We're in a Recession Because the Rich Are Raking in an Absurd Portion of the Wealth

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Al Gore on twitter!

http://twitter.com/algore

[mawilson 2,133]

That's not really accurate. There are companies that are employee owned and operated that have been successful.

So where are these magical employee-owned companies and why aren't they hiring?

Why is the unemployment rate still close to 10 percent?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

So where are these magical employee-owned companies and why aren't they hiring?

Why is the unemployment rate still close to 10 percent?

Employee-Owned Companies Abound on

Fortune Magazine's Top 100 List for 2009

January 26, 2009 (Washington, DC) – The recently released list of top 100 companies by Fortune magazine shows that employee owned companies in the U.S. are becoming more prominent. Approximately 14% of the companies on the 2009 list are employee owned.

According to Fortune, a company has to be at least seven years old and have more than 1,000 U.S. employees to be eligible. Fortune conducts an extensive survey of employees to name the top 100 companies. Two-third of the score is based on survey responses and the rest on a Culture Audit which includes information about pay, benefits, demographics, and communications practices, among other criteria. The Great Places to Work Institute created the survey used by Fortune. A list of the top 100 companies can be found here - http://money.cnn.com...companies/2009/.

"Employee owned companies are out there doing exactly as intended, creating great places to work," said J. Michael Keeling, president of The ESOP Association. "In 2008, an economic performance survey conducted among ESOP Association members showed that 92% of companies believed that employee ownership was good for business. With this in mind, our nation's leaders should be looking to these companies and examining business practices and culture to help make our economy stronger."

The ESOP Association is the national trade association for companies with employee stock ownership plans (ESOPs) and the leading voice in America for employee ownership. The core cause of The ESOP Association is the belief that employee ownership will improve American competitiveness, increase productivity through greater employee participation, and strengthen our free enterprise economy.

http://www.esopassoc...ressrelease.asp

[Texanadian 10]

Robert Reich is saying that income should be more adequately dispersed so that all boats are lifted instead of just those in the top income bracket. There's no logic as to why most American's incomes have remained relatively stagnant over the last 40 years, while the upper 1% income has gone up exponentially. As he pointed out - the two largest income gaps in our history were followed by the two worst economic crisis and there is a correlation. With stagnant wages, most Americans have had to borrow their way to make ends meet. The rich don't pay high credit interest rates or ever have to resort to payday loans.

The rich tend to get richer because that is what they're good at. Somebody who has a Phd in engineering will always be able to negotiate a better salary than somebody who slid through high school. The real question is should we punish people for success? Some people are simply born with unique abilities. Even Mick Jagger, a famously liberal person pondered if the Rolling Stones should only earn 10% back in the 1970's with the government taking the other 90%. They wound up "living" in multiple countries to get away from the taxation system in place at the time. Too many people look at the wage imbalance as being tilted against the poor. The only thing high tax rates do is bring the rich back down to middle income or worse.

One of the few constants I see in 1929 and 2008 was government bungling of the finance system. In 1929, it was severe tightening of the money supply. In 4 years they shrunk the money supply by 30%. That's going to turn a recession into a depression. In 2008, you had a system were banks were forced to lend to people that you and I wouldn't lend $100 to. Bad credit? Verbal verification of job income? No money down? Here is your mortgage. And a teaser rate mortgage at that.

A consumer based economy is fine, so long as the good you are buying in a vast majority are made within your own nation. If you buy goods from another nation, and that nation doesn't buy the same back amount from you, then you're literally sending them money and never seeing it come back. It's a negative effect and possibly one of the greatest arguments for raising tariffs ridiculously high....

