DOS Place of Birth Issue revisted.

[NickD 202]

Its more like the DOS is turning their heads on this subject rather than permitting it, but never admit to be causing the problem themselves.

From http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html

"The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a citizen of two countries at the same time. Each country has its own citizenship laws based on its own policy.Persons may have dual nationality by automatic operation of different laws rather than by choice. For example, a child born in a foreign country to U.S. citizen parents may be both a U.S. citizen and a citizen of the country of birth.

A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth. U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.

Intent can be shown by the person's statements or conduct.The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Claims of other countries on dual national U.S. citizens may conflict with U.S. law, and dual nationality may limit U.S. Government efforts to assist citizens abroad. The country where a dual national is located generally has a stronger claim to that person's allegiance.

However, dual nationals owe allegiance to both the United States and the foreign country. They are required to obey the laws of both countries. Either country has the right to enforce its laws, particularly if the person later travels there. Most U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States. Dual nationals may also be required by the foreign country to use its passport to enter and leave that country. Use of the foreign passport does not endanger U.S. citizenship. Most countries permit a person to renounce or otherwise lose citizenship.

Information on losing foreign citizenship can be obtained from the foreign country's embassy and consulates in the United States. Americans can renounce U.S. citizenship in the proper form at U.S. embassies and consulates abroad."

Just like the USA will not issue passport, many other countries also will not issue a passport unless you are a citizen of that country, so while the DOS may use the term, "dual nationality", it is the same as "dual citizenship". Just a play on meaningless words. Bottom line is that the DOS forces a person to maintain that citizenship because by listing that place of birth.

Then they introduce that infamous attorney word of "intent", the bottom line is the same, you do as a naturalized citizen are forced to maintain that extra citizenship if you want to simply visit your family, but then you are put in the position to prove that intent.

What really makes me weary of our DOS, they failed to answer my questions via a letter or an e-mail on this subject so I have written proof of it. But had me call that number instead so I have no written proof of their response. But they did respond to my e-mails with my vehement objections for the position they force naturalized citizens by putting the place of birth on US Passports, along with a copy of my wife's passport on that e-mail that I have printed out and filed, in the event that if this intent ever comes to light.

As you can tell, I do not trust our government and with good reason.

[antda 13]

NickD-I agree, as long as birth country is listed on a US passport, it is going to cause problems...

Hmm...I wonder too, what other countries 'demand' their citizens to retain their former citizenship, just because it is listed on a US passport....

Maybe other VJers can give more insight into this...Have other VJers experienced the similar problems such as you, in regards to this issue?

As for me, I honestly don't know...As I don't have a US Passport yet.....

But I do know that indirectly I am forced to keep my Canadian Passport because of this, as there is no birth country listed on such (they have an option to leave this 'blank') and I feel safer travelling with such instead of a US Passport...

And I am forced to have to legally renounce my other birth country ties partly because of what the US goverment is doing...(lol..I'm currently looking in that option...will post more updated on VJ about that when I get this done...)

I agree, we live in a democractic society here in America (at least that is what it is supposed to be)...And should be putting forth a voice on this issue and other issues that we are concerned about. Unforunately, many people just accept things by status quo and take things for granted, and sad to say, they are the ones that lose out in the end....

Likewise, I have yet to hear one good logical reason as to why place of birth is given on a passport and/or any other legal documents....Again, if it is because of the running for president issue, they can simply put 'cannot run for president' or 'can run for president' on those documents...simple, really...

And so what if things have been done for years...Umm...It's time to "change with the times"....

Lol..If we had that "things have been done this way for years" attitude still, we would probably still be living in the stone ages....with no technology.....Things change, people change...."It's time for change, America!".....

Sad to say too, that they are hypocrites in ways...They expect us to be loyal to the USA, and yet they don't give that same loyalty back....

So it is up to us to stick up for our own families and ourselves, instead of trusting the government to to such.....

As for place of birth on a passport....I agree, it can be anything...Heck, did you know that they even have a field for 'In the Air' and 'By sea' for those who are born that way.....(rare though...but yes that can be entered on a US passport...)

So why not have a field for hospital too? After all...If you want to take things literally....That is a place of birth, right? Lol..Sure beats the heck out of writing birth country.....Or then again, will that cause more problems...lol...Can oe discrimiate based on hospital of birth too? (just kidding...) Oh wait....the health insurance companies and medical professionals already discriminate because of health insurance...But that's another debate.....lol....

Ant

Bottom line is still, as long as her place of birth is on her US passport, will have problems entering that country regardless of whether she renounces her Colombian citizenship or not.

Am sure we are not the only one with this problem, and Colombia is not the only country that demands this.

Probably with me, an issue when you live in a country that is suppose to have a government by the people and for the people, that as a people, putting forth a voice on this subject. Yes, we have friends that just accept this, but if they want to live their lives as lambs and be led to slaughter, that is their option.

Have yet to hear one good logical reason why that place of birth is even on the passport, running for president is about the most illogical reason that could be given, in particular when you have the opposing party in power that has access to every secret in the book about that person. Even the DOS is incapable of giving a logical reason for this, hell that is the way its done and been that way for years!

And this practice is in direct contradiction to the oath a naturalized citizen has to give. They are forcing you to maintain a dual citizenship even though the dumb basterds don't like to call it that. And what is all this BS about family? Family always comes last in our procedures or laws.

