain have dealt with because it is not as consequential in the world, not because it is some sort of utopia. I agree that we would be better served with two dominant parties who were further apart on the spectrum, but please don't tell me Australia is never corrupt. We've seen more than enough evidence to the contrary these past few years...

Lets not even begin with the minority issue. How can one ever become 'equal' if they are branded a 'minority'??

Uh, are you going to advocate a "colorblind" society? Because that really works for us :rolls eyes:... race issues are impossibly complicated and we're not going to solve them by pretending we aren't often segregated and that we don't see differences between people.

The question is - why WOULDN'T I dislike liberals? (esp. those in the gov't) They believe in everything I loathe - high taxes, taking all my hard-earned money and giving it to the poor; abortion; gay marriage; they're usually anti-God; etc etc. Soooooo...what's there to like? Don't you liberals hate what I, as a hardcore conservative Christian, believe in? Aren't you annoyed that I'm against gay marriage and abortion? Aren't you annoyed that I don't want my taxes going to the poor? Aren't you just a TEENSY bit irritated that I don't my kids in public school because it's secular?

If you've answered no, you're a big fat liar.

Uh, no. Why would anyone hate you for that? I disagree with you but I have no problem with your worldview as such.

Indeed. I DO think it's kind of adorably naive, however, that you (incanada and other conservatives of your ilk) believe you should keep all your money because of some vague 'even playing field' concept. Either that or greediness. I hope it's the former.

[Fischkoepfin 1]

At the risk of deviating significantly from the topic, check out this article from the Guardian (a UK broadsheet). Its not just in the US that this is happening.

http://education.guardian.co.uk/egweekly/s...1844264,00.html

Seems to me that the most criticial thinking goes on in the humanities these days, and its precisely those subjects to which self-styled conservatives are laying ideological siege.

Thanks for the link. Very interesting article.

And yes, the humanities are still the place where critical thinking is most encouraged, but that is also why they are targeted by the right. As if by learning to think critically and look at a topic from multiple perpectives, students would be less likely to be conservatives, which, as a I can attest from experience, is not the cause at all.

lol.. incanada.. i think anti-God is too broad.. I'd say they just want to keep religion personal intead of making it public... I don't think all liberals are atheists or don't go to Church.. nor I believe all Republicans think gravity is thanks to God, or that earth is the center of the Universe...

mhh on the other hand. first example that comes to mind.. just when anti-segregationist laws were gonna be abolished for the first time.. Republican Strom Thurmond.. longest filibuster ever (24h).. and.. no civil rights and no end of segregation.. mhh. very good for America I suppose

I think this is one concept that the left has missed. In Australia, if 90% of the people believe in one thing then their views (yes be it religion) will certainly be represented by the state and federal governments. Especially when they are probably paying most of the tax that funds these public works. Yet, in the US the remaining 10% (aka non-religious groups) will probably have more of a say than the 90%..

While 90 % of Americans believe in some sort of higher being (note: this means not just the Christian God), only a small group (around 30%) are considered Christian fundamentalists, meaning they are in a minority. Most Americans support not only abortion rights (60%) but also gay marriage (about the same number) and would like the church to keep out of politics. So, your claim that 10% determine the secular policies in the US is wrong, particularly because the government is currently not atheist in any way.

Edited August 17, 2006 by Fischkoepfin

[incanada1234 0]

The question is - why WOULDN'T I dislike liberals? (esp. those in the gov't) They believe in everything I loathe - high taxes, taking all my hard-earned money and giving it to the poor; abortion; gay marriage; they're usually anti-God; etc etc. Soooooo...what's there to like? Don't you liberals hate what I, as a hardcore conservative Christian, believe in? Aren't you annoyed that I'm against gay marriage and abortion? Aren't you annoyed that I don't want my taxes going to the poor? Aren't you just a TEENSY bit irritated that I don't my kids in public school because it's secular?

If you've answered no, you're a big fat liar.

Uh, no. Why would anyone hate you for that? I disagree with you but I have no problem with your worldview as such.

Did I say "hate me"? I said "hate what I believe in". Read more carefully next time.