The only thing that high tariffs do is make it more expensive for the consumer to buy and harder for the business to sell to foreign buyers. The Smoot Hawley tariffs made the Great Depression worse. The money doesn't disappear when goods are bought from foreign countries. I've probably explained this before. But let's take a US dollar and a Japanese Yen. Assume a flat exchange rate, $1 = 1Yen. You buy $100 of electronics from the Japanese. What are they going to do with the money? Not much at first. Because there is nothing they can buy in Japan with $100 that they can't buy for 100 Yen. They'll have to sell those American dollars at a discounted rate. Say $100 = 95 yen. Multiply this by the thousands if not millions of transactions every day and the variable exchange rate system occurs. At some point in time, it becomes cheaper for the Japanese person to buy American goods and expensive for the American to buy Japanese goods. I noticed this with the Canada/USA exchange rates. When it was $1 USD for $1.60 Cdn back in the early 2000's, I bought very little from the US (lived in Canada at the time). Conversely, Americans were coming across the border and buying new cars and trucks at an alarming rate. Fast forward to the last couple of years when the exchange rate was roughly 1:1. Canadians were buying new vehicles from the USA.

Now suppose the American money that went to Japan didn't get spent by the Japanese buying US goods. Instead they bought German goods or Australian goods. The cycle still goes back to square one eventually. It's just that it takes a few extra steps along the way. The lost jobs from outsourcing are easily visible. The gained jobs are not as easily seen. The fact that your car cost $800 less because it was made with foreign rubber components means you can support your local restaurants by eating out more often. Nobody sees this. The cheap foreign produce at the grocery store means you have money to buy more expensive meat rather than ground round. But the only thing you notice is that these oranges were made in Mexico.

Add up the median cost of housing, health insurance, food, clothing and transportation, and you'll have a better sense of why so many Americans have borrowed their way to get by.

I often hear from the lefties that Americans should pay more for transportation. That gas prices are too low. Clothes are cheap and have always been cheap. It's just that people today want name brands instead of cheaper alternatives. For some reason people will spend more money on Nike Air shoes when they say "Jordan" on them. I wear New Balance shoes most of the time. For me it's a comfort issue rather than a brand issue. Health insurance is a whole debate in itself. Suffice to say, it's not the rich people who are paying for their health insurance that are driving up costs. It's the medicaid/medicare underpayments among a myriad of other problems with health care.

I don't know what data or measure the author is using to assert that wages are stagnant when adjusted for inflation, but the reality is that today the middle class has much more buying power and a higher standard of living. The amount of electronics, cars, clothing, housing, and other possessions that the middle class accesses and uses dwarfs anything from 70, 50, or even 20 years ago. Wages may or may not be stagnant, but the middle class has more access to goods and services than ever before. The economic collapse was caused by the simple greed of people who borrowed money to buy things they couldn't afford.

Free trade has allowed us to buy cheaper from abroad. Once you get government in there with tariffs and export quotas though, all bets are off. The notion that by taxing the consumer, that they will somehow benefit is confusing to me. The consumer doesn't get the tariff money in their pocket while at the same time buying the more expensive domestic item to offset the alternatively cheap foreign good. They simply pay more.

Ideally, the tax cuts of 2001 should be renewed and a new bracket added (The current highest bracket being 375,000ish?) at say 5 million @ 79%. That would discourage corporate raiding and encourage internal investment.

At the same time, I would lower the highest corporation tax to something like 20% and adjust from there.

You're going to kill the Googles of the world. Or they could simply move to another low-no tax country. I'd rather have Google workers paying 35% here and Google itself paying 20% than have them register in the Caymens.

I have to laugh when people here make it out as if Americans epidemically are simply living beyond their means. It's also quite a bizarre attitude to want to drive the country into the poorhouse, while the wealthy live it up - even in the worst recession ever.

I have traveled around the US and seen the North to south, east to west and can without a doubt say that outside coastal states, the average person is relatively poor. There are various parts of America that look like something out of a third world country country, yet you guys want them to cut back even more. Downsize from a trailer to a cardboard box perhaps and eat those Raman noodles [or even dirt] to get by; all why the wealthy just live it up for doing nothing. The only item I do see Americans overspending is vehicles. Many have trucks worth half their house, that get a good 10mpg.

The issue is not overspending. The issues come down to American corporations exporting jobs and putting profit over the country [ thanks crapmart], an unregulated and rouge real-estate market, wild-west consumer lenders, private companies that downsize at a seconds notice to protect profits and finally the reckless wall street. Then on top of that, you have a flood of cheap illegal labor will to work for almost nothing. Basically the perfect financial storm. It's no surprise that countries without these issues, have weathered the storm and offer a quality of life that most Americans simply cannot have period. e.g Australia and Canada.

