We're in a Recession Because the Rich Are Raking in an Absurd Portion of the Wealth

[Fandango 1,439]

Keep your personal insults to yourself, Lisa. You use every opportunity to make a personal dig at me - which says more about you than any shortcomings I possess.

It's not meant as a dig, Steven....I wouldn't be offended if you said the same about me, which as an aside, I would assume is also true.

I read your posts, and sometimes it's just shocking because I've never met someone who I'm so diametrically opposed in opinion with. That's all.

[mawilson 2,133]

It's not meant as a dig, Steven....I wouldn't be offended if you said the same about me, which as an aside, I would assume is also true.

I read your posts, and sometimes it's just shocking because I've never met someone who I'm so diametrically opposed in opinion with. That's all.

Some of the things he says scare the ####### out of me. Fortunately, he is the farthest

out there on the left-wing lunatic fringe of the Democrat party, and his views are not

shared and are not representative of their thinking.

[LaL 418]

It's ok, Gary. I've known for a long time. Anyone who's read your posts before knows its you.

Maybe being covert is still important because this account stated he voted for Obama

[JohnSmith2007 353]

Maybe being covert is still important because this account stated he voted for Obama

Don't forget that I also want single payer UHC and I think that the Tea Party is a bunch of nuts. But if that fits with what Gary says then I like the guy.

[^_^ 5,021]

Don't forget that I also want single payer UHC and I think that the Tea Party is a bunch of nuts. But if that fits with what Gary says then I like the guy.

You were always likable in your own speshul way, Gary.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

IMO the tax system is partially to blame. Corp. taxes are far to high and the top tier of income taxes are to low. I don't think anyone would disagree that in our modern economy there is a view towards short term profit and large executive payouts. In my mind the tax system of the 1940s -early 1980s discouraged this activity.

Ideally, the tax cuts of 2001 should be renewed and a new bracket added (The current highest bracket being 375,000ish?) at say 5 million @ 79%. That would discourage corporate raiding and encourage internal investment.

At the same time, I would lower the highest corporation tax to something like 20% and adjust from there.

[SMR 368]

Post #23:

Can you reference a source that backs up your claim that incomes for the Middle Class have increased at a steady rate over the last 40 years? More buying power and higher standard of living means their incomes have grown significantly, unless you are making the point that goods are cheaper now.

Look around. Consumer electronics are all around and even the lower echelons of the middle class have reasonable access to things that didn't even exist 20 years ago. The amount of clothing and shoes that the average American owns is astronomical compared to recent history. House sizes continue to grow and people are buying more and more new cars.

All I am saying is that if people today would simply content themselves with the lifestyle that would probably even be considered plush in 1980, they would be comfortable with money to spare. Ditch the big screen TV, the I-phone, the third computer and the boat. Shop at discount stores for last month's fashions and learn to cook instead of eating out. Buy a modest house with money down or rent an apartment.

[JohnSmith2007 353]

Look around. Consumer electronics are all around and even the lower echelons of the middle class have reasonable access to things that didn't even exist 20 years ago. The amount of clothing and shoes that the average American owns is astronomical compared to recent history. House sizes continue to grow and people are buying more and more new cars.

All I am saying is that if people today would simply content themselves with the lifestyle that would probably even be considered plush in 1980, they would be comfortable with money to spare. Ditch the big screen TV, the I-phone, the third computer and the boat. Shop at discount stores for last month's fashions and learn to cook instead of eating out. Buy a modest house with money down or rent an apartment.

Yep, you got it. I was raised in a middle class home in the 60's. We had one car, one TV and one phone on a party line. We lived in a 3 bedroom,900 sq.ft. house for the 6 of us that cost my father $10000 to build in 1957. We had all the food we needed, we were dressed in good clothes and we took a 2 week vacation every year. About as middle class as it gets. Today even the poorest among us has more "posessions" than I did but they are still called "poor". Judging from my own experiences I would say the middle class has advanced a great deal in the last 50 years.

[Heracles 417]

Steal from the rich and give to the poor? Well aren't ya a regular Robin Hood.

Yet when the wealthy do it using various means, like severely underpaying Americans or exporting jobs, then it becomes a case of capitalism.

As you very-well know, the rest of the first world is not as silly as Americans [particularly Repubs] to allow the select few that are wealthy to rule the roost; all while the rest of the country that does the actual work gets the raw deal. I always laugh when someone working 40 hour weeks on $50K is made out to be a bludger living beyond their means, while the wealthy live it up doing absolutely nothing.

[Heracles 417]

Look around. Consumer electronics are all around and even the lower echelons of the middle class have reasonable access to things that didn't even exist 20 years ago. The amount of clothing and shoes that the average American owns is astronomical compared to recent history. House sizes continue to grow and people are buying more and more new cars.

All I am saying is that if people today would simply content themselves with the lifestyle that would probably even be considered plush in 1980, they would be comfortable with money to spare. Ditch the big screen TV, the I-phone, the third computer and the boat. Shop at discount stores for last month's fashions and learn to cook instead of eating out. Buy a modest house with money down or rent an apartment.

I have to laugh when people here make it out as if Americans epidemically are simply living beyond their means. It's also quite a bizarre attitude to want to drive the country into the poorhouse, while the wealthy live it up - even in the worst recession ever.