I think this is one concept that the left has missed. In Australia, if 90% of the people believe in one thing then their views (yes be it religion) will certainly be represented by the state and federal governments. Especially when they are probably paying most of the tax that funds these public works. Yet, in the US the remaining 10% (aka non-religious groups) will probably have more of a say than the 90%..

Yep, it's always all about what will make the minority happy. Ugh.

[Ban Hammer 13,345]

Indeed. I DO think it's kind of adorably naive, however, that you (incanada and other conservatives of your ilk) believe you should keep all your money because of some vague 'even playing field' concept. Either that or greediness. I hope it's the former.

wow a dyed in the wool democrat. lemme guess, you want to take away from them and give to those who need it right?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Did I say "hate me"? I said "hate what I believe in". Read more carefully next time.

Nice piece of "Nitpickery".

Yep, it's always all about what will make the minority happy. Ugh.

Except the minority referred to are not actually a minority.

Edited August 17, 2006 by erekose

[incanada1234 0]

Indeed. I DO think it's kind of adorably naive, however, that you (incanada and other conservatives of your ilk) believe you should keep all your money because of some vague 'even playing field' concept. Either that or greediness. I hope it's the former.

Actually, I DON'T think I should keep all of my money. More than I get to keep now though.

While 90 % of Americans believe in some sort of higher being (note: this means not just the Christian God),

Oh really? Thanks for clarifying that.

Most Americans support...gay marriage.

Oh, so that's why gay marriage keeps getting voted down? I see now.

Did I say "hate me"? I said "hate what I believe in". Read more carefully next time.

Nice piece of "Nitpickery".

Nitpickery? It's true - I never said you liberals HATE ME for it. Just what I believe in. And of course, none of you disagreed to not being annoyed by the things I listed.

[Jenn! 918]

It's true - I never said you liberals HATE ME for it. Just what I believe in. And of course, none of you disagreed to not being annoyed by the things I listed.

What would the point have been in disagreeing? You had already said that if you disagree then you are a liar!

[Fischkoepfin 1]

The question is - why WOULDN'T I dislike liberals? (esp. those in the gov't) They believe in everything I loathe - high taxes, taking all my hard-earned money and giving it to the poor; abortion; gay marriage; they're usually anti-God; etc etc. Soooooo...what's there to like? Don't you liberals hate what I, as a hardcore conservative Christian, believe in? Aren't you annoyed that I'm against gay marriage and abortion? Aren't you annoyed that I don't want my taxes going to the poor? Aren't you just a TEENSY bit irritated that I don't my kids in public school because it's secular?

If you've answered no, you're a big fat liar.

Uh, no. Why would anyone hate you for that? I disagree with you but I have no problem with your worldview as such.

Did I say "hate me"? I said "hate what I believe in". Read more carefully next time.

Did I not say, "I have no problems with your world view as such"? I don't hate what you believe in either because it is not very conducive to dialogue at all. I don't even hate the fact that you result to insults sporadically. The only thing I come close to hating is the unwillingness of some conservatives to come up with sensical arguments to support their point.

[Alex+R 0]

Most Americans support...gay marriage.

Oh, so that's why gay marriage keeps getting voted down? I see now.

When was it voted down? I remember BANS being voted in, and vetoed actions...

[Fischkoepfin 1]

While 90 % of Americans believe in some sort of higher being (note: this means not just the Christian God),

Oh really? Thanks for clarifying that.

Most Americans support...gay marriage.

Oh, so that's why gay marriage keeps getting voted down? I see now.

Gay marriage gets banned because, despite claims from the right that the country is controlled by stark-raving mad liberals, most legislatures are actually in the hands of right-wing Republicans. Polls, however, show that most Americans are political moderates and as such support several issues condemned by the right, such as gay marriage, etc, because they view any regulations by the government as infringement on their constiitutionally guaranteed freedoms.

This is particularly interesting because back in the day, many people had similar issues when it came to mixed-race marriages, and even after it became more accepted it took legislatures a while to get any anti-miscengenation laws of their records (most recently Alabama in 2000). Just wait and see.