I'd really like to hear where your tour of the United States was. From the sounds of it, you've traveled through Detroit, Oakland, as well as some of the rural areas of West Virginia and Mississippi. Possibly Arkansas as well.

Electronics naturally become cheaper the longer they are in production. Even housing has seen a fundamental change in construction. Someone mentioned their 1950s house of 900sq ft for 10,000 USD. My parents bought a house in the mid 1980s for about 30,000 with 2,000sqft. The prices are pretty comparible but.......I bet you will find that the 1950s house was built at a higher quality level with more detail than the 1980s house.

Basically in terms of architecture, America traded quality for size.

Housing.....in some cases yes, the quality was better then (mostly because people built homes to live in personally for long term). But in other ways, no. The 50 year old houses on the market were built with R-2 insulation. Or none at all! Single pane windows. One bathroom. At least the 20 gallon hot water tanks for a family of six are are mostly a historical note now.

Existence forces people to work accept wages that they don't agree to. If a person is starving they'll work 5 hours for a dollar (see third world countries).

That is true. The alternatives being?........3rd world country with minimum wages so that everybody starves. Pay them welfare for not working. The 3rd world countries tend to have bad education systems. Not a lot of specialized skills. Lots of people for a small amount of jobs.

I like the idea of co-operatives and employee owned businesses. I've been in them myself. The trouble with them is that they often aren't willing to take the drastic measures needed to STAY in business.

[Captain Oates 911]

Well I am saving my wad.

I have it in the bank of england - well 50% of it.

It stays there in case I have to vamoose out of this loony bin pronto and start again in England.

All the things I would like to hire people for - like swapping ####### cheney's batteries for flat ones, are illegal.

I even wash my own car coz it's healthy to do exercise.

Having dosh in the bank means freedom to me

I am more free than all the penniless flag wavers earning minimum wage or nothing in the USA

They think they are in the freest country in the world but in the words of Abba 'It's a rich mans' world' I live in a different world to them coz I can go anywhere and don't need a job - I am so free and it's all because of my bank account. It's a heady feeling.

I don't need to spend it and I drive a Toyota and wear Walmart shoes made in a sweat shop somewhere. Having money is not about consumption - it's about being independent and free.

I don't mind dying and leaving it to someone coz I am getting huge value out of it right now by just looking at the zeros on the screen and knowing my life marches to my drum - It means FREEDOM and That's better than 10 BMW's

Edited July 16, 2010 by saywhat

[Captain Oates 911]

:rofl: Another sorry soul trapped away from home because of a piece of aѕѕ? Poor you.

Oh I am at home because the world is my whelk. I can stride across 2 continents and live in either and speak honestly about what I find because of the cherished freedom of speech which only actually exists as long as you wave the right little flag to suit your location.

Same small minds in every country. Trapped by their circumstances and clinging to god and guns - well here they are. We Europeans cling to the pieces of #### which you mention and they are of the opposite gender at least ( we ask and tell so we know the deal before and not after) and it's better than clinging to an uncertain future like the typical American.

Long live BP ! Viva British Technology ! God save the Queen !

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

You're going to kill the Googles of the world. Or they could simply move to another low-no tax country. I'd rather have Google workers paying 35% here and Google itself paying 20% than have them register in the Caymens.

That's actually pretty much what I was saying, lower corporate taxes, keep taxes generally the same but add a new CEO bracket at a higher rate

Housing.....in some cases yes, the quality was better then (mostly because people built homes to live in personally for long term). But in other ways, no. The 50 year old houses on the market were built with R-2 insulation. Or none at all! Single pane windows. One bathroom. At least the 20 gallon hot water tanks for a family of six are are mostly a historical note now.

Thats again mostly down to technology. I was more refering to quality of natural materials like finishes etc. and general craftsmenship

That is true. The alternatives being?........3rd world country with minimum wages so that everybody starves. Pay them welfare for not working. The 3rd world countries tend to have bad education systems. Not a lot of specialized skills. Lots of people for a small amount of jobs.