I have traveled around the US and seen the North to south, east to west and can without a doubt say that outside coastal states, the average person is relatively poor. There are various parts of America that look like something out of a third world country country, yet you guys want them to cut back even more. Downsize from a trailer to a cardboard box perhaps and eat those Raman noodles [or even dirt] to get by; all why the wealthy just live it up for doing nothing. The only item I do see Americans overspending is vehicles. Many have trucks worth half their house, that get a good 10mpg.

The issue is not overspending. The issues come down to American corporations exporting jobs and putting profit over the country [ thanks crapmart], an unregulated and rouge real-estate market, wild-west consumer lenders, private companies that downsize at a seconds notice to protect profits and finally the reckless wall street. Then on top of that, you have a flood of cheap illegal labor will to work for almost nothing. Basically the perfect financial storm. It's no surprise that countries without these issues, have weathered the storm and offer a quality of life that most Americans simply cannot have period. e.g Australia and Canada.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Look around. Consumer electronics are all around and even the lower echelons of the middle class have reasonable access to things that didn't even exist 20 years ago. The amount of clothing and shoes that the average American owns is astronomical compared to recent history. House sizes continue to grow and people are buying more and more new cars.

All I am saying is that if people today would simply content themselves with the lifestyle that would probably even be considered plush in 1980, they would be comfortable with money to spare. Ditch the big screen TV, the I-phone, the third computer and the boat. Shop at discount stores for last month's fashions and learn to cook instead of eating out. Buy a modest house with money down or rent an apartment.

To a certain extent, I agree. However its a bit dangerous to compare say 1950 middle class or 1980 middle class to 2010 middle class using technology and construction. After all its oranges to apple to bananas. I myself probably live better that a 17th century Baron or Duke, yet I wouldn't claim I am upper class.

Electronics naturally become cheaper the longer they are in production. Even housing has seen a fundamental change in construction. Someone mentioned their 1950s house of 900sq ft for 10,000 USD. My parents bought a house in the mid 1980s for about 30,000 with 2,000sqft. The prices are pretty comparible but.......I bet you will find that the 1950s house was built at a higher quality level with more detail than the 1980s house.

Basically in terms of architecture, America traded quality for size.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Look around. Consumer electronics are all around and even the lower echelons of the middle class have reasonable access to things that didn't even exist 20 years ago. The amount of clothing and shoes that the average American owns is astronomical compared to recent history. House sizes continue to grow and people are buying more and more new cars.

All I am saying is that if people today would simply content themselves with the lifestyle that would probably even be considered plush in 1980, they would be comfortable with money to spare. Ditch the big screen TV, the I-phone, the third computer and the boat. Shop at discount stores for last month's fashions and learn to cook instead of eating out. Buy a modest house with money down or rent an apartment.

Products are much cheaper for one. Secondly, as Reich pointed out in the OP, Americans have borrowed their way to get by. Yes, there are many Americans that have gone into debt for things like big, flat screen TV's that they don't need, but by and large (and I'll provide you with stats on this), the Middle Class income has remained stagnant while the upper 1% income has increased dramatically. That has been partially offset by our enormous appetite for cheap products in China, but also because many Americans are up to their eyeballs in debt, and I would argue that much of that debt isn't from careless spending, but from buying into the illusion that when our economy was expanding, all boats would be lifted, which hasn't been the case for most working Americans.

[Brawler7 15]

Products are much cheaper for one. Secondly, as Reich pointed out in the OP, Americans have borrowed their way to get by. Yes, there are many Americans that have gone into debt for things like big, flat screen TV's that they don't need, but by and large (and I'll provide you with stats on this), the Middle Class income has remained stagnant while the upper 1% income has increased dramatically. That has been partially offset by our enormous appetite for cheap products in China, but also because many Americans are up to their eyeballs in debt, and I would argue that much of that debt isn't from careless spending, but from buying into the illusion that when our economy was expanding, all boats would be lifted, which hasn't been the case for most working Americans.

[mawilson 2,133]

Yet when the wealthy do it using various means, like severely underpaying Americans or exporting jobs, then it becomes a case of capitalism.

As you very-well know, the rest of the first world is not as silly as Americans [particularly Repubs] to allow the select few that are wealthy to rule the roost; all while the rest of the country that does the actual work gets the raw deal. I always laugh when someone working 40 hour weeks on $50K is made out to be a bludger living beyond their means, while the wealthy live it up doing absolutely nothing.

Without the wealthy, these jobs wouldn't exist in the first place and their employees would be

unemployed instead of underpaid.

In fact, that's exactly what's happening right now - companies are not hiring, and who can blame them

in this anti-business environment where job creators are portrayed as greedy shysters who destroyed

the economy (or worse, "living it up doing absolutely nothing".)

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Without the wealthy, these jobs wouldn't exist in the first place and their employees would be

unemployed instead of underpaid.

In fact, that's exactly what's happening right now - companies are not hiring, and who can blame them

in this anti-business environment where job creators are portrayed as greedy shysters who destroyed

the economy (or worse, "living it up doing absolutely nothing".)

That's not really accurate. There are companies that are employee owned and operated that have been successful. Although it may require outside capital to start a company, that doesn't mean it must come from the wealthy. Financial institutions can provide the needed capital to upstart such companies. The old paradigm that individuals with a large amount of wealth are what creates jobs is outdated and largely fictional.

Edited July 14, 2010 by El Buscador