These agencies can't even keep their terminology straight! One says, " Country of former nationality", the other says "Place of birth"! "Regarding the latter, that could be in a hospital!

[antda 13]

CaptainPenguin-Lol..Sounds confusing to me....But I do understand what you mean there....

Actually when filling out USCIS forms, they have two disctinct fields for "nationality" and "citizenship"....

And I have had to make a distinction between the two, when I have filled those forms out...lol...

For example, I have a birth country and a naturalized country and another naturalized country...

And I have some rights in all three of these countries...

However, I only consider myself citizens of two of these countries, of which I have legal documentations to claim such and that I feel as though I belong to in some way or other....

Though to the USA...I am only hold citizenship and allegiance to the USA, as mentioned in the oath of citizenship too....which is fine by me...

However...If that is the case, then why do they list former countries (regardless of what it is) on their legal documents...Seems hypocritical to me (and to others too).....

If the US wants us to be US citizens only...Then why even bother mentioning other citizenships and nationalities on their paperwork?

Seems easier and less problematic and non-discriminatory to mention the USA only on passports and other documents....

Sigh...

Ant

From a legal perspective there is actually a huge difference between citizenship and nationality.

Your nationality is something you cannot change, it is the notion of belonging to a nation or geographical region (not even necessarily a country) either mentally or legally with documentation (by holding a passport). Most countries consider you to be a citizen of a country you hold a passport of, but from a legal point of view you are not unless you consider yourself to be. While citizenship is also in fact the description of belonging to a nation, it is the one you hold an allegiance to, and the nation you decide to call yourself to be a citizen of.

In short, the DOS lets you have as many passports as you want as long as you are an american, because a passport does not necessarily make you a citizen of a different country even if the other country thinks it does.

Edited July 17, 2010 by Ant+D+BabyA

[antda 13]

NickD-

Btw...I posted that same government linked info before here, on another VJ message thread...

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/topic/253218-dual-nationality-for-us-citizensfrom-the-us-governments-view/page__p__3897116__hl__dual+nationality+__fromsearch__1#entry3897116

I agree, that the government is part of the problem too...

They are hypocrites in that way...Wanting its citizens to be loyal to the USA only, yet they cannot give the same loyality in return by not listing any former countries on their legal documents....

Lol..I feel betrayed by the goverment too, and yes, I have lost trust with them in regards to this matter....

They have "intent" too, in terms of wanting to discriminate, racial profile, or use negatively this information of former countries, which is sad and unfair really...And yes, the are wrong to do such!

So I figure...well if you "intend" to keep any former countries on passports/documents....then I "intend" to keep my former passports/documents.....

It works both ways for respect... So see it that way too....They don't respect you, then don't respect them back....lol..

Or better yet, voice your opinion when election time comes around....Vote them out....After all, we do live in a democracy..

And yes, by them not replying sufficiently and turning a 'blind eye' to the matter is not helping either....

My point is...Treat others as the way you would like to be treated....Which is the 'golden rule' that the government should follow too....If you want people to be loyal to the USA...then give that same loyality back.....

Just a few thoughts....

Ant

Its more like the DOS is turning their heads on this subject rather than permitting it, but never admit to be causing the problem themselves.

Just like the USA will not issue passport, many other countries also will not issue a passport unless you are a citizen othat country, so while the DOS may use the term, "dual nationality", it is the same as "dual citizenship". Just a play on meaningless words. Bottom line is that the DOS forces a person to maintain that citizenship because by listing that place of birth.

Then they introduce that infamous attorney word of "intent", the bottom line is the same, you do as a naturalized citizen are forced to maintain that extra citizenship if you want to simply visit your family, but then you are put in the position to prove that intent.

What really makes me weary of our DOS, they failed to answer my questions via a letter or an e-mail on this subject so I have written proof of it. But had me call that number instead so I have no written proof of their response. But they did respond to my e-mails with my vehement objections for the position they force naturalized citizens by putting the place of birth on US Passports, along with a copy of my wife's passport on that e-mail that I have printed out and filed, in the event that if this intent ever comes to light.

As you can tell, I do not trust our government and with good reason.

Edited July 17, 2010 by Ant+D+BabyA

[NickD 202]

When I bring up issues like this one to my congressman and senator, and I do, know them both personally, they are not even aware of this plus what other governmental agencies are doing. And how can they, since in the last 40 years, over 1,500 of these agencies have been created, and each are making their own rules even if it violates the US Constitution.

When a new president is elected, brings with him over 10,000 people, mostly because they helped him win the election, certainly not because they are competent. Emilio T. Gonzalez is a perfect example of this, the former head of the USCIS. Took the American Board of Immigration Attorneys acting in unison to get rid of him. One reason why most of us can't make head nor tails out if his changed forms. They use to make sense.

But we are only one person that has to put up with all this stuff.

I do have better success with my senator with a six year term, a congressman only works a year in his two year term, spends the second year trying to get re-elected and is nowhere to be found. But usually put off anyway, have two wars we have no business in, a crooked Wall Street, a failing economy and many other injustices to put up with.

Our government just has become way too complicated and the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. But still keep on trying. As I mentioned, even the DOS doesn't know why the place of birth is on our passports.