No alternatives really, I was just highlighting that in certain conditions, people don't always have freewill if they want to survive (similar to what saywhat has said minus the prideful boasting) in response to someone's direct question of me. (Okay, Okay technically they do have free will still because they could commit suicide or rise against using methods outside of the law etc.)

.

[Captain Oates 911]

My last house was built in 1725

It wasn't particularly old for the area

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Oh I am at home because the world is my whelk. I can stride across 2 continents and live in either and speak honestly about what I find because of the cherished freedom of speech which only actually exists as long as you wave the right little flag to suit your location.

Same small minds in every country. Trapped by their circumstances and clinging to god and guns - well here they are. We Europeans cling to the pieces of #### which you mention and they are of the opposite gender at least ( we ask and tell so we know the deal before and not after) and it's better than clinging to an uncertain future like the typical American.

Long live BP ! Viva British Technology ! God save the Queen !

How very un British I have to say. So much boasting and referring to yourself as a European?

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

It's not boasting it's on topic. The only people who would think it was boasting would be those who didn't pay attention at school and end up scratting to make ends meet. Anyway, success is celebrated in the US where envy is unknown - which is the opposite of the UK apparently - or is it ?

and yes I am a European. I am a citizen of Europe as well as the UK -with a right to work and live in any European Country. It's great.

haha now that I can believe. Hope you used protection or is it against your religion ?

I am sure you have one...

Are you drinking? I thought you were much nicer person than this.

[Krikit 1,164]

Well, as much as I hate to disrupt the witty repartee, administrative action has been taken. Now I'm off to remove the offending posts. Thanks for playing, and have a good night.

[Captain Oates 911]

Are you drinking? I thought you were much nicer person than this.

Than what ?

I simply explaining that it's great to be well off and able to be free and it's not about spending money to impress others.

Since when was being well off evidence of not being nice ? Are only poor people able to enter the kingdom of niceness? and anyway - look at my speech compared to the filth of the turtle. Read back and look. I am much nicer than it wouldn't you say ?

At least I can help people out when they get themselves in a fix through their own lack of judgment, which is something poor people cannot do.

A lot of poor people are haters too - they hate BP coz it's those rich people etc. They are bitter and envious that's all.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Than what ?

I simply explaining that it's great to be well off and able to be free and it's not about spending money to impress others.

Since when was being well off evidence of not being nice ? Are only poor people able to enter the kingdom of niceness? and anyway - look at my speech compared to the filth of the turtle. Read back and look. I am much nicer than it wouldn't you say ?

At least I can help people out when they get themselves in a fix through their own lack of judgment, which is something poor people cannot do.

A lot of poor people are haters too - they hate BP coz it's those rich people etc. They are bitter and envious that's all.

I don't condone what he was saying, but you were using some nasty stereotypes in the process and baiting him along.

[Captain Oates 911]

I don't condone what he was saying, but you were using some nasty stereotypes in the process and baiting him along.

I posted what my situation was and that I didnt want to go on a spending spree - and he replied that I should get out of the country and go home and then started adding epithets.

That was totally unprovoked and his first answer to me. The first contact.

That was his very first post to me in reponse to my first post

How can you say that's nice and I am not ? That question isn't as off topic as it seems as this topic seems to be that only poor people are moral and rich people are to be deplored.

I thought it was ok in America to say 'Hey I am doing great'. Anyone who can't handle that is the one who doesn't belong - even if they were born here.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

I posted what my situation was and that I didnt want to go on a spending spree - and he replied that I should get out of the country and go home and then started adding epithets.

That was totally unprovoked and his first answer to me. The first contact.

That was his very first post to me in reponse to my first post

How can you say that's nice and I am not ? That question isn't as off topic as it seems as this topic seems to be that only poor people are moral and rich people are to be deplored.

I thought it was ok in America to say 'Hey I am doing great'. Anyone who can't handle that is the one who doesn't belong - even if they were born here.

Well some of your posts have been deleted. But I'm refering to the "Imperial" element of them. Thats why I thought it was odd that you mentioned that you were a European, because someone with that imperial view would never see themselves as European, it would be un British.

But maybe you don't hold such views and were just using them in the posts.